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  #1  
Old 04-29-2016, 1:35 AM
UPSMike UPSMike is offline
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Smile Opinions on Front Sight Training Institute

It looks as though I am going to get an opportunity to take the 4-day defensive hand gun training in preparation to applying for my ccw. I realize some may say this is overkill for the training requirement for ccw but this is something I won't be able to turn down. I've read their website and I looked at a lot of their videos on you tube, this seems to be handgun training heaven. I am not a novice shooter, no, I've killed many a tin can and paper target in my day, but training for the responsibility for ccw is another thing entirely.

I would like to know what the group thinks about the training. The price is not a factor here. I want to know what you guys know as I have only recently learned of Front Sight.

TIA,
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Old 04-29-2016, 2:40 AM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=518454

Here you go
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Old 04-29-2016, 5:47 AM
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Much better and MODERN training here:
https://www.tacticalperformancecente...dgun-bootcamp/

Calgun members get a 25% discount as explained here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1190500
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Old 04-29-2016, 6:08 AM
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FrontSight is fine training. You will walk away from four day defensive handgun with better understanding of pistol function, drawing from holster, malfunction clearing and a better shot. Very slow moving day one, lots of safety and learning range commands and meeting other students in class (accessing capability). Picks up quickly day two and does not slow down through end. Day four after showing your ability to perform tasks learned on earlier days, is fun. One on one competitions, shooting multiple targets, steel poppers. You should wear concealment garments throughout four day class as CCW class does not have you drawing pistol from holster and involves 30 rounds of live fire.
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Old 04-29-2016, 6:25 AM
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You should get a good basic understanding of the law during the lectures. A lot to learn.
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Old 04-29-2016, 7:30 AM
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I thought the training was good and there was a lot that I took away from the class. The one thing that I did not care for was the fact that they want you to shoot a certain way using a certain method. Tried it and didn't care for it. They put a fair amount of pressure on us to use their method. We had a group of five guys that were all experienced shooters. We stuck to our guns and shot the way that we know how and are comfortable with and performed better than the rest of the class, even over several who had been to the class repeatedly. But it was still good and I learned a lot. There are lots of write-ups that people have written here on the forum about it, what to prepare for, what to bring, where to stay, where to east, etc.

Have fun!
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Old 04-29-2016, 9:31 AM
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If you suffer from perpetual TL;DR syndrome, the **short version is:

* FS is a good forum for honing in your skills and training, especially if you already have explored a handful of techniques
* I do not fully agree with FS's proposed application and execution of those skills
* They teach weaver, but as an iso guy, they didn't make me change
* If you don't care about their credentialing system ("DG" or "Distinguished Graduate", which opens you up for more classes, run the class in the condition you plan to carry. A lot of people were running "concealed" to make DG, but they were doing it with fishing vests to make garment clearing easier. If you don't plan to CCW with a fishing vest, don't train with a fishing vest.
* Remember, always keep an open mind

**Long version, my original post from the FS thread
I was requested to provide feedback on my first FS experience, so I hope my thoughts are useful to some folks.

Overall Impression:
I attended the 4-day defensive handgun course as my first-ever visit. I think it’s a great training facility for the cost. Although I don’t agree with everything they teach, I learned that I’ll really get back what I put in.

My background:
I’ve been shooting for about 3 years and consider myself having just begun my journey. I’m very fortunate to have had the opportunity to train with former law enforcement instructors, become an NRA-certified instructor, and compete in USPSA. With that context, here’s my story:

Pre and Post impressions:
I bought into the expectation that attending FS would throw me back to 1970 and adamantly teach me things like a super bladed weaver stance or to teacup my wrist (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...y_1682017c.jpg ). I expected a ton of Ron Burgundy mustaches, fanny packs, and a bunch of faded pastel granny shorts. I expected something worse than a scientology pitch—I expected the full personification of an Ignatius Piazza spam email at every turn.

But I didn’t encounter those (Ok, there were a few pairs of granny pants). Instead, I encountered well-thought out logistics, tons of staffing, and the largest facility I’d set foot in thus far. The instructors were receptive to how I approached things, as there was mutual understanding of the pros and cons to different schools of thought. What I appreciated most was how the instructors still found key areas for my improvement, and ways to push through those areas. Although I’ve heard instructors are sometimes hit and miss, mine were less bent on teaching me “their way” and more concerned about shepherding me one step closer to excellence.

In terms of how and what they teach, I agree with:
  • The build-up of the marksmanship fundamentals
  • The emphasis on trigger prep, steady trigger press
  • After-action drills (however, I’d prefer enforcing them like you mean it vs just going through the motions)
  • The notion that doing it right is more important than doing it fast
  • Overall I think at the very least, they provide a GREAT stake in the ground for beginners. If they can take the brand new shooters in our class and get them to do headshots in 3 seconds, they’re clearly doing something right. However, I do have minor points of contention.

I disagree with (but understand why)
  • The death ray known as a “controlled pair”. During one of the seminars, the speaker was talking about home invasions, and sometimes the “only thing that’ll put the bad guy down is a controlled pair”. Although I interpret this school of thought as mitigating potential legal action after a defensive shooting, I much prefer the approach, “shoot and keep shooting ‘til the threat is no longer a threat”
  • The absurd amount of tactical loads we did. Although I agree that topping off is important, I think the extent which it was emphasized takes away some of the opportunity to practice emergency reloads under stress. I would have liked to see more emergency reloads to start conditioning real-time responses to a live stoppage.
  • Weaver . However, I understand my heavy bias as more of an iso guy.


I disagree with (and do not understand why)
  • Unholstering to the ready position, let alone the low ready position in its entirety. Instead of being fully extended at a downward 45-degree angle, why not go with the high compressed ready position? This allows for greater leverage/control, a more natural extension to the target (no need to “bowl”, as your sights are a more parallel to the ground), and is more tactically sound.
  • “Pointing in” with the finger on trigger, slack removed… then not firing. At least for me, if I don’t think a subject is a threat, my finger is indexed against the slide. At the very least, if I’m stressed out and my finger is on the trigger ready to fire at any moment, I’d rather not play with the delicacies of holding the trigger between the slack and break.

I think that’s all I have! If anyone has any reasoning that supports the FS methods I disagreed with, I’d love to understand the background and context better. Thanks in advance!
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2016, 9:58 AM
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Here is a link to a write up I did a few years ago after my first trip there.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=493661
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Old 04-30-2016, 12:37 AM
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I have a FS membership....I've actually had one for several years now, but still have not had the chance to actually get over there for any classes. However, I've had a chance to speak with several people who have attended multiple classes. It only takes a couple hours to drive there from my house, so there are a pretty good number of people here locally that also have memberships.

The above reviews seem to be fairly consistent with what most people have to say. It is good training, but everybody does seem to have their own little criticisms....but pretty much anyone will tell you that training is better than no training....and if this is the training that is available to you, you should definitely do it. (I'm not sure anyone would recommend paying the full advertised price for the classes, but it's pretty easy to get discounted classes....pm me if you don't already have that taken care of and I can probably point you in the right direction).

The basic story I get from pretty much everybody I've talked to who's been there, is that yes, they are very set in doing things a certain way. As stated above for example, they want everybody to use a weaver stance, I have heard of them making an occasional exception, but even the guys I know who already use weaver don't really agree with this method of teaching....if someone can put rounds on target more efficiently using a different stance, I don't know why you would want to try to force them to change and relearn something so basic that it has an effect on everything else you try to do.

These sort of nit picks aside, everyone I know who's gone there still says it's definitely worth while. It's not like you can find a place like this in every town, where you can dedicate several days and have the facilities to put this many rounds down range and work on your skills.....but as pretty much everyone I've talked to has said, (and I find it interesting that they all seem to word this almost exactly the same way)......"just don't drink too much of the koolaid"
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Old 04-30-2016, 9:09 AM
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Generally speaking the 4 day can be had for under $100. I paid $45. The accommodations are going to be the cost driver. The other cost is that they don't allow reloaded ammunition, so you have to buy factory new ammo.

Training is frequently what you make of it. Shooting different techniques isn't bad, and if your just starting out you have picked a preference. There is value to the training.

If your considering the training remember it's held just past the middle of nowhere in the desert. You don't really want to be there between July and September. So choose wisely.

The Front Sight is now on a number of California agency training lists, so check to see if you can full fill your requirement well there. They also train for Arizona, Nevada, Utah and Florida.
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Old 04-30-2016, 9:46 PM
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They have the most hideous website I have seen in the last ten years. Try it on your computer and make sure your speakers are on- www.frontsight.com
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2016, 10:10 PM
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There are a lot of gun schools that I would not send my mom nor sister to.....

Front Sight has done an excellent job in reaching a large number of shooters who would normally never take a class...


For learning the basics, it is a great value....
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Old 04-30-2016, 10:31 PM
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So many quality courses within an hour of your locale I don't see a reason to drive 8 hours and stay in a hotel for 4 days for training that at best could be described as adequate.
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Old 05-01-2016, 5:39 PM
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Front Sight Life member since 2002 and i offer free classes here:
http://FreeEstatePlanningSeminar.com

Classes are top notch and very safe compared to other schools.

But to really ramp up quick, or achieve new levels you never thought possible, try the private training:
http://ow.ly/XS3MU

Front Sight is freeway close, flight hub close, and you will never regret training there.
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Old 05-01-2016, 8:41 PM
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I was a student at FS half a dozen times before applying for a job there. I worked 1 4-day a month for 9 months out of Nearly 3 years in a row. I had a blast. I haven't worked there for the past 2 years but will be going back for a class in a little more than a year so I can renew my out of state permits.

Nothing like seeing someone you thaught was going to kill you on day 1 become controlled and confident with a weapon by the end of day 4. Even the most terrifyingly confused nervous grandmother goes home changed, capable of clearing malfunctions and running a weapon competently. I only saw one guy pull himself out of a class because he wasn't able to do the techniques in his old age. I remember the first time I saw a guy in a wheel chair on the range I new this place was out to do what they preach.

I've even had my 2 young daughters take their survival class. I got my girls a PS4 for last Christmas, the smile was half the size of the I just shot a FULL-AUTO smile. Speaking of FA. Where else can you spend a lunch break warming up the barrel of a Thompson?

It's not an "operator" school. Not intended to make you Jason Bourne. To many people carry without understanding exactly how much responsibility it is to do so. They hammer the moral, ethical and most relevant here in blue states the legal aspect of CCW.

I used a IWB holster for the majority of the training I did there and DGed 2 times with the same homemade IWB holster. They recommend the open front concealment but do teach and encourage learning closed front concealment to those who prefer. I DGed once on each method. I did some of the more advanced classes as well , night, off hand and injured techniques which were great too.

They are good at what they do but not everyone wants what they teach. Can't go wrong in my opinion...
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Last edited by Dellinger; 05-01-2016 at 9:13 PM..
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:10 PM
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I enjoy revisiting the basics and I have met some really nice people from all over the country.
Like some have said, you can nit pic this or that, but if you have a shooting style that's works for you, they are OK with that.
Tac reloads are important in IDPA. That said, I have my own method and they are also fine with that.
The only "negative" is seeing guys dressed like Iraqi operators, scarves and all.
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Old 05-03-2016, 1:43 PM
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I was in a class where a guy was in full camouflage fatigues decked out with all the tactical gear and the range master asked. Why are you dressed that way? The guy looked him in the eye and said, I wannabe waring the same stuff I'll be waring when I need to use these guns...

My wife looked at me like, whatttt!

Militia members.
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Old 05-08-2016, 7:37 PM
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Thanks for all the info. Sounds like I can't go wrong.
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Old 05-08-2016, 8:52 PM
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Frontsight offers top notch training. You will love the four day class + CCW. The marketing is atrocious. Set up a rule in your inbox to route the daily emails into an independent folder and all you'll be left with is the outstanding training!
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Old 05-09-2016, 9:29 PM
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No knowledge is lost when it comes to Shooting & carrying firearm. Front sight is far from a handgun training heaven, but it has its own place in firearm training.
Just make sure you don't buy the membership for thousands of dollars as listed on their website. Front sight has a thread here and you can get the membership around $100.
After you are done with front sight experience, step up your game to Alias training, they hold great classes at Prado.
Good luck
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Old 05-19-2016, 7:02 PM
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I was at the gunshow this weekend and one booth had a flyer and info on Front Sight. The flyer and all material on the websight list classes in the $1000-$2000 price range. But the guy at the booth said that if you purchase a yearly membership for $250 then you would able to take any and all classes they offer at no charge with the membership.

This sounds incorrect or like some kind of scam.

Does anyone know abut this membership for $250 and if that info is accurate about not needing to pay the class fees if you have the $250 membership?
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Old 05-20-2016, 5:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911CA View Post
I was at the gunshow this weekend and one booth had a flyer and info on Front Sight. The flyer and all material on the websight list classes in the $1000-$2000 price range. But the guy at the booth said that if you purchase a yearly membership for $250 then you would able to take any and all classes they offer at no charge with the membership.

This sounds incorrect or like some kind of scam.

Does anyone know abut this membership for $250 and if that info is accurate about not needing to pay the class fees if you have the $250 membership?
Sounds a little high to me. (And the memberships are not "yearly" but lifetime.)

BTW, take my self-paced online "Estate Planning 101" course, and get a special reward at the end:
http://lawnews.tv/courses/
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911CA View Post
I was at the gunshow this weekend and one booth had a flyer and info on Front Sight. The flyer and all material on the websight list classes in the $1000-$2000 price range. But the guy at the booth said that if you purchase a yearly membership for $250 then you would able to take any and all classes they offer at no charge with the membership.

This sounds incorrect or like some kind of scam.

Does anyone know abut this membership for $250 and if that info is accurate about not needing to pay the class fees if you have the $250 membership?
Just buy a lifetime Diamond membership off eBay for $19.

The $1k-$2k price for classes is just fluff to make the $250 sound like a good deal.
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Old 06-17-2016, 2:03 PM
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Just got back from my first 4 day Def. Handgun + CCW "tour" at FS.

People's descriptions here are pretty accurate. I have a few point/questions/quibbles.

As someone that trained for years, I don't get the people that quibble about this or that technique at FS. Unless you feel it's factually incorrect or unsafe (and I saw nothing even remotely like that). I've taken hundreds of hours of handgun training and still got a lot out of it. In the martial arts, when you visit another school, tournament or seminar, you use your fundamentals, but try to embrace and open your mind to the instructor's perspective for the duration. I don't understand why experienced shooters don't do the same if they choose to go to FS.

As the other former instructor said in this thread, I can vouch for them turning people into pretty competent and even relatively fast shooters very quickly. We had to 70+ yo ladies taking the class that had barely even held a pistol (they were using rentals) before first day of class. By the last day, they're drawing from concealment, making headshots and clearing Type 3 malfunctions with their dainty hands. The system works quickly and safely.

I was super impressed with the organization of it all. Very structured and fast paced without feeling rushed. I felt like my time was respected.

About the pitches and marketing: almost NONE of that happens while you are AT front sight. I wanted to clarify that...people are complaining about the email/phone marketing you already get. During 5 days there, there were 2 planned lunchtime pitches (as it they're going to talk in the front of a giant room and you can listen or not). One was for high end hearing protection, and the other was for gun safes they sell. There were NO pitches about FS itself or its properties. Go without fear that you're going to be pitched like it's a timeshare. Just not the case.

Listen to the recommended equipment list. If you already have different stuff, bring it and see what they say. I brought and began using a kydex FBI cant holster for the class. They didn't even mention it. But after day 2, I figured out that my draw was slower because I had to "correct" the cant after coming out of the holster to avoid bowling. Yup...the mention not recommending FBI cant holsters right there. So I switched to my backup vertical cant and shaved 1/2 a second off my draw.

Next to your gun, belt and holster, it appeared to me that your selection of pants made the most difference as to your ease and enjoyment. Pants?! What the hell, right? Well, once the class gets going you're really going to be doing lots of tactical and administrative loads/unloads. You're going to be reloading behind the firing line. Having pants/shorts that facilitate the "reloading pattern" as a small group of us took to caling it, made the difference between people that got into a rhythmn and those that were constantly fumbling with their gear. I ended up with using the LA Police gear/5.11 tactical pants with stiffened Instructor belt, right side blade-tech holster, support side 2 magazine holder. Fully loaded spare magazine in strong side back pocket as an emergency backup (malfunction clearance, mag problem, etc). One fully loaded magazine in support side back pocket. Front strong side pocket had about 40 loose roounds in it.

Worked like this: Step to line unloaded. Do initial load using magazine in support side back pocket, leaving mag holder on belt full. Cycle through turns until my relay rotated back. When in coaching relay, top off all tactically reloaded mags with rounds from front strong side pocket, and restage as above. Cargo pockets were used only for dumping tactially reloaded mags as "dump pouches."

This probably seems like minutiae, but a handful of us commented that it looked like about half the class was fighting trying to find this setup for about half the 4 days.

Go, listen, have fun and take what fits into your defensive plan and put the rest aside.
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