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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-01-2011, 9:07 PM
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Default Can I have a LEO buy an off roster and "sell" to me?

If I have a LEO friend, is it OK for me to have him buy say a Glock gen 4 then "sell" it to me PPT for the same price?
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2011, 9:13 PM
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The situation is supposed to be less direct; saying that makes it appear as if the sale is contemplated to avoid the Roster, and that intent is Bad.

However, if a LEO buys a gun, on or off Roster, and later decides it just isn't what s/he wants, s/he is free to sell such a personally owned weapon via PPT, just like any other CA resident.
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  #3  
Old 04-01-2011, 9:15 PM
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He/she can not specifically buy the gun for you and PPT it. It is against the law to purchase a firearm with the intent to bypass the roster. Now if said LEO were to buy the firearm for personal use, then decide he/she needed the money or didn't like the gun, they could PPT the firearm to you, except any 11+ magazines.

LEOs run risky ground with this one and it can sometimes be a violation of their dept policy too.

Does it happen: yes
Good idea: not really
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Old 04-01-2011, 9:17 PM
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I don't remember if I've said this or not but did you use the search button??? This has been discussed like two times in the last 30 days alone. If he buys it to sell it to you then I think it is a straw purchase.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:05 PM
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I have read posts that say DOJ is paying more than the usual attention to these sales. I would not be surprised, particularly if the LEO turns around and buys another of the same model pistol.
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:03 AM
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I guess it would depend on the honor and integrity of the LEO.

And yours.

A LEO should not be asked to do this, and should refuse if asked.

If the purpose is to circumvent the roster.
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
I guess it would depend on the honor and integrity of the LEO.

And yours.

A LEO should not be asked to do this, and should refuse if asked.

If the purpose is to circumvent the roster.
Rosters are for Roosters!
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  #8  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lrchops View Post
Rosters are for Roosters!
What's your point as it relates to this thread?
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:24 AM
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I suppose my point is that Honor has nothing to do with it! These gun laws are rediculous and chipping away at our rights and good common sense order!
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:31 AM
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I think the point may be using the word "integrity" and "California handgun roster" looks a little strange.

I suppose you could make the argument that even if the state stoops to such low measures, we do not have to join them. But I say, as patriots no less, we should use every legal means necssary to circumvent these unconstitutional and corrupt practices.

I am embarrassed by my state and for it. If I have to go to greater lengths to avoid getting my hands dirty dealing with Sacramento's filthy polices, I will.

Of course, if what the OP is suggesting is illegal, than of course I do not support it. But there's also the question of moral right and wrong, and the roster is wrong.

and for roosters of course...
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  #11  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:32 AM
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I agree that the gun laws are ridiculous.

However, are you claiming that as a LEO, it's got nothing to do with honor and integrity, to use a straw purchase to circumvent these laws?

If so, please PM me, I've a couple off roster guns I'd love to have.

Maybe you would purchase them for me.
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
I agree that the gun laws are ridiculous.

However, are you claiming that as a LEO, it's got nothing to do with honor and integrity, to use a straw purchase to circumvent these laws?

If so, please PM me, I've a couple off roster guns I'd love to have.

Maybe you would purchase them for me.
This really isn't a "Straw Purchase". A straw purchase is when the person buying the weapon is planning on giving or selling it to someone that is known not to be able to buy a weapon and not going through the proper channels to register the weapon in the new owners name.

I'm sure all LEO's would not do that.

And, I'm sure all LEO's would make sure that any weapon they sell would be legally transferred into the new owners name.
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  #13  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:42 AM
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If the purpose is to circumvent the roster

This certainly is a straw purchase, by your own definition

I cannot purchase an off roster gun.

I go to a LEO buddy of mine and say, will you buy this off roster gun for me?

He buys it and sells it to me the same day.

This is a straw purchase.

So, how about it Lrchops?

Is it about honor and integrity?

Or just fear of getting caught?
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  #14  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:52 AM
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I would think most LEO's don't see any upside to doing this or you'd see the marketplace full of off-roster handguns being sold by LEO's who have extra cash to invest in them so they could resell them. I mean, how hard would it be to compile a list of off list items that are in demand?
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  #15  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:55 AM
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Legality of it, I do not know. But moraly, **** the state. If they didnt want ANY off roster handguns inside Ca, they shouldnt have made the loophole for leo.

Hoppy, how can it be considered a straw purchase, if the leo buys is, keeps it for awhile, sells it to op, through a ffl but as ppt? Or are you just one of those that is morally superior to the rest of us?
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2011, 6:55 AM
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To the OP: perhaps I'm reading into your meaning here but it seems to me that by placing quotation marks around "sell" (in the title and in your post) it appears that you and this "LEO friend" have conspired together so that he'll buy the gun with the understanding that he's going to quickly transfer it to you.

If so, as others have said, that's a straw man purchase, a violation and both of you, if caught, will be in deep doo doo.

While the roster is a stupid infringement it's still on the books and getting caught won't be fun for either of you. I suggest not doing this.
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Old 04-02-2011, 7:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubet View Post
Legality of it, I do not know. But moraly, **** the state. If they didnt want ANY off roster handguns inside Ca, they shouldnt have made the loophole for leo.

Hoppy, how can it be considered a straw purchase, if the leo buys is, keeps it for awhile, sells it to op, through a ffl but as ppt? Or are you just one of those that is morally superior to the rest of us?
IF that is what takes place, then I see nothing wrong. The OP post looks like him and his buddy are getting together to avoid the roster.

If a LEO buys a gun deemed "not unsafe" by the state, shoots it and decides he dosent want it, selling it to a friend would be fine. I dont think we need to go any further than that. The private understandings between two people are just that, private (unless they violate the law ha ha.) If the LEO in question has bought the gun to immediatly turn over to a "civilian" then thats a no no. Not morally IMO, but legally.
It seems to hinge on intent before the fact. Which can be hard to prove. If I was a cop, I would not risk it. But if I had bought a gun for myelf, that I knew a friend would want and I decided I didnt want it anymore, I would have no problem selling it to him.

I agree with the poster I quoted, these exemptions for our "hero class" are disgusting evidences of the quid pro qou between our masters and their enforcers. It is a shame that honest Peace Officers get lumped into a scenario that creates "us vs them" at the most basic level. I would no more ask a cop for help in LA than I would ask my gangbanging neighboors. Thats a shame, for both of us. Of course, I would by an off roster pistol from one...
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2011, 7:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubet View Post
Legality of it, I do not know. But moraly, **** the state. If they didnt want ANY off roster handguns inside Ca, they shouldnt have made the loophole for leo.

Hoppy, how can it be considered a straw purchase, if the leo buys is, keeps it for awhile, sells it to op, through a ffl but as ppt? Or are you just one of those that is morally superior to the rest of us?
Morally superior? Are you serious?

You're missing my point.

A straw purchase is about "intent".

I'd love to have a couple of off roster guns.

My point, is that is pisses me off, when a cop comes in here and says

Rosters are for Roosters, when he can buy any gun he wants

Fine. Don't rub my face in it.

If it's not about honor and integrity, and there is no way of getting caught.

Perfect

PM me, and buy be a F'n gun.

I'm not the one who is sworn.

And I would not ask, because I have honor and integrity.

But if you're offering

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  #19  
Old 04-02-2011, 7:19 AM
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I think that the OPs intention would be to have a LEO friend buy the gun, then turn around and FFL it in a PP transfer to him.

it's probably legal, but as the others said above, it's not a good idea.

I believe the roster will go away soon via Peña (below in my sig line), but Nordyke has to be ruled on first.

ETA:

From the Calguns Wiki:
Quote:
What is a STRAW PURCHASE?

A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s).

Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law.

It is legal for one person to purchase a firearm as a gift for another person.

It is legal for a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) to purchase an off-Roster handgun and later sell it to another California resident – that would not necessarily be a ‘straw purchase’.
Erik.

Last edited by Window_Seat; 04-02-2011 at 7:27 AM..
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Old 04-02-2011, 8:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user01394 View Post
If I have a LEO friend, is it OK for me to have him buy say a Glock gen 4 then "sell" it to me PPT for the same price?
Why not get your Glock from one of the shops that do the single shot mod and keep your LEO friend out from under the DOJ microscope?
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  #21  
Old 04-02-2011, 8:28 AM
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The key phrase here is "not necessarily illegal"

And that is because it's very difficult to prove intent.

So, if something is legal, why is it not a good idea in this case?

Because of intent, honor and integrity?

Guilty conscience? What?

Still waiting for someone to step forward and get me my gun.

What have you got to lose? I'll even make it worth your while.

I rest my case.
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Old 04-02-2011, 9:45 AM
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Thank you for the information, I don't want to do anything illegal or immoral on either of our parts. I don't like or agree with the roster but it is what it is. Maybe in 2 weeks the roster won't exist.
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Old 04-02-2011, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
...

LEOs run risky ground with this one and it can sometimes be a violation of their dept policy too.
This.

Yes, technically is is legal by definition. However if this happens enough the LEO in question could be investigated/disciplined.

I do know several LEOs that are buying as much as they can afford (mags + pistols) before they retire. I believe they are all personal acquisitions though.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubermcoupe View Post
This.

Yes, technically is is legal by definition. However if this happens enough the LEO in question could be investigated/disciplined.

I do know several LEOs that are buying as much as they can afford (mags + pistols) before they retire. I believe they are all personal acquisitions though.
Who told you that it is "technically" legal?
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Old 04-02-2011, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user01394 View Post
If I have a LEO friend, is it OK for me to have him buy say a Glock gen 4 then "sell" it to me PPT for the same price?
Some LEO's supplement there income doing just that!
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Old 04-02-2011, 1:24 PM
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Best bet is to talk your LEO friend into buying it for himself. Then, every time you two go shooting and you shoot the pistol, start talking about all the bad things with it, even make some up. Keep at it until a month down the road he finally starts believing and decides he wants to get rid of it. then offer to buy it!
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Old 04-02-2011, 2:33 PM
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YES! it is ok.
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Old 04-02-2011, 2:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user01394 View Post
If I have a LEO friend, is it OK for me to have him buy say a Glock gen 4 then "sell" it to me PPT for the same price?
Are you looking for an internet permission slip or are you looking to get your LEO friend and yourself busted for conspiring to engage in illegal activity? This isn't the type of question you want to publically ask.

The roster is total bull****, but we're stuck with it until it goes away
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Old 04-02-2011, 4:00 PM
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I really don't see any issue with getting an off-roster gun this way versus a ppt, the single shot exemption, or having an out of state father/mother/son/daughter transfer. The only issue I do see is the relationship between the LEO and the person he's getting the gun for. If the LEO buys the gun and then just flips it to somebody random, rinse, repeat, then I could see an issue but if it is an actual friend then I don't really see the moral hazard outside of what their departmental regulations are. Kinda like using the employee discount at the store/company you work at to help out your friends and family.

Full disclosure on the topic... my bil is a NY State Trooper and I was going to try and enlist his help on getting a gen4 G19. Ended up not bothering and have a p228r on its way to me after learning how f'd up NY's purchase laws are and the simple complications involved in de-registering a non-duty weapon purchased under his shield - in NY the commoners have to acquire a Permit to Purchase and every county is different and when you sell it you have to remove the gun from your permit. No idea how CA LEOs effect a purchase.
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Old 04-02-2011, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
He/she can not specifically buy the gun for you and PPT it. It is against the law to purchase a firearm with the intent to bypass the roster.
Citation please. I'm not aware of anything in the penal code that says this.
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Old 04-02-2011, 6:49 PM
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Ron−Solo wrote,
Quote:
He/she can not specifically buy the gun for you and PPT it. It is against the law to purchase a firearm with the intent to bypass the roster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Citation please. I'm not aware of anything in the penal code that says this.
At issue here is the intent. If the LEO is making the purchase with the intent to sell it to his friend, it's a straw man purchase and therefore illegal.

From the Calguns Wiki

Quote:
What is a STRAW PURCHASE?
A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s).

Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law.

It is legal for one person to purchase a firearm as a gift for another person.

It is legal for a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) to purchase an off-Roster handgun and later sell it to another California resident – that would not necessarily be a ‘straw purchase’. [italics Original]
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Old 04-02-2011, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snobord99 View Post
Who told you that it is "technically" legal?
"Technical" adj. - as in derived from ___
(in this case, not specifically forbidden per CA Penal Code.)
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:22 PM
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All of this is a moot point since you can now buy many off roster pistols under single shot exemption from several FFL's.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
I guess it would depend on the honor and integrity of the LEO.
Are you saying that it is dishonorable and a blow to ones integrity if he/she refuses to follow an unconstitutional law? If so, I've got some bad news about those guys that founded our country...

The law does not morality make.
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Old 04-03-2011, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubermcoupe View Post
"Technical" adj. - as in derived from ___
(in this case, not specifically forbidden per CA Penal Code.)
Yes, thank you for defining "technical" because I didn't know what it meant. [/sarcasm]

You know that straw purchasing is a violation of FEDERAL law (specifically, 18 USC 922(a)(6) and another section that I can't recall right now) and that the CA Penal Code is only for California STATE crimes right?
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Old 04-03-2011, 12:36 AM
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1) Do federal "straw purchase" laws include an LE purchasing an "off roster" handgun for a CA resident who is not exempt?

2) Does CA law specifically prohibit an exempt person from purchasing an "off roster" handgun for a non-exempt individual?

If the answer is "no" and "no" it would seem to me there is no violation based on straw purchase, although the LE may be "engaging in the business".
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Old 04-03-2011, 6:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turo View Post
Are you saying that it is dishonorable and a blow to ones integrity if he/she refuses to follow an unconstitutional law? If so, I've got some bad news about those guys that founded our country...

The law does not morality make.
Look, I'm talking about LEOs that have sworn to uphold and enforce the law.

They don't make the laws, and determine which one's are unconstitutional or not, and neither do you.

Courts do that, and that's in the Constitution.

I'm saying that if you give your word, and swear to do something

And then don't do it

Yeah, that's dishonorable.

Now I haven't sworn to anything, and I think the roster is stupid and idiotic

So if somebody wants to step forward and offer to get me an off roster gun

I'm all for it.

But I wouldn't ask them, because I think it's inappropriate
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  #38  
Old 04-03-2011, 7:18 AM
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jnojr jnojr is offline
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Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
I guess it would depend on the honor and integrity of the LEO.
Where, precisely, is the question of "honor" in legally circumventing a law that shouldn't exist in the first place?
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Old 04-03-2011, 9:11 AM
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1) Do federal "straw purchase" laws include an LE purchasing an "off roster" handgun for a CA resident who is not exempt?

2) Does CA law specifically prohibit an exempt person from purchasing an "off roster" handgun for a non-exempt individual?

If the answer is "no" and "no" it would seem to me there is no violation based on straw purchase, although the LE may be "engaging in the business".
The answers are:
1) Yes.
2) (As far as I know) no.

So yes, it would be illegal as it is a violation of federal law (I'm assuming that LEO has to fill out the same forms we do when they purchase a firearm...I really don't know about this aspect).
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:07 AM
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Where, precisely, is the question of "honor" in legally circumventing a law that shouldn't exist in the first place?
I must be from a different generation than you guys.

The "honor" is in giving your word, and swearing an oath to uphold the laws.

Obviously, most of these LEOS must agree with me, since no one is offering to buy me my gun.

Look, test this out yourself.

Go ask a cop to get you an off roster gun.

According to you it's not illegal, it's an unconstitutional law, and it's not a dishonorable thing to do.

Offer to pay him for his time.

See what he says.

There's your answer.

Now, there may be a few, very few, that would agree to do this.

These guys have no honor and integrity.
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