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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-13-2011, 7:15 PM
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Default Business idea: Build-a-gun workshop (80% receiver loophole)

Lets assume you buy jigs, presses, parts kits, 80% receivers, and all the necessary equipment to make guns. You would then RENT out this equipment to customers in your store on an appointment basis. You would never touch the gun yourself, but you would provide a video or verbally assist them so you are not considered the manufacturer. You could advertise that no paperwork is needed. Many people may want a gun, but are paranoid and do not want the government to know they have one. With this method, it would be paperless.

Perhaps a gun store with extra space in could have a "workshop" area.

Right now, you either have to know somebody with tools, or buy the tools yourself. Only ARs and AKs are readily available (yes, I know you can make FALs, Sterlings, etc too, but the receivers and other parts are harder to find, at least they were for me).

The ATF will **** a brick if this becomes popular. It should be tried out in anti-gun states first (without the private transfer loophole).

Last edited by colorado_mp5; 03-13-2011 at 7:18 PM..
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:24 PM
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This idea has come up here before. Taking it to its most extreme, it would be not difficult to set up a CNC milling machine so you drop in a receiver blank, push one button, and ten minutes later a ready-to-use receiver pops out. Certainly the person who is operating the machine, even if that only involves feeding in a blank and pressing a button, is the one doing the creation, so it wouldn't require paperwork.

The ATF could argue that the one who configured the machine is the one manufacturing, or that the receiver blank is the manufactured part. I really have no idea how it would all shake out.

See Jim March's thread about 3D "printing" for some related issues.
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  #3  
Old 03-13-2011, 7:26 PM
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when where, i'm buying!
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:31 PM
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A gun store got into a bit of trouble a year or two ago for doing something similar because they were not an 07FFL and manufacturing was taking place on their property.


The bigger problem that you are going to find.... Go to a few build parties to see how people take care of tools that belong to others. That, on top of the fact that tooling becomes worn over time... you're going to go through a LOT of tooling. If you charge a deposit, then it's going to be a fight every time something is broken. If you don't charge a deposit, then you'll hear a lot of "Sorry Bro"

And another problem that you alluded to....
Quote:
Many people may want a gun, but are paranoid and do not want the government to know they have one.
There could be some liability on your part if these people aren't really paranoid, but are rather prohibited.
A build party is one thing... but you're talking about a brick and mortar storefront open to any Schmoe off the street.
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  #5  
Old 03-13-2011, 7:36 PM
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First, don't call it a loophole. It'll attract unwanted attention.
Manufacturing a firearm for personal use is legal (given all the
usual constraints)
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:37 PM
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Yep, for a couple years I've wanted to build a small cnc mill that is like those "penny press" machines at fairs. Install a few at gun shows and purple can make their own receivers right at the show.
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:43 PM
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[QUOTE=CCWFacts;5996924]This idea has come up here before. Taking it to its most extreme, it would be not difficult to set up a CNC milling machine so you drop in a receiver blank, push one button, and ten minutes later a ready-to-use receiver pops out. Certainly the person who is operating the machine, even if that only involves feeding in a blank and pressing a button, is the one doing the creation, so it wouldn't require paperwork.

The 80% lowers could be mass produced from a dedicated CNC machine, then shipped to gun shops. Same goes for the 80% flats.

80% AR lowers just require milling machines and drill presses to finish (there are even jigs for using drill presses alone). These are much cheaper and easier to use than a CNC machine. They could literally fit in the corner of a gun shop. The shop would rent the equipment and jigs. People would pay extra for privacy. I know I would.

80% AK flats need a press, spot welder, rivet "wrench", and drills. This stuff is cheap, and are basically one-time purchases.
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:44 PM
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its a great idea, I've often said the same thing
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
A gun store got into a bit of trouble a year or two ago for doing something similar because they were not an 07FFL and manufacturing was taking place on their property.
Need to make sure the 80% to 81% transition is done by the customer, not the shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
The bigger problem that you are going to find.... Go to a few build parties to see how people take care of tools that belong to others. That, on top of the fact that tooling becomes worn over time... you're going to go through a LOT of tooling. If you charge a deposit, then it's going to be a fight every time something is broken. If you don't charge a deposit, then you'll hear a lot of "Sorry Bro"
Maybe for AKs, but for ARs, all you REALLY need is a drill press and jigs (a milling machine is faster though) as you could just "mill" with the drill bit. You would need new drill bits (you could just have the customer pay for those), and periodic maintenance on the machine. Get a $130 drill press from Harbor Freight, buy the jigs, and you are ready to go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
There could be some liability on your part if these people aren't really paranoid, but are rather prohibited.
A build party is one thing... but you're talking about a brick and mortar storefront open to any Schmoe off the street.
Why would the store be liable at all? Is Walmart responsible if someone buys one of their knives and stabs someone with it?
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Old 03-13-2011, 7:52 PM
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You could also have AR jig rentals from FFLs, with a full deposit given at time of rental.
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Old 03-13-2011, 8:03 PM
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Who is gonna anodize the receivers?
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  #12  
Old 03-13-2011, 8:10 PM
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Quote:
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Who is gonna anodize the receivers?
Either the customer, CNC shop, or some third-party. Does the inside even need to be anodized?
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Old 03-14-2011, 9:45 AM
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...you'd stick cash in the front of a vending machine, press buttons for the options you want (stock, flat top, barrel, etc) and a complete M4 or AK would drop out. Ta-Da. Manufactured by the owner.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:59 AM
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ATF Raided KT Ordnance over the same issue. And you're talking about being even more high profile.

Hope you've got your legal defense fund all saved up!
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:09 AM
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The number of people wanting to do this, after an initial surge, is small and would not support the cost of rent, staff and equipment - and nonemployee liability coverage for Joe Numskull who mills out part of his hand negligently.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:30 AM
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So where do I get this receiver blank, and how do I tell the machine what to do
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2011, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
The number of people wanting to do this, after an initial surge, is small and would not support the cost of rent, staff and equipment - and nonemployee liability coverage for Joe Numskull who mills out part of his hand negligently.
+1

There's always "a bunch" of interest in AR build parties, but even at that, it's no more than a couple of dozen people.

Combine that with there are only a few reasons to do a build from an 80% (pistol, , or prohibited), and the cost of an 80% "paperweight" is only around $50 less than a completed lower of good quality....

It's a recipe for a business failure unless it is a side-service for another business (and it can't be a gun shop unless it's an 07FFL).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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