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  #1  
Old 03-19-2011, 2:59 PM
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Default Maximum length on AR pistol upper?

Is there a max length on a pistol upper? It seems like I could put a 20" barrel on an AR "pistol" as long it's registered as such and was assembled according to the law...
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  #2  
Old 03-19-2011, 3:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldrifle View Post
Is there a max length on a pistol upper? It seems like I could put a 20" barrel on an AR "pistol" as long it's registered as such and was assembled according to the law...
yup... 24" if you really feeling froggy
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  #3  
Old 03-19-2011, 3:17 PM
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None actually.
It has to be under 16" to qualify as a weapon capable of being concealed for 12001, but your pistol does NOT have to qualify for the section to be legal.

Put a 40" barrel on it if you want, just don't think you'll be putting it on your CCW anytime soon haha.
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Old 03-19-2011, 3:17 PM
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OK, I did some Google searching and found the info I need. A mod can delete this useless thread if they want.

Thanks for the info guys.
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Old 03-19-2011, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
None actually.
It has to be under 16" to qualify as a weapon capable of being concealed for 12001, but your pistol does NOT have to qualify for the section to be legal.

Put a 40" barrel on it if you want, just don't think you'll be putting it on your CCW anytime soon haha.
wait... are any laws bound by "capable of being concealed" without first stating "pistol"?
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Old 03-19-2011, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by oldrifle View Post
OK, I did some Google searching and found the info I need. A mod can delete this useless thread if they want.

Thanks for the info guys.
Better to leave it up for the knowledge of others.

You should post your link too in case someone searching for the same thing in a year finds this thread
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Old 03-19-2011, 3:50 PM
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This is the other thread I found: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=300955

Since I don't care about making an AR with a barrel length of equal to or greater than 16", I consider my questioned answered by that thread even though there is conflicting information. Still kind of curious about what the law actually is though.
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2011, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldrifle View Post
This is the other thread I found: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=300955

Since I don't care about making an AR with a barrel length of equal to or greater than 16", I consider my questioned answered by that thread even though there is conflicting information. Still kind of curious about what the law actually is though.
None. It can be any length.

12001 relates to firearms "capable of being concealed on the person".
That is the purpose of the section.

Basically, they are saying "anything with a barrel less than 16" is a firearm capable of being concealed and has to follow handgun rules".
They aren't saying you can't have a handgun with a 50" barrel.

Quote:
12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms “pistol,” “revolver,” and “firearm capable of being concealed upon the person” shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

(2) As used in this title, the term “handgun” means any “pistol,” “revolver,” or “firearm capable of being concealed upon the person”.

(b) As used in this title, “firearm” means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term “firearm” includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.

(d) For the purposes of Sections 12025 and 12031, the term “firearm” also shall include any rocket, rocket propelled projectile launcher, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material whether or not the device is designed for emergency or distress signaling purposes.

(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term “firearm” does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an “antique firearm” in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a “handgun,” “pistol,” “revolver,” or “firearm capable of being concealed upon the person” from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
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  #9  
Old 03-19-2011, 5:15 PM
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I'll need to search for it, but I brought this up a while back, and I coulda sworn CA ( not FED) does have a law stating a pistol has to have a barrel less than 16in.

Nobody quote me on this yet
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  #10  
Old 03-19-2011, 5:21 PM
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Okay, I won't quote your post, but I will respond and say I would like to see that if it exists (in a totally non-argumentative way, just curious).
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Old 03-19-2011, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldrifle View Post
Is there a max length on a pistol upper? It seems like I could put a 20" barrel on an AR "pistol" as long it's registered as such and was assembled according to the law...
Please don't.

Please keep any uppers mounted to a pistol lower at under 16" barrel length. I've looked at this before and forgotten the details but again there's risk of 'contamination'.

Don't risk turning your pistol into 'not a pistol' and then reverting back to something that's become an SBR. Some of these waters are a bit muddy and lowers are cheap.
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  #12  
Old 03-19-2011, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Please don't.

Please keep any uppers mounted to a pistol lower at under 16" barrel length.

Don't risk turning your pistol into 'not a pistol' and then reverting back to something that's become SBR. Some of these waters are a bit muddy and lowers are cheap.
Pistol lowers aren't cheap in CA though.
It can't be an SBR without something that is considered a stock.

But I agree with not wanting to be the test case.
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  #13  
Old 03-19-2011, 6:36 PM
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BATFE...
With a greater than 16" barrel and/or an OAL greater than 26", your pistol will become a "other" firearm.
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Last edited by Quiet; 03-19-2011 at 11:54 PM.. Reason: correction
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  #14  
Old 03-19-2011, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Federal laws...
With a greater than 16" barrel and/or an OAL greater than 26", your pistol will become a "long gun" that is not a rifle.
Really? Can you cite the relevant sections of USC on that? (Not saying I don't believe you, just want to read it).
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2011, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
Really? Can you cite the relevant sections of USC on that? (Not saying I don't believe you, just want to read it).
I may be mistaken. It might be a BATFE ruling, not a USC or CFR.

It's the way a firearm is identified to be marked down as a "handgun", "long gun" or "other" on the ATF 4473 form.

Since, factory pistol grip only "shotguns" with a 18" or greater barrel and an OAL of 26" or greater does not meet the definition of a shotgun, it is transfered as an "other".
Same way as a semi-auto 1919A4 with a 16" or greater barrel and OAL of 26" or greater does not meet the definition of a rifle, it is transfered as an "other".

I guess it comes down if the firearm with a short stock and a greater than 16" barrel still meets the definition of a handgun, pistol or revolver or something else.


27 CFR 478.11
Handgun.
(a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having
(a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and
(b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Revolver.
A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.
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Last edited by Quiet; 03-20-2011 at 12:07 AM..
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  #16  
Old 03-20-2011, 1:10 AM
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Those are kind of misleading (even if it is law). Who designs handguns to be fired from one hand? I mean you can use them that way, but clearly manufactures are considering two handed use (by the way they place things, you can tell).

But even if an AK pistol with a 30" barrel (for example) isn't a pistol. There is nothing illegal about "others".
If there was, no one would have receivers.
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  #17  
Old 03-20-2011, 6:19 AM
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.50 BMG pistol please.

Last edited by frigginchi; 03-20-2011 at 6:21 AM..
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Old 03-20-2011, 8:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
Pistol lowers aren't cheap in CA though.
Where are you shopping? I got a Tactical Machine pistol lower for $135 + DROS. $170 out the door
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Old 03-20-2011, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
I may be mistaken. It might be a BATFE ruling, not a USC or CFR.

It's the way a firearm is identified to be marked down as a "handgun", "long gun" or "other" on the ATF 4473 form.

Since, factory pistol grip only "shotguns" with a 18" or greater barrel and an OAL of 26" or greater does not meet the definition of a shotgun, it is transfered as an "other".
Same way as a semi-auto 1919A4 with a 16" or greater barrel and OAL of 26" or greater does not meet the definition of a rifle, it is transfered as an "other".

I guess it comes down if the firearm with a short stock and a greater than 16" barrel still meets the definition of a handgun, pistol or revolver or something else.


27 CFR 478.11
Handgun.
(a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having
(a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and
(b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Revolver.
A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rareair View Post
Where are you shopping? I got a Tactical Machine pistol lower for $135 + DROS. $170 out the door

Ok so then riddle me this.... If a person complies with ATF Form 4473, Block 18 and uses "other". He can then build a "other" single shot with a 26.25" barrel which is NOT a pistol and is NOT a concealable weapon. He can then carry that firearm as if it was a rifle and NOT have to comply with laws written for pistols. Concealed under a jacket unloaded. An AR15 9mm, with 26" barrel can easily fit under my arm hanging down. If I then wear a long coat the whole firearm is concealed from view. Remember..its not a pistol by definition, or as per ATF and is not a concealable firearm as per the definition even if concealed. After first built I can then change it to semi-automatic if I want...no law against that. Yes DROS would be pistol since its NOT a longarm...or would it?

Last edited by dieselpower; 03-20-2011 at 9:57 AM..
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  #20  
Old 03-20-2011, 11:14 AM
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Did you mean an OAL of 26.5?
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Old 03-20-2011, 4:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rareair View Post
Where are you shopping? I got a Tactical Machine pistol lower for $135 + DROS. $170 out the door
Unless that is an 80%, you got it single-shot exemption, it was a PPT, or you are an exempt person then you CAN'T use that to build a pistol in CA because it was DROS'd as a long gun. (Can't DROS as handgun without exemption because it isn't on the safe roster).

Therefore, PPT pistol lowers have sold for about $400 around here.

Note: Whether it says "pistol" or not on the side of the lower is irrelevant one way or the other.
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Old 03-21-2011, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
Ok so then riddle me this.... If a person complies with ATF Form 4473, Block 18 and uses "other". He can then build a "other" single shot with a 26.25" barrel which is NOT a pistol and is NOT a concealable weapon. He can then carry that firearm as if it was a rifle and NOT have to comply with laws written for pistols. Concealed under a jacket unloaded. An AR15 9mm, with 26" barrel can easily fit under my arm hanging down. If I then wear a long coat the whole firearm is concealed from view. Remember..its not a pistol by definition, or as per ATF and is not a concealable firearm as per the definition even if concealed. After first built I can then change it to semi-automatic if I want...no law against that. Yes DROS would be pistol since its NOT a longarm...or would it?
Many moons ago...
There was a thread similar to what you are getting at.
It would be a generic long gun and since it does not fit the definition of either a handgun or rifle.
Not only does the conceal carry laws not affect it, but the assault weapons laws would also not apply to it.
The firearm that was being used as an example was an AR receiver with a pistol buffer tube + greater than 26" barrel + forward vertical grip + detachable magazines.
Can't find the thread, but I believe bdsmchs started it and I believe the braintrust said don't do it, unless you got tons of $$$$$$ to fight it in court.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frigginchi View Post
.50 BMG pistol please.
BATFE...
.50BMG "handgun" = Destructive Device and subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934.
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Last edited by Quiet; 03-21-2011 at 6:00 AM..
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Old 03-21-2011, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
BATFE...
.50BMG "handgun" = Destructive Device and subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934.
still debatable. I'm pretty sure this is FUD. I've never seen anything from ATF that confirms that they measure pistols differently than rifles.

I know an 07FFL/02SOT recently called ATF and they said that they measure them the same.

Now, we don't want to see a production .50BMG pistol, becuase that would give ATF an excuse to ban most .50BMG ammo as being "armor piercing" pistol ammo.
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Old 03-21-2011, 7:09 AM
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I remember reading a thread about one of our members down in Southern LA/Orange County who built an other AR, pistol buffer tube, 20" barrel (I think) I think because of that he was able to use 30 rounders without issue. I think it was Harmonious, but not 100%, it was about a year ago.

What I do remember is he talked with the legal eagles with CGF and they basically said he was on his own in regards to that particular build. There were pictures too.
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Old 03-21-2011, 9:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
BATFE...
With a greater than 16" barrel and/or an OAL greater than 26", your pistol will become a "other" firearm.
Well, if it becomes an "other" how does one run afoul of the AW laws regarding long guns (it isn't that) and handguns (nor that) and shotguns (definitley not that) in CA? A "never been a long gun" AR receiver attached to an 18" barreled upper that make 26.1" OAL would seem to be outside the scope of the CA AW laws and one could have a PG & detach magazines, it would seem to me.

I must be missing something, there must be a catch .....
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rareair View Post
Where are you shopping? I got a Tactical Machine pistol lower for $135 + DROS. $170 out the door
it sure is nice being able to buy off-roster weapons, huh? Most pistol lowers need to be either PPT, single shot or person exempt. The first two are pretty expensive to do here in CA.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Well, if it becomes an "other" how does one run afoul of the AW laws regarding long guns (it isn't that) and handguns (nor that) and shotguns (definitley not that) in CA? A "never been a long gun" AR receiver attached to an 18" barreled upper that make 26.1" OAL would seem to be outside the scope of the CA AW laws and one could have a PG & detach magazines, it would seem to me.

I must be missing something, there must be a catch .....
Again, it's been tried, and CGF said that you're on your own for it, they're not going to back it up at this time.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:23 PM
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On a related note, if you get your tax stamp for an ar pistol and make it an AOW, do the Ca AW laws still apply? (Ie mag lock and 10rd limit)
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Old 03-21-2011, 6:00 PM
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On a related note, if you get your tax stamp for an ar pistol and make it an AOW, do the Ca AW laws still apply? (Ie mag lock and 10rd limit)
yes.
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