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  #1  
Old 10-08-2006, 9:07 AM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Default 12GA From Hell in a break action--

I'm visister here and it's nice site.
Two others and I made a long brass 12ga case.
We made brass from bmg cases adding 12ga size rims.
We testing it in heavy barreled guns and
are getting huge energy levels.In a beefed up
Savage 210 we got 730 gr slug to 2900 fps.
Got a NEF chambered for long 3.85" case. And it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel. Dr Rob
Garnick in your state put one in a big Borchardt falling
block action with heavy barrel.Here is picture of the
Savage.Ed.

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  #2  
Old 10-08-2006, 11:57 AM
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long ways from THR , howdy
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2006, 12:19 PM
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Even longer from AR

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  #4  
Old 10-08-2006, 12:41 PM
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Hi Hubel458,

I've been following your project on THR. An impressive project and cool as heck.

[Inside Joke] IMHO, the ultimate graboid gun. "Looks like you broke into the wrong ******* rec room...."
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2006, 7:30 PM
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I want to shoot that bad boy!!!!
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2006, 10:41 PM
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Thanks fellows. A NEF Ultra 12 ga, Rocky Mtn Brass
for original three inch chamber, dies,
600 gr slugs(Dixies are good) and 4500+ ft lbs
is possible.I pass the idea around to get others
into the fun that Rob and I have.Ed
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2006, 12:30 AM
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holy crap that is a fine work of art
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  #8  
Old 10-25-2006, 4:56 PM
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Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we used with RE-15 and RE-7
to have reliable fast ignition.We did
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed
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  #9  
Old 10-25-2006, 5:45 PM
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How much does it cost to build the least expensive version? IIRC it was $6xx-8xx, which would be a steal for this type of performance.
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  #10  
Old 10-26-2006, 8:45 PM
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With the powder I just tested it is best for NEF with
3" chamber. Nef Ultra slug gun is 220-250 bucks, and
Rocky Mtn brass cases are 6 bucks each, and
can be reloaded quite a few times.For brass cases, steel dies.
Dies from Rcbs( they are supposed to have them) I don't know
as I made my own. And some recoil reducers or
lead in the butt stock and big thick recoil pad
on the stock. If you do 12ga reloading you can start out
with plastic cases and a roll crimping setup
for drill press from precision reloading for $13.Ed
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  #11  
Old 11-02-2006, 5:11 PM
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Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger would handle 4759 loads.Ed

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  #12  
Old 11-13-2006, 4:59 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Hot damnn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2006, 8:28 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2006, 8:42 PM
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Don't you want to keep your shoulders where there at ? OK I want one too but damm looks like a hawkin gun.

Whos selling them ?

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  #15  
Old 11-22-2006, 8:42 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Pick up a heavy barrel 12ga 3" NEF Ultra slug gun,
and load up our 4759 loads we show above.Start with
80 gr of 4759, 600 gr slug,thin card over powder
and 1/2" felt wad for cushion, and roll crimp....That
will get you into the feel of big bore recoil without
going all the way to setting up a gun with our full length
brass super power case.Ed
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  #16  
Old 12-09-2006, 1:31 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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We are working on scaling up falling block action
to handle our 12GA FH, and similiar cartridges.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. The Wickcliffe has a nice
style that we like. There is 12GA FH
round on the scaled up action feed
trough. Model is aluminum for easy machining.
Will handle 12ga of any length,
our 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

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  #17  
Old 12-09-2006, 6:54 PM
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Impressive. What is the recoil like?
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2006, 8:56 AM
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Not bad in my guns as they have weight added and
a real big thick recoil pad.Ed.
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  #19  
Old 12-18-2006, 8:38 AM
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Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2006, 8:16 AM
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Bazooka. 3- 200gr marbles would be devasting. But if your making a fahrquar type action why bother with the shotgun type load. The 50 Alaskan will shoot 600 grainers.
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  #21  
Old 12-31-2006, 7:52 PM
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The Alaskan has a third the energy of our long brass 12ga
and the 10 million shotgun only guys can use it that way.
The falling block we want to have built
will work for others than our 12ga. 700NE, 50BMG, 600NE,
my 700HE, etc.Ed
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  #22  
Old 01-09-2007, 4:17 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.



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  #23  
Old 01-24-2007, 7:06 AM
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Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed

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  #24  
Old 01-31-2007, 7:17 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed


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  #25  
Old 02-05-2007, 7:22 PM
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Pump
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2007, 6:04 PM
hubel458 hubel458 is offline
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Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the
block.Ed


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  #27  
Old 02-17-2007, 7:06 PM
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Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed

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  #28  
Old 03-03-2007, 12:57 PM
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Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed


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  #29  
Old 03-10-2007, 4:58 PM
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Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even have long tang for tang sight.Ed

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  #30  
Old 03-13-2007, 1:22 PM
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wow me likey
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  #31  
Old 03-23-2007, 6:18 PM
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Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

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  #32  
Old 04-11-2007, 4:25 PM
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Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2007, 5:00 PM
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Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2007, 7:51 PM
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Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed
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  #35  
Old 04-29-2007, 8:25 PM
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Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed
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  #36  
Old 04-29-2007, 9:33 PM
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Ed,
Awesome pics and it think what you are doing is awesome. I just have a remington 870 pump with slug barrel and was wondering if i could shoot any of these "custom" 12 ga rounds out of it?

I would like to just approach 2000 fps or a little more with maybe a 400 gr. or slightly heavier slug. Any thoughts?
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  #37  
Old 05-01-2007, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1norcalvarmintHunter View Post
Ed,
Awesome pics and it think what you are doing is awesome. I just have a remington 870 pump with slug barrel and was wondering if i could shoot any of these "custom" 12 ga rounds out of it?

I would like to just approach 2000 fps or a little more with maybe a 400 gr. or slightly heavier slug. Any thoughts?
You can do it with slugs no heavier than 400-450gr.
Your barrel not being like NEF, you don't want to go
heavier.Use the VV N110 loads I show. Don't go over
my max.You can do slugs or saboted loads.Ed
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  #38  
Old 05-05-2007, 7:18 PM
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Tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2007, 9:07 AM
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Tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel.
I wish it had a longer 32" barrel..........
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed
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  #40  
Old 06-29-2007, 3:53 PM
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Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759.

Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite
properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle);
we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that also works
with real heavy slugs Ed
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