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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 03-24-2011, 9:41 AM
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
I might point out that it's always legal to use standard capacity magazines. Use is not prohibited, despite how they were acquired.

In short, every high capacity magazine in California is "lawfully possessed" even if it was illegally acquired.
IMO, this is not correct.
  #42  
Old 03-24-2011, 9:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dilligaffrn View Post
Point them to or print out and hand them...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

9. No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

or have them read CPC 12020 12020 (b)(19-29) if literate
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Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
IMO, this is not correct.

See above. It's just like UOC - it's legal because nothing says it isn't. The code above does not say anything about posessing hi capacity magazines. The onus is on them to prove when and how you aquired them. Good luck with that.
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  #43  
Old 03-24-2011, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
IMO, this is not correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum
In short, every high capacity magazine in California is "lawfully possessed" even if it was illegally acquired.
Um, not quite.

Yeah, there's an elevated burden of proof to show you illegally acquired them.

However, if something is acquired illegally that doesn't mean it's legal - in fact, the item would still be contraband.

What is best said is that if someone starts asking you about hicap mags, quote the raw PC from 12020 and then STFU. If questioning continues, do not engage other than repeating the above and call a friggin' lawyer.
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  #44  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
there is a Calgun shoot going on there.... so toss clearing any of this up out the window. I am sure the guys at the calguns tables will be ok, but if you go back there alone, expect to be asked to leave if you use 30rd magazines..

would be nice if LC posted as to what they are doing or if this is cleared up.

check the events forum for a update on the calguns shoot.


And that is why I won't be attending that upcoming Calguns shoot at the Lytle Creek range. Until they understand the law and stop spreading FUD, I'll spend my $$$ somewhere else.

And if this kind of treatment is known to happen at Lytle Creek, then why is that upcoming Calguns event still going forward?!?

Pot... meet Kettle.
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  #45  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:21 AM
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Man, all this magazine phobia I've heard since Gabrielle Giffords got shot has me face palming and shaking my head in disbelief. People are treating magazines as if they're in some kind of special class of dangerous item that must be controlled and registered. I have a bunch of 20 and 30 round magazines that I acquired from the Army years ago. There was nothing controlled about them, just a foot locker sitting next to the arms room and available to anyone who needed them. Everytime I came back from the field, my ammo pouches were loaded with them and I'd just throw them in the trunk with my TA-50 and forget about them.

I only have a fraction of what I gave back to the Army before I left, but I still have them and for the last 30 + years they've been very good and not caused any mayhem against the general public.

The California State government needs to get a grip and come back to reality. Magazines in excess of 10 rounds aren't the problem, criminals are. And those ranges, seriously ? If they spent as much time reading the laws, as they do spreading F U D, they'd be up to speed and not look like a bunch of idiots.
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  #46  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
And that is why I won't be attending that upcoming Calguns shoot at the Lytle Creek range. Until they understand the law and stop spreading FUD, I'll spend my $$$ somewhere else.

And if this kind of treatment is known to happen at Lytle Creek, then why is that upcoming Calguns event still going forward?!?

Pot... meet Kettle.
The event will likely go forward, the venue may change depending on the outcome of contact and hopefully education.
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  #47  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:31 AM
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I wonder how they would feel if I brought any of my 10/22's to that range.

I don't remember the last time I could find one of my regular 10rd'ers. They've all seemed to go missing over the years. I do however have about a dozen or so butler creek 25rd'ers that I've had forever and are the only mags that I use.

Seriously, they are the only legal magazines I have to use with my 10/22's.
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  #48  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:40 AM
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I still don't understand CA std cap magazine law.... The more I read about it , the less I understand it ...

If a guy has all kinds of magazines that they had for several years, do they have to show how they got them all?!
I thought it was legal to HAVE and USE them..
  #49  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
I still don't understand CA std cap magazine law.... The more I read about it , the less I understand it ...
That's by design.

Quote:
If a guy has all kinds of magazines that they had for several years, do they have to show how they got them all?!
No.

Quote:
I thought it was legal to HAVE and USE them..
Correct.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
  #50  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:15 AM
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Just to verify, if I owned a Saaga, featureless and also owned a pre-ban 20 round circle 10, I would be able to use this magazine in my rifle.

Would I need a bullet button of some type?
  #51  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zvardan View Post
Just to verify, if I owned a [Siaga], featureless and also owned a pre-ban 20 round circle 10, I would be able to use this magazine in my rifle.
yes.

Quote:
Would I need a bullet button of some type?
No. In fact, due to idiocy in the laws, using a >10 rd mag in a rifle that has the capacity to accept fixed magazines (e.g. having a bullet button) would be manufacturing an assault rifle.

Do NOT use a bullet button with any >10 rd mag.

Last edited by curtisfong; 03-24-2011 at 5:44 PM..
  #52  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:37 AM
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You sir, have made my day.
  #53  
Old 03-24-2011, 12:36 PM
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Who has been arrested or harassed by leos with featureless rifles and hi cap magazines?
  #54  
Old 03-24-2011, 3:05 PM
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Default LC range

I'm glad to see so much talk going on about Lytle Creek range.
I used to plan and host the So-Cal Beltfed events there over the last several years.

First off:
I have no beef with there staff and I have been dealing with these issues and others for awhile. The Range manager Jeff and before him Connie have been very supportive of our events but over the past few years issues with the forest service have been coming up. I have tried to not say anything publically about it because I didn't want to cause a problem for the range but the more time that goes by and the more this issue isn't dealt with and resolved the worse it will get and pretty soon it will become acceptable and harder to resolve.

So:

First off it's not the range thats making the problem it is the Forest Ranger.
It seems to me that he flat out could care less about the flow chart or your AW paper work.

First it was the problem with the .50BMG round at LC. He said a ricochet was going to travel over the mountain and hit somebody on the 138 or what ever the highway is 7 miles over on the backside of the mountain. We tried to have meetings with the forest ranger for over a year . We had some expert Marine snipers willing to go talk to the guy but he never had time. They banned the .50BMG round but said the 50DTC refered to as the .510 round was ok. They actually said .510 . Go take a micrometer to a .50BMG projo and a .50DTC projo.
Bingo .510 will be your answer.
So whats up you say. It's the Rangers decision and the range has to obey it.

Then came the hi-cap issue. no receipt no shoot.
Even if you show proof that you own a RAW unless you can show a reciept for the Hi-cap mag you can't shoot it there.
I went over all this with the range last Nov. The range doesn't want to make waves because it's on leased land from the forest service . The forest Ranger is the problem. He doesn't care.
He is the one setting the rules. I explaned to guys at LC even the CA DOJ says any hi-cap mags in Calif. before Jan 1,2000 are legal to own no were does it say you have to have a receipt for them. They understand but there hands are tied.
Perhapse all this being brought up and talked about and some of the Calguns staff getting involved will help get this issue taken care of. I really liked going to the range and had a good repore with the RSO's but this issue has been keeping us from hosting any more events there. Untill this issue is resolved I will be taking my money elsewere. I have been recently discussing this issue with a local law enforcment officer who is willing to help should Gene what to contact me I would be more than willing to help get you in contact with him and help solve this issue.

I hope your event goes well should you decide to have it there , or at another venue.

George W
  #55  
Old 03-24-2011, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George W View Post
First off it's not the range thats making the problem it is the Forest Ranger.

We tried to have meetings with the forest ranger for over a year . We had some expert Marine snipers willing to go talk to the guy but he never had time.

So whats up you say. It's the Rangers decision and the range has to obey it.

The forest Ranger is the problem. He doesn't care.
He is the one setting the rules. I explaned to guys at LC even the CA DOJ says any hi-cap mags in Calif. before Jan 1,2000 are legal to own no were does it say you have to have a receipt for them. They understand but there hands are tied.

I think we need a name here.

The forestry service can't just make up arbitrary laws that don't exist.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #56  
Old 03-24-2011, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
I think we need a name here.

The forestry service can't just make up arbitrary laws that don't exist.
The Lytle Creek Ranger Station is just a couple miles down the road:

Lytle Creek Ranger Station
1209 Lytle Creek Road, CA 92358
(909) 382-2851 ‎
  #57  
Old 03-24-2011, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George W View Post

First off it's not the range thats making the problem it is the Forest Ranger.
It seems to me that he flat out could care less about the flow chart or your AW paper work.

First it was the problem with the .50BMG round at LC. He said a ricochet was going to travel over the mountain and hit somebody on the 138 or what ever the highway is 7 miles over on the backside of the mountain. We tried to have meetings with the forest ranger for over a year . We had some expert Marine snipers willing to go talk to the guy but he never had time. They banned the .50BMG round but said the 50DTC refered to as the .510 round was ok. They actually said .510 . Go take a micrometer to a .50BMG projo and a .50DTC projo.
Bingo .510 will be your answer.
So whats up you say. It's the Rangers decision and the range has to obey it.
Then came the hi-cap issue. no receipt no shoot.
Even if you show proof that you own a RAW unless you can show a reciept for the Hi-cap mag you can't shoot it there.
I went over all this with the range last Nov. The range doesn't want to make waves because it's on leased land from the forest service . The forest Ranger is the problem. He doesn't care.
He is the one setting the rules. I explaned to guys at LC even the CA DOJ says any hi-cap mags in Calif. before Jan 1,2000 are legal to own no were does it say you have to have a receipt for them. They understand but there hands are tied.
Perhapse all this being brought up and talked about and some of the Calguns staff getting involved will help get this issue taken care of. I really liked going to the range and had a good repore with the RSO's but this issue has been keeping us from hosting any more events there. Untill this issue is resolved I will be taking my money elsewere. I have been recently discussing this issue with a local law enforcment officer who is willing to help should Gene what to contact me I would be more than willing to help get you in contact with him and help solve this issue.

I hope your event goes well should you decide to have it there , or at another venue.

George W
The bold above is added to point out that a single person (line level ranger) is apparently making up rules, regulations and imposing restrictions as if this is HIS personal property.

The LARGE bold above is to point out the phrases that, to me, imply that he is (without authority, illegally?) overstepping his duties and authority.

INAL, but to me it sounds like under the color of authority he is effectively violating people's rights by limiting behavior that is actually legal, based only on a whim or what he mistakenly thinks is legal/illegal. This somehow MUST be violating some sort of protocol, policy or law. If not then apparently the FED laws are about as F-d up as CA.

Do we, as law abiding, tax paying citizens, have any recourse against this jack-hole who is unilaterally making up Forest Service policy?
  #58  
Old 03-24-2011, 4:10 PM
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San Bernardino National Forest

Supervisor's Office
602 S. Tippecanoe Ave.
San Bernardino, CA 92408
(909) 382-2600 (Voice)

Jody Noiron, Forest Supervisor
Thomas Gillett, Deputy Forest Supervisor

See also the Contact Us link.
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Last edited by Librarian; 03-24-2011 at 4:13 PM..
  #59  
Old 03-24-2011, 5:22 PM
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The only problem I've ever had was at the range with unimformed fellow shooters that couldn't wait to tell me that the RAW w/ high-caps was illegal..
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2011, 5:37 PM
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I have been questioned there on two different occassions: once for not having a BB on an AR, but I explained it was featureless and the guy said "Good to go", no further issues. The second time I was asked for my papers for my AR with features, I showed him the BB and that the magazine did not come out when pushed and the guy said "Good to go", no further issues.....

I have been able to shoot surplus ammo there once the rain soaked the landscape....

Unfortunately for me I have had nothing but great experiences there, Sorry you and others have not.
  #61  
Old 03-24-2011, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmncali View Post
I have been questioned there on two different occassions: once for not having a BB on an AR, but I explained it was featureless and the guy said "Good to go", no further issues. The second time I was asked for my papers for my AR with features, I showed him the BB and that the magazine did not come out when pushed and the guy said "Good to go", no further issues.....

I have been able to shoot surplus ammo there once the rain soaked the landscape....

Unfortunately for me I have had nothing but great experiences there, Sorry you and others have not.

I've never been questioned about shooting an AR with a BB or a Keltech with a release & 30 rnd pre ban mag at my ranges. You've been questioned twice!!! - I'd never go back after those BAD (i.e. definition of bad range) experiences.
  #62  
Old 03-24-2011, 9:47 PM
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Going back to the original post, I got questioned my last trip to A Place to Shoot in Valencia with my Mini-14 in OEM configuration with detachable 30 & 40 rnd mags. The RO just asked in they were preban and went on his way. The same RO checked my10/20 magazines for my BB AR. Again, he just asked if they held more than 10 rnds and went on his way.

The ROs were nice enough, I would just prefer less attention from them when I go shoot. The funny thing is at Angeles where I have always known them to be tighter rule wise has never said anything to me.
  #63  
Old 03-24-2011, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red State View Post

The range officer told me that unless I switched to a 10rd magazine, I would have to leave. His understanding of the issue was that while high cap magazines from the 1990s were legal to own, you are not allowed to use them in your rifle - unless the specific rifle was registered as an assualt weapon.
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red State View Post
Have any of you ever run into trouble while legally using your preban magazines?

I was at a range today and they told me that I could not shoot my Mini14 while using 20 or 30 rd magazines.

The range officer told me that unless I switched to a 10rd magazine, I would have to leave. His understanding of the issue was that while high cap magazines from the 1990s were legal to own, you are not allowed to use them in your rifle - unless the specific rifle was registered as an assualt weapon.

He seemed genuinely concerned that the local sheriff/officer/ranger would really cause some trouble over this issue.

In short, is it illegal to use a lawfully possesed high capacity magazine?
What a horrible story. Don't go back.

Shoot in the NF or in the desert.
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
I say boycott Lytle Creek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW67 View Post
I already am boycotting Lytle Creek...
LOL.
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red State View Post
I was at a range today and they told me that I could not shoot my Mini14 while using 20 or 30 rd magazines.
Pre-ban high-cap mags in a featureless rifle? What's the problem sir?


40-rounder, Mini-14:
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Old 03-25-2011, 7:53 AM
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It sounds like the same FUD that is going on at Bee Canyon with the USFS Rangers. I sense a pattern with these rangers........

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=393368
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  #68  
Old 03-25-2011, 8:41 AM
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Tell him to mind his own goddamn business and refer him to the High Cap mag thread here on calguns.
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  #69  
Old 03-25-2011, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Soldier415 View Post
Tell him to mind his own goddamn business and refer him to the High Cap mag thread here on calguns.
The USFS ranger is minding his business: YOU (being on his jurisdiction). And no, he can't be bothered to read the threads here on Calguns. . . but he can confiscate your property and make your life miserable.
  #70  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark Paladin View Post
The USFS ranger is minding his business: YOU (being on his jurisdiction). And no, he can't be bothered to read the threads here on Calguns. . . but he can confiscate your property and make your life miserable.
You mean he can try!!!



Anyone acting as a LEO who either doesn't know or understand the LAW, needs to seek employement in another field!!! He doesn't get to make up laws as he goes along. He isn't Judge Dredd. I don't tolerate LEOs who don't know the law or think anything they say is suddenly "The Law".

IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.

And he might have a darn hard time stealing the legally owned property from some folks.

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Last edited by Sniper3142; 03-25-2011 at 10:07 AM..
  #71  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by George W View Post
I'm glad to see so much talk going on about Lytle Creek range.
I used to plan and host the So-Cal Beltfed events there over the last several years.

First off:
I have no beef with there staff and I have been dealing with these issues and others for awhile. The Range manager Jeff and before him Connie have been very supportive of our events but over the past few years issues with the forest service have been coming up. I have tried to not say anything publically about it because I didn't want to cause a problem for the range but the more time that goes by and the more this issue isn't dealt with and resolved the worse it will get and pretty soon it will become acceptable and harder to resolve.

So:

First off it's not the range thats making the problem it is the Forest Ranger.
It seems to me that he flat out could care less about the flow chart or your AW paper work.

First it was the problem with the .50BMG round at LC. He said a ricochet was going to travel over the mountain and hit somebody on the 138 or what ever the highway is 7 miles over on the backside of the mountain. We tried to have meetings with the forest ranger for over a year . We had some expert Marine snipers willing to go talk to the guy but he never had time. They banned the .50BMG round but said the 50DTC refered to as the .510 round was ok. They actually said .510 . Go take a micrometer to a .50BMG projo and a .50DTC projo.
Bingo .510 will be your answer.
So whats up you say. It's the Rangers decision and the range has to obey it.

Then came the hi-cap issue. no receipt no shoot.
Even if you show proof that you own a RAW unless you can show a reciept for the Hi-cap mag you can't shoot it there.
I went over all this with the range last Nov. The range doesn't want to make waves because it's on leased land from the forest service . The forest Ranger is the problem. He doesn't care.
He is the one setting the rules. I explaned to guys at LC even the CA DOJ says any hi-cap mags in Calif. before Jan 1,2000 are legal to own no were does it say you have to have a receipt for them. They understand but there hands are tied.
Perhapse all this being brought up and talked about and some of the Calguns staff getting involved will help get this issue taken care of. I really liked going to the range and had a good repore with the RSO's but this issue has been keeping us from hosting any more events there. Untill this issue is resolved I will be taking my money elsewere. I have been recently discussing this issue with a local law enforcment officer who is willing to help should Gene what to contact me I would be more than willing to help get you in contact with him and help solve this issue.

I hope your event goes well should you decide to have it there , or at another venue.

George W
Well at least we have some answers now. They maybe for the wrong reason or mis-information, but at least we have some info for a pointed discussion. I shoot here frequently with no issues, but I have not been there in 6 months. Is Gene or any other well spoken people here going to address this with the rangers office? I hate to ask somebody else to do the dirty work, but I dont feel well versed enough to take this one on, but I am willing to help.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
You mean he can try!!!

And he might have a darn hard time stealing the legally owned property from some folks.
Your signature is right. Internet talk is cheap.

What you're saying is you'll actually shoot it out with a ranger who tries to confiscate your property? Is your life really worth that little?
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  #73  
Old 03-25-2011, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
Your signature is right. Internet talk is cheap.

What you're saying is you'll actually shoot it out with a ranger who tries to confiscate your property? Is your life really worth that little?
One,
I did not say anything about me (or anyone else) shooting anyone in my post.

Two,
I value my life a great deal. I also value my rights and my property.

Three,
I will not tolerate bullies and thugs... ever; regardless of their position. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem.
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  #74  
Old 03-25-2011, 1:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Um, not quite.

Yeah, there's an elevated burden of proof to show you illegally acquired them.

However, if something is acquired illegally that doesn't mean it's legal - in fact, the item would still be contraband.

What is best said is that if someone starts asking you about hicap mags, quote the raw PC from 12020 and then STFU. If questioning continues, do not engage other than repeating the above and call a friggin' lawyer.
IMO, unless the "inquirer" is conversant with 12020, rather than just reciting it, might it be even better to also politely offer a printout to him or her of the pertinent sections of 12020. I think it would strengthen the impression that you know whereof you speak. Showing cheerful confidence can't have anything but a salutory effect. But if it goes beyond this point, the advice to STFU is absolutely golden.
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Old 03-25-2011, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
One,
I did not say anything about me (or anyone else) shooting anyone in my post.

Two,
I value my life a great deal. I also value my rights and my property.

Three,
I will not tolerate bullies and thugs... ever; regardless of their position. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem.
The way I read Sniper3142's post, the Cop would be in trouble for theft, civil right violations and maybe a little moral turpitude issue going forward, in the LE context that is a bad thing when it comes to testifying in court.
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  #76  
Old 03-25-2011, 2:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
One,
I did not say anything about me (or anyone else) shooting anyone in my post.
You may want to re-read and/or edit these statements then, as they're clearly implicating SOMETHING bad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
You mean he can try!!!

And he might have a darn hard time stealing the legally owned property from some folks.

Quote:
Three,
I will not tolerate bullies and thugs... ever; regardless of their position. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem.
What would make you think I have a problem with that or you?

Quote:
Anyone acting as a LEO who either doesn't know or understand the LAW, needs to seek employement in another field!!! He doesn't get to make up laws as he goes along. He isn't Judge Dredd. I don't tolerate LEOs who don't know the law or think anything they say is suddenly "The Law".

IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.
On this, we agree 100% with each other.
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Quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
  #77  
Old 03-25-2011, 4:06 PM
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The LEO ranger is a real piece of work. I have seen him more than once with someone pulled over about 100 yards down the road from the range, taking all the guns out of the vehicle. My understanding is that he did catch a real bad guy at the range one time with a stolen US property MG. They must have given him a gold star and now he wants to get another one really, really bad.
  #78  
Old 03-25-2011, 4:15 PM
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Call his boss.
  #79  
Old 03-25-2011, 7:37 PM
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thats why i dont go to public ranges.Even if you are in the right theres always that newer gun owner who will get jealous and rat you off to a range officer.I will stick to BLM for my RAW and hi caps in my mini and 10/22.
  #80  
Old 03-26-2011, 9:03 AM
45DAVID1 45DAVID1 is offline
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I had the same issue with my Mini-14 at Lytle Creek. I too was asked to put all my "standard" capacity magazines away and only use 10 round magazines. I packed up and left since I don't like being harassed about my legal to own items. Lytle Creek will no longer get my business until the local LEO agencies out there stop their harassment of law abiding citizens.
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