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  #1  
Old 03-18-2011, 9:46 PM
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Default Statistics say you are more likely to be killed by own gun?

I got in a huge argument with a family member today. He supports the 2nd amendment for "keeping the government in check" but does not own a gun. He is NOT a liberal/dem, claims to be liberatarian.

His words that really angered me were...
"in a home invasion, you are more likely to be killed by your own gun"

i called BS on that....he claims he saw the stats in the FBIs crime statistics or something along those lines.

He also claims that the "statistics show you are extremely unlikely to experiance a home invasion, better chance of being killed in car accident or getting struck by lightning:"

i explained that even if the percentage was 99% to 1%, its still not worth gambling on that 1%. he feels this way because he lives in a rich safe neighborhood, whereas i live in a bad neighborhood. i questioned why he would not take the simple precaution to learn how to use a gun to properly defend his house/family.....but he says that "in a home invasion its better to just let the robbers have what they want"....i was absolutely infuriated with his smug arrogant know it all attitude regarding home invasions, and invited him to talk to actual people who experienced home invasions. he said "home invasions rarely happen and its not worth being paranoid over"....absolutely ludicrous how one is so lax about his safety and especially his family's safety....just because he lives in a safe enclave.


What i would really like is MORE STATISTICS RELATED TO HOME INVASIONS. how many people killed the intruder or were killed by their own gun? it doesnt seem to have any merit....i want a link to a news story or something non-biased to shut him up for good....

when i made the comment about going to the internet to find evidence he made the snide remark..."and dont ask your paranoid gun buddies".........

Last edited by Mendo223; 03-18-2011 at 9:52 PM..
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  #2  
Old 03-18-2011, 9:50 PM
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There's a thread about this in 2A forum right now. I'm on my phone so it's tough for me to link it but it should be on the first page.

The statistic is wrong, btw.
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Old 03-18-2011, 9:53 PM
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He's a coward if he has a family and thinks it's better to give the perp 'what he wants.' wonder how his wife and children would feel knowing the man they trust to protect them would rather watch his family be raped and murdered in front of his eyes rather than protect them. Cowardly and selfish.
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Old 03-18-2011, 9:54 PM
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next time he says it is better to let the robbers take what they want. ask him what if they want to rape his wife and cut the throats of his children while they tie him up and force him to watch?
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  #5  
Old 03-18-2011, 9:55 PM
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^ exactly what i said....i brought up the case of a couple in shasta county who experiance home invasion and the husband saw the wife get killed.

he made the smug remark..."and thats the ONLY example you can think off...it rarely happens you could live 10 lifetimes and never experiance home invasion or extreme crime. nobodys getting their throat slit or raped every night in home invasions..."

such an idiotic mindset.

he knows karate and martial arts and claims he could overpower 3 armed intruders...i called BS on that as well....saying.."the statistics show that using karate versus handgun for self defense is totally different...you are risking your familys lifes because you think you can overpower with karate, instead of simple owning a gun and issuing a warning to intruders before firing..."
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Old 03-18-2011, 9:58 PM
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really dissapointing because im in business with him and his mindset really made me loose some respect.

but he keeps saying that im being a paranoid gun nut, etc, something along those lines. and that hes actually worried about my gun ownership because i am "delusionally paranoid"

i was so angry i had trouble speaking, and we were literally shouting at eachother top of our voices in the car during this debate.....my blood pressure was through the roof its been a long long time since an argument with him..
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Old 03-18-2011, 9:59 PM
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but yeah guys...i NEED FACTS. hes a statistics cruncher and will only be swayed by factual evidence.

i need info on if people are really more likely to shoot themselves before using it to protect somebody. i looked online and cant find anything...only statistics like "every 14 seconds a burglary occurs"...etc...
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Old 03-18-2011, 9:59 PM
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That "statistics" is based on the the deeply flawed, many times debunked, and very... selective in its test group Kellerman study. In other words, it's BS. Look up the study and chances are that you'll find more places debunking it than the ones that actually have it. Do find the study itself though, and see for yourself.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:00 PM
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he said he got the statistics from the FBI or some other police agency...which apparently is REAL credible in his eyes. i told him most of those studies were cooked in favor of the brady campaign and that they ddint factor in gun deaths by illegal owned guns, suicides, etc....
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:05 PM
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In a way I hope he is right,(just this part) I dont wish to be involved in a home invasion. Like you, I dont want to be the 1% (or whatever percent it is) I am no chuck norris, karate is out of the question. If he could disarm 3 invaders with karate his words could probably kill you as well, be careful.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mendo223 View Post
but yeah guys...i NEED FACTS. hes a statistics cruncher and will only be swayed by factual evidence.
DUDE....seriously. You give him too much credit. HE WILL NOT BE SWAYED BY FACTS NOR STATS.

People disagree mostly because 1) they accept different premises and 2) different life experiences.

You are fooling yourself if you think you canchange his mind on facts and stats alone. I assume this based on the way you discrible his agruments and reactions.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:14 PM
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no i will not give up in converting his mindset. he is already in favor of the 2nd amendment as a tool to make sure the government doesnt try to strongarm its citizens. he has fired guns before but claims the noise hurts his ears....he is not totally lost. he already said things like "i do not advocate for banning guns"......"an armed populace keeps the government thinking twice...".....

i just gotta sway him on the home defense issue. he freakin leaves his DOORS UNLOCKED...in san francisco. he lives in a very safe part of SF and rarely ventures into the dangerous parts. just today the back door of his house was unlocked and we found it open, he claimed it was the windstorm that moved the door..... i did a security check of the house...he claims im paranoid, blah blah, thats how the argument started btw.

if i could find some solid facts that show the facts he swears by are false, i can change him. i highly doubt i will go shooting with him ever, but if he can at least understand that im not some paranoid guy sitting here in the corner stroking my glock 40, just a normal guy who bought a gun "just in case"....i would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it"

Last edited by Mendo223; 03-18-2011 at 10:17 PM..
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:16 PM
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63% of all statistics used in an argument are made up on the spot
42% of all people know that
95% of people believe fake statistics when they are backed by "I saw it on the Discovery Channel"





(I saw this on the Discovery Channel....)
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  #14  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:17 PM
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He is correct in that you are more likely to be killed in a car accident than a home invasion, however not correct on being struck by lightning.

Basicly, your not going to convince him, people who are actual number crunchers would have analyzed the statistics they were given in the first place and decided if they were BS or not. The fact that he took it at face value pretty much rules out being able to convince him otherwise with facts(and the struck by lightning part really shows he is not into actual statistics).
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  #15  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:18 PM
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He is under the assumption that home invaders are only after his material wealth, sounds like that is all he cares about, i guess home invaders draw the line at rape and mudering there victims, why even be friends with such an annoying person.
Safe neighborhood - No such thing, infact he probably lives were home invasions are most likely to occur were the wealth is.

Last edited by battleship; 03-18-2011 at 10:22 PM..
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo223 View Post
I got in a huge argument with a family member today. He supports the 2nd amendment for "keeping the government in check" but does not own a gun. He is NOT a liberal/dem, claims to be liberatarian.

His words that really angered me were...
"in a home invasion, you are more likely to be killed by your own gun"

i called BS on that....he claims he saw the stats in the FBIs crime statistics or something along those lines.

He also claims that the "statistics show you are extremely unlikely to experiance a home invasion, better chance of being killed in car accident or getting struck by lightning:"

i explained that even if the percentage was 99% to 1%, its still not worth gambling on that 1%. he feels this way because he lives in a rich safe neighborhood, whereas i live in a bad neighborhood. i questioned why he would not take the simple precaution to learn how to use a gun to properly defend his house/family.....but he says that "in a home invasion its better to just let the robbers have what they want"....i was absolutely infuriated with his smug arrogant know it all attitude regarding home invasions, and invited him to talk to actual people who experienced home invasions. he said "home invasions rarely happen and its not worth being paranoid over"....absolutely ludicrous how one is so lax about his safety and especially his family's safety....just because he lives in a safe enclave.


What i would really like is MORE STATISTICS RELATED TO HOME INVASIONS. how many people killed the intruder or were killed by their own gun? it doesnt seem to have any merit....i want a link to a news story or something non-biased to shut him up for good....

when i made the comment about going to the internet to find evidence he made the snide remark..."and dont ask your paranoid gun buddies".........
Sometimes, it is not worth it trying to convinence everybody to think like you do. In those situations, I've found it best to move the conversation on to some other topic where you have more common ground.. .
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:22 PM
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the way they got that figure is funny...its like a shell game of numbers...

heres another good statistic along the same lines of math...rape victims who don't fight back like it.

If you don't walk around your house with a gun, when some criminal breaks in, he's got a better chance to win doesn't he? Do unarmed criminals break into homes occupied by people...No, they will be armed. After they get inside there is a good chance you will be no where near your firearm..or not fast enough to get to it...so then when they start raping your wife unless you give them the combo to the safe and then they get your gun...yeah guess who's gun they are going to use to kill you...

its a stupid statistic because its a no thinker...without looking at the facts of the crime it leads you away from the truth while also limiting the number of people in that situation to an obscure few.

most children who drown, do so in their own pool...no 1 talks about not having a pool, banning pools or the fact this is a stupid statistic. Its a risk and well worth it since few children do drown...(more then those accidentally shot I may add)
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:23 PM
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Ask him if it's better to live on his knees, or die on his feet.

it's a philosophical decision as much as one of probabilities and eventualities.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo223 View Post
he said he got the statistics from the FBI or some other police agency...which apparently is REAL credible in his eyes. i told him most of those studies were cooked in favor of the brady campaign and that they ddint factor in gun deaths by illegal owned guns, suicides, etc....
Ask him to show it. To the best of my knowledge, the FBI released no such study.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:42 PM
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You can throw all the stats and numbers at me on why I SHOULDN'T be armed, but I am always left ..."it's better to have a gun and never need it, then not have it when I do need it."

Numbers can go only so far.

My parents home was home invade in a very good neighborhood of Huntington Beach.

Shiet happens that why we have insurance, LEOs armed, kids are vaccinated, etc

just have to weigh risks and benefits.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:47 PM
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well i spent the last 20 min doing some quick fact finding. trying to use non biased studies over a variety of years...

i compilied this email and just sent it to my family member....his statistics were totally off. im sure he will come to his senses because he is a very statistics oriented man. i am certain he simply read a very anti-gun article and didnt realize it was a biased survey..

""""most of the surveys you cited are outdated and there are many different surveys with different numbers...but in general, it says that guns were used for self defense between 400k-2 million times per year which is much much higher than the rates of those killed by their own guns. also, your statistics about being the victim of a crime including home invasion and homicide are wrong...


http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
* Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.[11]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]


A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.
At the current homicide rate, roughly one in every 240 Americans will be murdered.[23]

* A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:


• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives



• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime



• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]


Guns used in self defense? apparently not news.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-gra...ently-not-news


http://crimeinamerica.net/2010/12/13...violent-crime/
Sex: Males are victimized more than females, but not by much (18.4 vs. 15.8) per thousand. There are big differences per crime category; more men are victims of robbery and serious assault, the rates for simple assault are virtually identical, more women are raped.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/06/us...tudy-says.html
^DEMOCRATIC NEWSPAPER.....says 1 in 133 odds of being murdered in USA
WASHINGTON, May 5— Americans generally have one chance in 133 of being murdered over their lifetimes, according to the Government's first study of the risk of violent crime.
The study by the Bureau of Justice Statistics also concluded that about six million Americans, roughly 3 percent of those over 12, would become a victim of robbery, rape or other assault in a given year.
The report said that over their lifetimes, black men have a 1-in-21 chance of being murdered; white men have a 1-in-131 chance; white women a 1-in-369 chance and black women a 1-in-104 chance.



http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
in 2009 out of a population of 301 million

Year Population Total Violent Property Murder Rape Robbery assault


2009 307,006,550 10,639,369 1,318,398 9,320,971 15,241 89,000 408,217 806,843


thats over 10.6 million people who were the victims of crimes that may have been prevented by exercising the 2nd amendment....much higher than your supposedly statistics


oh and these are some pics from the guys from my local gun forum, to give you a laugh....they actually held this rally recently so pretty funny/coincidental on timing...
SELF DEFENSE TRUTH RALLY MAY 16th
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=409470
really...download the picture. sure looks like alot of redneck rigth wing paranoid whackjobs to me.."""
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:11 PM
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It's unlikely he'll ever be in a serious car accident, but I bet he wears his seatbelt.
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Old 03-19-2011, 1:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo223 View Post
I got in a huge argument with a family member today. He supports the 2nd amendment for "keeping the government in check" but does not own a gun. He is NOT a liberal/dem, claims to be liberatarian.

His words that really angered me were...
"in a home invasion, you are more likely to be killed by your own gun"

i called BS on that....he claims he saw the stats in the FBIs crime statistics or something along those lines.

He also claims that the "statistics show you are extremely unlikely to experiance a home invasion, better chance of being killed in car accident or getting struck by lightning:"

i explained that even if the percentage was 99% to 1%, its still not worth gambling on that 1%. he feels this way because he lives in a rich safe neighborhood, whereas i live in a bad neighborhood. i questioned why he would not take the simple precaution to learn how to use a gun to properly defend his house/family.....but he says that "in a home invasion its better to just let the robbers have what they want"....i was absolutely infuriated with his smug arrogant know it all attitude regarding home invasions, and invited him to talk to actual people who experienced home invasions. he said "home invasions rarely happen and its not worth being paranoid over"....absolutely ludicrous how one is so lax about his safety and especially his family's safety....just because he lives in a safe enclave.


What i would really like is MORE STATISTICS RELATED TO HOME INVASIONS. how many people killed the intruder or were killed by their own gun? it doesnt seem to have any merit....i want a link to a news story or something non-biased to shut him up for good....

when i made the comment about going to the internet to find evidence he made the snide remark..."and dont ask your paranoid gun buddies".........
First of all, he sounds like no "Libertarian" or "2A" supporter I have ever known/heard of. He sounds like a flat out anti that doesn't want to come out of the proverbial "closet", because he fears the inevitable ridicule and disproving of his views. Secondly, look at the BATFE and their "99% of guns in Mexico come from the US" statistic, then the subsequent "Gunwalker" scandal, then tell me how reliable most Government statistics likely are. Lastly, read James Wesley, Rawles' "How to Survive the End of the World As We Know It" (a well respected family preperadness expert), or even just the introduction to it, he clearly predicts that one of the first areas/groups that are going to get the brunt of the resulting chaos if the SEHTF is those oh-so-cozy and "safe" wealthy neighborhoods, because of their apparent lack of defense and available wealth/resources. How do you like them statistics? In fact, he is not the only, nor the first, family preparedness/SHTF survival expert I have seen state something to that effect either. Don't just take our word for it though, look it up for yourself, all the information is just a "google" away.
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Old 03-19-2011, 2:11 AM
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Maybe, there is something in his past that prevents him from owning a gun. Maybe he is covering it up to hide that fact. Maybe, he is hoping that if someone breaks into his house with rape on their mind, he will be chosen and he doesn't want to mess it up with a gun.
You said you are in business with him, I hope it isn't a gun shop.
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Old 03-19-2011, 6:31 AM
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I for one cry BS on stats like that. Heck even if it were true I'd rather take my chances LOL. I'd rather be shot with my own piece than too not ever have the ability to even try and defend myself.
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Old 03-19-2011, 7:50 AM
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He's obviously an idiot who's totally convinced of his own self righteousness and you'll never convince him of anything. And he's playing you, probably laughing about how upset you're getting.

Why not tell him to prove his "statistics" or f**k the hell off?

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Old 03-19-2011, 7:56 AM
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There's a guy at work who's always citing statistics and documents and all this crap. It's not just about guns either, it's about all kinds of things. Anytime I tell him to show me his numbers he tells me he doesn't have to. This is coming from the same guy who has no idea what's in the constitution or the bill of rights.

Take what people say at face value and nothing more. Most people are uninformed followers who do as they're told by whomever they idolize. Just smile and nod.
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Old 03-19-2011, 8:20 AM
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When someone says a line like this I start with OK, "if you believe that then just don't own a gun and rely on 911 for your self preservation" (Good luck with that). See, we agree! Of course, I think that's totally bogus, "I own a gun, and I'm not giving it up".

If gun banners state a number like this it's always some little wedge they think they have an advantage in.

I wonder how these so called "numbers" would change if they didn't involve a death on either side, like armed people vs. underarmed victims where:

-the perp was held for custody and arrested

-the perp was wounded and arrested and no one else was hurt. This wouldn't show up in a "death" statistic.

-No shots had to be fired and the encounter ended with the perp running away.



If you only counting statistics where someone died, it would ignore the above situations. Also, was the gun owner's firearm was locked in a safe or had a trigger lock because of "gun safety laws" and this prevented them from defending themselves?


We agree on one thing, gun banners shouldn't be allowed to own guns.
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:38 PM
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he is a very statistics oriented person and believes what the studies say. here was his response...

""I found one statistic that said homeowners use a gun for home self defense every 14 seconds in this country and find that hard to believe - do you have the study results.

According to the Center for Disease Control found ownership of guns increases risk of injury or death although it does not mention home invasion robbery:
The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.""
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:46 PM
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Ask him when the last time you saw an armed citizen uprising against the government. He could live 100 lives and all the sheeple will just let it happen.

When he brings up history just say, THAT'S ALL YOU CAN THINK OF?

Forget facts, just be unarguable.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:03 AM
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I live in a NICE neighborhood in San Francisco. My neighbors include a former mayor and the fire chief. A number of years ago, the ex mayor was having a xmas party. A pair of armed thugs rang the doorbell and when the lady of the house answered the door, they came rolling on in. They made off with a sack full of wallets, watches and jewelry.

Sorry to say this, but your friend sounds like a typical sheep. What are you expecting? That you'll convert him?
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Old 03-20-2011, 2:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonelar View Post
What are you expecting? That you'll convert him?
+1000

Let him believe what he wants too, even if it means he thinks you are a paranoid gun nut. I tell people like him that it is a basic human right to defend yourself and your family and if he chooses karate then thats ok with me. I, however, will take my .45acp any day of the week.
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Old 03-20-2011, 5:04 AM
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For a lot of antis, their belief system is tantamount to a religion, based on faith, certitude in the righteousness of their beliefs, insulated by others they associate with who share the same belief system, and outraged by others who would assail their beliefs.

It holds true for gun owners as well, I might add....

So, when the argument comes up with someone particularly disagreeable, I just treat it the way I would with someone arguing with me about religion : just shrug and tell them "you live your life the way you want, and I'll live mine the way I want, and let neither of us impose our beliefs on one another." Ain't Amurrica great?

for me, gun ownership is a hobby that I enjoy, first and foremost. I have never taken a tactical class or received formal marksmanship training from any military or LE organization, and whatever plinking I do at the range would put my skill and preparedness well below the average US service personnel or cop, just as my half-hearted efforts in the gym would never seriously prepare me for playing a sport at a high level.

Nevertheless, I keep guns in my house in the same spirit of why I have auto, home, and life insurance, and have fire extinguishers and first aid kits in each of my cars and spread throughout my house. I hope I never need to use any of them, but I was a Cub Scout and remember the motto "Be Prepared."
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Old 03-20-2011, 6:57 AM
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Statistics are so easily skewed and often are in order to fit an agenda
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Old 03-20-2011, 7:09 AM
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Saddam Hussein won his last election with 100% of the vote.

ELL OH ELL :lol:

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
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Old 03-20-2011, 7:21 AM
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The only thing that would change his my is if he were to become a victim. Think Moby
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:27 AM
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Going to break this down so its easier to read and understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo223 View Post
he is a very statistics oriented person and believes what the studies say. here was his response...

""I found one statistic that said homeowners use a gun for home self defense every 14 seconds in this country and find that hard to believe - do you have the study results.

According to the Center for Disease Control found ownership of guns increases risk of injury or death although it does not mention home invasion robbery:

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented.

A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were;

1) four (4) unintentional shootings,
2) seven (7) criminal assaults or homicides, and
3) eleven (11) attempted or completed suicides

So this brings the total to 626+4+7+11= 648. So of the total 648 a mere 22 totaled were the gun COULD be considered used against the owner...so the real statistic is "There is a 29% a gun in the home will be used with tragic results, while there is a 71% chance it will save your life.
(Kellermann et al, 1998).

Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms
(Nelson et al, 1987).

In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home,

1) having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Its a stereotype and myth, which is what this study is saying....

2) Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Yes a criminal uses a weapon...really this is news to you? To then say simply owning a gun = turning a person into a criminal wife beater/ rapist is stupid.

3) Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). Live by the sword, die by he sword. once again...yes CRIMINALS use firearms too. That doesn't mean a gun owner is a criminal in the same way a male with a penis is NOT a rapist....think about it.

It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.""
and that last sentence means this person has no clue what he just read. You can copy and paste my reply to him. Not a single thing here supports his position. Its shows the exact opposite in fact.
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:59 AM
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I agree with scoot64,

It is very sad but for most anti gunners, they do not understand the point of a firearm until they become a victim or had a love one that was a victim of a violent act.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytony86 View Post
I agree with scoot64,

It is very sad but for most anti gunners, they do not understand the point of a firearm until they become a victim or had a love one that was a victim of a violent act.
Even then, that's only half the story. People are to be armed to resist tyranny from foreign or domestic governments. Being able to defend yourself also comes with the territory.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:10 AM
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It's his choice to not own a gun and take a chance he'll never need one.

Your choice is different.

Don't waste your time and energy trying to "convince" someone who is obviously firmly on the opposite side of the debate.

Middle of the road people with open minds might be swayed to give gun ownership a chance.

This jack wagon isn't worth the effort - So save your breath.

I had a similar experience - Got into a heated debate - And realized it was futile.

I told them (man/wife) "This conversation is over. You think its better to rely on the compassion of the intruder - I choose to protect my family. Good luck to you..."

About an hour later they walked back up and started asking questions about firearms from a very different point of view...
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