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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-13-2011, 11:23 PM
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Default Yet another magazine question...

Ok, I bought my son an OLL for his upcoming birthday. We will put a bullet button on it and he will use 10 round mags. While I was at Alquist Arms buying it, I decided to get my first OLL to go with my RAW Bushmaster and DPMS. I think I will put a dedicated .22 upper on this one so I believe I won't need a bullet button.

Now I have been thinking about buying some Pmag kits and retiring the crap load of aluminum 20 and 30 rounders I have. What if I rebuilt a few of those into hi cap .22 AR mags? It would still fit and function in the firearm that it was originally designed for, since the OLL is legally the firearm, only the caliber has changed. Is this legal?

If this has been answered somewhere, I apologize. I searched for it but didn't find an answer for this scenario. Also, I know Gene's actions may negate the need for this, but that could take
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Old 03-14-2011, 9:20 AM
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Deleted by author.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:58 AM
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That would be felony manufacturing of a large-capacity magazine.

They will FIT in the firearm for which they were originally designed, but they certainly wont' function. Why would you think a .22 magazine would function for 5.56?
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:21 AM
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The firearm I would be using them in would be a Spikes OLL that is marked "multi cal". Since federal and state law say the OLL is the firearm, not the upper, these hi-cap mags are designed to fit and function in my OLL, since I can insert the mag and release it with the mag release.

I am not saying that I am right, I am just explaining the thought process.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hdawg View Post
The firearm I would be using them in would be a Spikes OLL that is marked "multi cal". Since federal and state law say the OLL is the firearm, not the upper, these hi-cap mags are designed to fit and function in my OLL, since I can insert the mag and release it with the mag release.
The magazines must be able to feed and function the way they were designed.

They were designed to feed and function 5.56/.223. They cannot feed and function with .22lr. If you "rebuilt" them into .22lr magazines they will still not be able to feed and function with 5.56 or .223.

What you would be able to get away with would be .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf, since those will still be able to feed and function from standard 5.56/.223 magazines.

Rebuilding your 5.56 mags into .22lr mags would be felony manufacturing.
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Old 03-14-2011, 3:44 PM
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For an S&W M&P15 in 5.56, I'm curious about whether it's really possible to have/buy an external magazine release button in CA. I "saw" a 7.62 with an after market magnetic detachable "mag button", but the size/shape was different than a S&W 5.56. Assuming it's legal, I wouldn't mind having one. If they're okay, where does one buy it?
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Old 03-14-2011, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by API View Post
For an S&W M&P15 in 5.56, I'm curious about whether it's really possible to have/buy an external magazine release button in CA. I "saw" a 7.62 with an after market magnetic detachable "mag button", but the size/shape was different than a S&W 5.56. Assuming it's legal, I wouldn't mind having one. If they're okay, where does one buy it?
Any device that's attached to the firearm whether by tether or magnet that allows the removal of the mag counts as having a detachable mag.

The common device you're thinking of (i think) is the one that sits in the bulletbutton's hole and allows it to function very nearly like normal.

This is very much a no-go if you have evil features. If you make your rifle into a featureless, but don't want to change your bulletbutton out for a normal mag release, then you can use it.
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Old 03-14-2011, 8:36 PM
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The magazines must be able to feed and function the way they were designed.

They were designed to feed and function 5.56/.223. They cannot feed and function with .22lr. If you "rebuilt" them into .22lr magazines they will still not be able to feed and function with 5.56 or .223.

What you would be able to get away with would be .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf, since those will still be able to feed and function from standard 5.56/.223 magazines.

Rebuilding your 5.56 mags into .22lr mags would be felony manufacturing.
BULL

I can damn well LEGALLY modify my magazines to fit and function for WHATEVER CALIBER I choose!!!

That means 22LR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf, or any other caliber that will fit and function in the FIREARM they were originally designed and intended for (thats the LOWER by the way).
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Old 03-14-2011, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
BULL

I can damn well LEGALLY modify my magazines to fit and function for WHATEVER CALIBER I choose!!!

That means 22LR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf, or any other caliber that will fit and function in the FIREARM they were originally designed and intended for (thats the LOWER by the way).
You can legally modify your magazines but OP was asking if he can RE-BUILD his mags into a different caliber. That is a felony.
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Old 03-14-2011, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Hdawg View Post
Now I have been thinking about buying some Pmag kits and retiring the crap load of aluminum 20 and 30 rounders I have. What if I rebuilt a few of those into hi cap .22 AR mags? It would still fit and function in the firearm that it was originally designed for, since the OLL is legally the firearm, only the caliber has changed. Is this legal?
Rebuild... modify...

Does it matter as long as the OP is talking about altering his existing Large Capacity magazines?!?
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  #11  
Old 03-14-2011, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
Rebuild... modify...

Does it matter as long as the OP is talking about altering his existing Large Capacity magazines?!?
Technically he can rebuild them into whatever he wants them to be.. They just can't hold over 10 rounds of ammunition unless it is for whatever the magazine was designed for.
IE- You can use 6.8 ammo in a PRE ban AR mag but it cant hold over 10 rounds.
IE- He can rebuild the PRE ban AR mag to feed .22 ammo but it cant hold more than 10 rounds.
IE- He can rebuild the Pre ban AR mag to feed 40 rounds of .223/5.56.
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Old 03-14-2011, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper3142 View Post
BULL
Oh really? Before calling bull like that you'd better be prepared to back that up when we're talking about possible FELONY charges here.

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I can damn well LEGALLY modify my magazines to fit and function for WHATEVER CALIBER I choose!!!
Turning a USGI 30rd magazine into a 25rd Ciener magazine is creating an entirely new type of magazine. It doesn't matter that both of them work in an AR15. You've created a new magazine.

This is totally different from modifying a 5.56 magazine so that it can fire both 5.56 and something else like 6.8. It's still the same basic magazine design and can still feed the same original rounds that it was designed for.

Doing otherwise is called felony manufacturing of a large capacity magazine.

Quote:
That means 22LR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf, or any other caliber that will fit and function in the FIREARM they were originally designed and intended for (thats the LOWER by the way).
Yeah, I'm going with "you're still very wrong" on this one.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:32 AM
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Expanding the capacity of a magazine of a specific cartridge that started at 11+? Legal.

Changing the cartridge of an existing large capacity magazine may very well be "manufacture of a large capacity magazine."

Not advisable.

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  #14  
Old 03-15-2011, 1:00 AM
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Expanding the capacity of a magazine of a specific cartridge that started at 11+? Legal.
Yup - I'll rephrase that as, "there's no legal status change adding more capacity to an already high capacity magazine."

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang
Changing the cartridge of an existing large capacity magazine may very well be "manufacture of a large capacity magazine."
I'll further rephrase: "modifying a large capacity magazine to accept a new caliber/cartridge type, such that its original function in that original caliber/cartridge type is lost/impaired, may indeed be 'manufacture of a large capacity magazine'."

However, note there is NO prohibition on misapplication of an unchanged magazine (hicap or locap) such that it holds over 10rds of another caliber/cartridge type for which it wasn't designed.

Sniper3142 has a bit of thinking to do...
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Old 03-15-2011, 1:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Yup - I'll rephrase that as, "there's no legal status change adding more capacity to an already high capacity magazine."



I'll further rephrase: "modifying a large capacity magazine to accept a new caliber/cartridge type, such that its original function in that original caliber/cartridge type is lost/impaired, may indeed be 'manufacture of a large capacity magazine'."

However, note there is NO prohibition on misapplication of an unchanged magazine (hicap or locap) such that it holds over 10rds of another caliber/cartridge type for which it wasn't designed.

Sniper3142 has a bit of thinking to do...
Further, since AFAIK there is no case law at all on the point, vehement assertion that either way is 'the truth' is not justified.

OTOH, being the test case to establish the point would be expensive, as well as having a felony at the end if mistaken.

Risking a year in state prison does not seem like a wise course to me.
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Old 03-15-2011, 6:58 AM
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You can legally modify your magazines but OP was asking if he can RE-BUILD his mags into a different caliber. That is a felony.
Have you ever "rebuilt" an engine?

Did you manufacture a new engine, or did you take apart your existing engine and replace the worn out parts, possibly updating some parts with more modern parts? Probably the latter.

They sell "RE-BUILD" magazine kits. They have all the part needed to replace every single worn out, or obsolete part of an EXISTING magazine. If you end up replacing every single part on your EXISTING magazine, you haven't manufactured a new magazine, you have "re-built" your existing hi-cap magazine.
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Old 03-15-2011, 7:20 AM
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Sniper3142 has a bit of thinking to do...
Indeed!
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Old 03-15-2011, 8:02 AM
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Have you ever "rebuilt" an engine?

Did you manufacture a new engine, or did you take apart your existing engine and replace the worn out parts, possibly updating some parts with more modern parts? Probably the latter.

They sell "RE-BUILD" magazine kits. They have all the part needed to replace every single worn out, or obsolete part of an EXISTING magazine. If you end up replacing every single part on your EXISTING magazine, you haven't manufactured a new magazine, you have "re-built" your existing hi-cap magazine.
Do you have problem with reading comprehension? Go back and re-read my post. I said "REBUILD HIS MAGS INTO A DIFFERENT CALIBER."


Quote:
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You can legally modify your magazines but OP was asking if he can RE-BUILD his mags into a different caliber. That is a felony.
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Old 03-15-2011, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RollingCode3 View Post
Do you have problem with reading comprehension? Go back and re-read my post. I said "REBUILD HIS MAGS INTO A DIFFERENT CALIBER."
Exactly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
They sell "RE-BUILD" magazine kits. They have all the part needed to replace every single worn out, or obsolete part of an EXISTING magazine. If you end up replacing every single part on your EXISTING magazine, you haven't manufactured a new magazine, you have "re-built" your existing hi-cap magazine.
I think we all understand what a REBUILD is.

Using the Engine analogy, the OP is talking about "rebuilding" his engine from a 2L Boxer 4-Cylinder into a 3.7L V6.

Did you "rebuild" that 4-Cylinder? Or did you basically manufacture a new V6?

What would the DOT say to you when you went and got that puppy smogged you think? Are you going to try and tell them that it's still a 2L 4-Cylinder?

There is a pretty clear working path from say a 30rd USGI mag to a 30rd PMAG. They have at least one compatible part, they are the same capacity, and they feed the same round.

Explain how you would lawfully go from a 30rd USGI magazine to a 25rd Ciener, or 27rd Black Dog?
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:17 PM
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Thanks for all the input. Here's one more hypothetical. What if I had a 30 round AR-15 mag, and replaced the follower with something that looked like a magazine body complete with feed lips that would feed 22lr. If we used the original body and floorplate, but simply swapped out the follower and spring, would that be legal? The magazine could still feed 5.56 ammo if the follower and spring were swapped. Would it matter if I used a conversion unit instead of a dedicated upper?
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:31 PM
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Here's one more hypothetical. What if I had a 30 round AR-15 mag, and replaced the follower with something that looked like a magazine body complete with feed lips that would feed 22lr.

If we used the original body and floorplate, but simply swapped out the follower and spring, would that be legal? The magazine could still feed 5.56 ammo if the follower and spring were swapped.
My above explanation should really have covered this - you're making a new magazine by changing parts and killing original functionality. So:

Also, 22LR magazines (except for tubular 22 caliber mags) are not immune from hicap status

1. Providing the device only fed 10 or less of 22LR, it's legal.
2. It'd be legal to reassemble mag back to its orig. hicap 30rd 5.56 status.
3. If the new composite mag fed over 10rds of 22LR, you'd likely be considered making a new hicap mag.

Quote:
Would it matter if I used a conversion unit instead of a dedicated upper?
No. The gun is ordinarily completely separate matter for hicap mag status; the only time when they interact is when an over-10rd mag is locked in on a semiauto centerfire rifle.
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Old 03-16-2011, 7:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
Oh really? Before calling bull like that you'd better be prepared to back that up when we're talking about possible FELONY charges here.



Turning a USGI 30rd magazine into a 25rd Ciener magazine is creating an entirely new type of magazine. It doesn't matter that both of them work in an AR15. You've created a new magazine.

This is totally different from modifying a 5.56 magazine so that it can fire both 5.56 and something else like 6.8. It's still the same basic magazine design and can still feed the same original rounds that it was designed for.

Doing otherwise is called felony manufacturing of a large capacity magazine.



Yeah, I'm going with "you're still very wrong" on this one.
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Expanding the capacity of a magazine of a specific cartridge that started at 11+? Legal.

Changing the cartridge of an existing large capacity magazine may very well be "manufacture of a large capacity magazine."

Not advisable.

-Gene

Wanting to stay within the letter of the law ( Even though these mag laws are absolutely ridiculous ) , can I get this answered.

I have rebuilt some of my older aluminum 30 round USGI mags with newer Stainless steel CProducts 40 round magazine kits, all perfectly fine/legal for use with my featureless 223 AR's.

Now, my question is this ( After reading both of your statements ) ...I also own a 458 Socom upper with a muzzle brake instead of a flash hider ...able to be used on my featureless lowers. Using the 30 round USGI mag bodies , the max 458 Socom loadable was 10 rounds...with the minimum amount of curvature of the 40 round mag bodies...I bet they would work fine with 13 or so 458 Socom rounds.

This being used on a featureless lower, what would your thoughts be ?

30 round USGI mags werent intended for 458 Socom as designed...they just happen to work with 10 rounds of a different cartridge....what difference is it between 10 or 13 rounds of that different cartridge in a featureless build ?


By the way, nobody needs more than 10 rounds of 458 Socom Featureless or not....it was just my reading of your 2 statements that had me wanting to stay within the letter of law.

I label my mags used for 458, as well as dremel the front part of the mag for more clearance of the blunt bullets ( As recommended by RRA...but still function perfectly with 223 as originally designed ) ...I wouldnt want to label/modify one of the CProducts magazines if there were even a hint of an issue/legality with doing so. ( Besides, I would test functionality with FTX pointed bullets before labeling/modifying anything )

Thanks in advance.




Out of the 458 Socom FAQ...


" Magazines – the .458 SOCOM was designed to work with any GI/Mil Spec magazine. We have not heard of any particular type or brand of magazine that did not function. Magazine capacities for the different size magazines are as follows:

10 rounds of .223 – 3 rounds of .458 SOCOM

20 rounds of .223 – 7 rounds of .458 SOCOM

30 rounds of .223 – 10 rounds of .458 SOCOM (have heard 12)

40 rounds of .223 – 13 rounds of .458 SOCOM (have heard 15) "

Last edited by shadowofnight; 03-16-2011 at 7:52 AM.. Reason: Added 458 FAQ quote....
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Old 03-16-2011, 9:15 AM
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30 round USGI mags werent intended for 458 Socom as designed...they just happen to work with 10 rounds of a different cartridge....what difference is it between 10 or 13 rounds of that different cartridge in a featureless build ?
That would be legal. You didn't modify the magazine in any way to get +10 rounds of a different caliber.

A lot of .40S&W 10rd mags will also hold and feed 12-13 rounds of 9mm. This is legal.
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:04 PM
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That would be legal. You didn't modify the magazine in any way to get +10 rounds of a different caliber.

A lot of .40S&W 10rd mags will also hold and feed 12-13 rounds of 9mm. This is legal.

Thank you sir
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