[bwiese]

Hiya all...

Back from a 6 day stint in Eastern Oregon - vacation + family visit before starting a new gig. Flew San Jose to Boise, ID roundtrip via Southwest. Travelled with a Pelican stuffed w/2 ARs (one ACOG4X, one w/EOtech), a 10mm pistol, some hicaps for the ARs, and 450+ rounds of M193 (some 10mm in the mix too).

Pleasantly surprised at ease coming and going with firearms with Southwest. Apparently 5 other guys had flown out on Southwest earlier in the day so the gate agent girls were quite unperturbed.

Southwest has you put one "Firearms Declared" tag per gun in your gun case, which is different than Alaska/Horizon - whatever.

Even though they're not supposed to do it this way, I had to give them the combos for the padlocks on the Pelican case so TSA could inspect it in the bowels of the airport. I suppose they coulda summoned me to a private area where I could open it. If the TSA wants to violate FAA law, fine with me.

On return flight from Boise, I just carried my tagged case to the 'oversized luggage' area and the TSA guy inspected it right in front of me after I unlocked it. (He was a gun guy, his father works at Cabela's, and enjoyed seeing the nice toys - though Idaho is a free state and there's prob plenty of unneutered ARs up there.)

Neither the outgoing or return trip's gun matters took more than 3 minutes total to deal with, and it was not regarded as anything exceptional.

I did include statement sheet in my Pelican about their being "legal, registered assault weapons", and that I was indeed allowed to exit and reeenter CA with them and their hicap magazines. I also stapled a copy of my AW reg form to it for a "just in case" if some wiseacre SJ cop didn't know what was what (as seemed to happen to another member here yesterday after he was burglarized).

I was fairly nicely dressed/presentable when I flew ("biz casual" with well-shined western boots), and was wearing one of my customary Smith & Wesson caps. Both ways I was asked (without evil intent) if I worked for Smith - the latter incident by another TSA guy. (Answer: "Unfortunately, no - but I do own lots of their fine products.")

Hmm, wonder if I get another free cap if I buy a new M&P-15 (hey, it's OLL!)



BTW: it was rather refreshing driving around in E. Oregon with 2 ARs, uncased, often thrown in the back seat. The motel folks recognized the gun case and asked, "Goin' huntin'?"

[50 Freak]

I flew out of SJ on SW this weekend too. Noticed the one page instructions on carrying firearms taped in front of their booths.

Thought it was a little weird at the time. Guess SW does have a lot of gun nuts traveling with them.

I may have to bring some of my toys to Las Vegas next month. Guess it's going to be on SouthWest.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by 50 Freak

I flew out of SJ on SW this weekend too. Noticed the one page instructions on carrying firearms taped in front of their booths.

Thought it was a little weird at the time. Guess SW does have a lot of gun nuts traveling with them.

I may have to bring some of my toys to Las Vegas next month. Guess it's going to be on SouthWest.

Alaska/Horizon is gun-friendly too.

Man, I had a great trip. BBQs, guns, family, relaxed small town atmosphere. The Flying J truck stop we often went to for lunch or dinner (my aunt & uncle are seniors and don't do much home cooking) actually has good food. Wish there were one near my home for regular dining purposes - or maybe not, I'd get too fat.

[WokMaster1]

Plenty of Birkenstock wearing hippies totting "evil" rifles up there?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by 50 Freak

I flew out of SJ on SW this weekend too. Noticed the one page instructions on carrying firearms taped in front of their booths.

Thought it was a little weird at the time. Guess SW does have a lot of gun nuts traveling with them. .......

You got to remember that this last weekend was the dove opener. Flights out of SJ to Phoenix on Thurs./Friday had lots of hunters. I counted 10 on the thursday evening flight alone ( and those are only the ones I saw).

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by WokMaster1

Plenty of Birkenstock wearing hippies totting "evil" rifles up there?

This is *EASTERN* Oregon. The Cascades divide it politically.

Since this is a college town you do see some noserings, Birkenstocks, etc. But those are the younger folks. There are some older semi-hippy folks but these are more 'mountain man' types, and these are likely libertarian pro-gun types.

.gov employees aren't too welcome in the hilly/backwoods areas up there.

Most residents, though, are very casual - jeans/shorts/tennies/boots.

Haven't seen any open carry but *tons* of folks have CCW.

[faterikcartman]

I too read the TSA gun rules on their website when I flew in and out of Indianapolis a few years ago.

I for one was not happy about, nor willing, to give my keys and combo to the TSA guys in white short sleve shirts and black ties.

I had $15,000 worth of shotguns in my Americase and if you don't know which way is up parts can fall out if you open the case upside down. I'm not going to have an ape scratch my Perazzi (or steal it for that matter).

What a NIGHTMARE!

When I decided I would rather take a rental car home to San Diego I couldn't even get my guns back.

My saving grace was never raising my voice or getting angry (at least visibly).

I was told by one white shirt TSA knucklehead in particular that:

(1) he was the head honcho as far as the airport in Indianapolis was concerned;

(2) he had a right to cover up his nameplate (which was previously uncovered) so that I could NOT read his name because of national security reasons;

(3) the TSA at Indy did NOT have to follow the TSA rules and regs I read at the TSA website;

(4) he did NOT have to show me a copy of the rules for Indy that say, in contradiction to the TSA's web posted rules, I have to give up my key and combo because of national security reasons; and

(5) I could not watch him inspect my guns as they did at the airport in San Diego, due to, you guessed it, national security reasons.

After hearing this I just asked for my gun case back and I would find another way home.

An hour later I still didn't have my guns and no one could tell me when or if I would get them back.

I started asking for a way to contact the TSA but was told there was no way to contact them and the person with the most authority at the airport was the white shirt black tie kid who told me the BS above.

So I just stood in line for about 35 minutes asking over and over again politely, quietly, and with a smile, for a number to the TSA headquarters. After the line behind me grew to about 50 people, and I wasn't acting in any way they could call beligerent and arrest me, the number that didn't exist suddenly came into existence!

It was a "real deal" phone number not likely meant for the public but for airport personnel. Now keep in mind that I'm an attorney so your mileage may vary on pulling this off yourself. I got through to a TSA Special Agent investigator in Washington D.C.

I told him what was true from my perspective: two TSA employees who refused to give me their names and covered up their nametags stole two shotguns worth $15,000.

Within minutes I was paged and met up with two of Indianapolis' finest, two different dudes in white shirts and black ties, the original two, and a new guy wearing a very nice suit and looking and sounding clearly like he was the real head honcho far above the pay scale of the kid in the white shirt and black tie.

Here's what I got:

Everyone's real name and the business card and direct line to the head honcho, I didn't have to give my keys or combo to anyone, I got to open the case myself and stand right there while they inspected them, the jerk who told me the BS originally was told to "step away from the case Tom" and "not quite a terrorist's assault weapon is it Tom?", and I was told to just call ahead next time I came through Indianapolis and they would be glad to inspect the guns my way not theirs.

I also got tremendous satisfaction.

However, I also had an important lesson reinforced: give government power and it will go to the heads of those who get it. They see you as little people and they only get worse the more power you give them.

Believe me (and I'm not speaking to you here Bill, just in general), when it comes time for you to be issued your "Learn Chinese the Easy Way" book, or your official prayer rug, you are never going to get the chance to use your guns to defend yourself or your country.

Long before the so-called "invasion", your own governemnt will have disarmed you to prevent you from fighting back. They will come one at a time the way Stalin had people grabbed for the gulag. You won't help yourself because you'll tell yourself it must be a misunderstanding and you'll clear everything up at the station. And your neighbours won't help you because they'll tell themselves you must have a dark secret and it won't, after all, happen to them right?

I will never feel good about the Patriot Act or clamping down on law abiding citizens until we've at least tried clamping down on foreign muslim fanatics first to see if that will work.

End of rant.

[bwiese]

From a practical standpoint, I really didn't care to worry if the TSA were following their own rules & regs. They're gonna have a hard time stealing guns, these are 'shooter' guns about $1+K apiece w/ optics, along with a $500 handgun) - not delicate Perazzi artwork. Plus, I have a whole pile more of ARs though it'd be a shame to lose a reg'd AW.

I think some of the paperwork in my case - very detailed, etc. - may put the fear of gawd in typical TSA luggage drone anyway. They are busy enough anyway it doesn't appear they even remove the rifles, etc. they just poke around. Of course, chambers are empty and locked open. They look under the foam side pads sometimes. [I think the X-ray does most of the work for things like gun cases- a couple of years ago (post-9/11 a year or two) I took a few frames of unexposed 35mm film off a roll in a dark room and put it in an opaque plastic sheath. The film frames were all pretty fogged after development, in contrast to unused film that didn't go on the trip and that was developed as a control.]

Didn't wanna deal with delays & grief, I was on a short vacation before starting a new job.

I've done this for the last 6 years without problems. Of course, it's always SJ or SF to Oregon or Idaho or Nevada, I lead a boring life

[WokMaster1]

So what is the "real deal" phone number? Feel like sharing? I think it is good thing to have for situations like this.

[hoffmang]

On the risk of firearms thefts while flying - which local TSA rep wants the fact that airport personnel are stealing firearms to get public on their watch...

-Gene

[furryrabbit]

I too flew Southwest in the last month and was happy with how easy it was to travel with them. I have noticed a difference in the way Oakland and San Jose do business. At Oakland they kept me, keys, case, and guns together and at San Jose they took my keys and returned them to me at the gate. At the other end of where I usually fly weapons is both Vegas and Nashville that have been great and easy to deal with. I only fly Southwest when I am taking weapons anywhere because the staff always seems to be receptive to them.

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by bwiese

... though Idaho is a free state and there's prob plenty of unneutered ARs up there.

This week's understatement. Yet another advantage to 2-state residency

-hanko

[MysteryCereal]

Hi guys, I don't post often but I just wanted to give my opinion. I happen to work for TSA (in the checked baggage area). You DO have every right to be present when we inspect the firearm. To tell you the truth, we really don't mind. The majority of the people I work with own firearms and 3 of them just got talked into buying some RRA lowers to build up. We understand how much firearms can mean to people so any request to be present (at least in our area) is not a big deal. SWA did recently change their policy regarding the checking in of firearms. We DO NOT check to see if a gun is a registered assault weapon or anything of the sort. All we care about is trying to visually inspect the firearm through the X-Ray to make sure no ammunition is loaded in the chamber and that there are no loose rounds. We routinely get 3 letter agency personal checking in their full-auto/3-round burst weapons. All we do is gawk at them then send them on there merry way. Only time a LEO would be called in is if there is loose ammo. Then it is up to the sole discretion of the LEO if he would like to run the serial number on a weapon. From my personal experience, they don't want to. It would just create more paperwork at the end of the day.

[MysteryCereal]

Forgot to add..

To faterikcartman
All I can say is I'm sorry. Some TSA folk that I met seem to think that just because we are Federal Employee, that we can tell people what to do and have a big-headed attitude. I understand that we are little more then rent-a-cops in most peoples eyes. Which I understand :-p While I have heard (from fellow coworkers) that we are allowed to cover our DHS badges, because they contain our last names, we are supposed to always have our other name tag showing. That has our first name and 5 digit employee number. There behavior at Indy is inexcusable.

[hoffmang]

Mystery,

Huge thanks for posting.

-Gene

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by MysteryCereal

Hi guys, I don't post often but I just wanted to give my opinion. I happen to work for TSA (in the checked baggage area). You DO have every right to be present when we inspect the firearm. To tell you the truth, we really don't mind.

One problem is airport architecture - like SJ's or SF's - and that the airline folks don't want you to meet the TSA, or they don't understand that the TSA is not really supposed to have the key or combo.

I suppose I could ask for the TSA guy to meet me somewhere, but there is limited/no private area around to examine the area, and I think if they pulled out 2 ARs in a semipublic area some folks might freak.

[bwiese]

I must say every TSA person I've had to deal with concerning travel with guns has been cool/knowledgable. They seem to be a different breed than the screeners at the Xray machines.

[MysteryCereal]

Originally Posted by bwiese

One problem is airport architecture - like SJ's or SF's - and that the airline folks don't want you to meet the TSA, or they don't understand that the TSA is not really supposed to have the key or combo.

I suppose I could ask for the TSA guy to meet me somewhere, but there is limited/no private area around to examine the area, and I think if they pulled out 2 ARs in a semipublic area some folks might freak.

I totally understand where you are coming from. In San Diego at least, directly behind the Southwest ticket counter is a belt that they pop the luggage on. And right behind that wall/conveyor belt is the checked baggage screening area. We normally don't allow people back there without a SIDA badge but SWA will escort you back into our cave if you request. Unfortunatly, some airports have there checked baggage screening out in the public area. Having never worked in an area like that, I can't comment on how the screening would go. I assume that if asked, and the TSA employee's weren't complete jerks, they could find a room for private screening just like they do at the passenger screening area for jewelers and the such.

Ohh also, it is in our rules never to actually touch the weapon. Now I can't tell you that all airports follow that rule, but that IS the rule. :-D

[MysteryCereal]

Originally Posted by bwiese

I must say every TSA person I've had to deal with concerning travel with guns has been cool/knowledgable. They seem to be a different breed than the screeners at the Xray machines.

Lol, we see it that way too. There are passenger screeners and there are baggage screeners. Passanger screeners have to put up with people throwing shoes at them all day and taking peoples bottles of lotion. (I hate working in that area but I'm called there from time to time) Baggage folk don't really interact with the public, so we tend to not be as jaded when it comes to customer service. In SAN airport, with SWA at least, we run all the checked baggage through a couple huge X-Ray machines. Only if the bag "alarms" do we check it out.

[50 Freak]

At Oakland they kept me, keys, case, and guns together and at San Jose they took my keys and returned them to me at the gate.

Aren't you by federal law to keep possession of the keys to your lock at all times?

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by 50 Freak

Aren't you by federal law to keep possession of the keys to your lock at all times?

Yes, but if one element of the Fed gov't is willing to conspire against another, I'm not too worried about being caught in the middle if I'm acting on their instructions.

[Blackwater OPS]

I modified my "airport" gun cases to accept the "TSA approved" locks, the ones TSA has keys to. They can look all the want, but I don't think they ever have. I usually put my gun stuff inside my other luggage and I never see an "inspected" sticker. My guess is they don't see the gun(s) on the machine! Likely since its usually a broken down semi HG or my 342PD.

+1 for southwest, never had a problem. I did have a HUGE problem with TSA once, I was selected for a random search which took about 10 min, after a 20 min wait to check in(can't check in online when you have firearms)and a 20 min wait in the security line. No problem though, I was an hour early just in case. Well, it turns out the moron TSA screener forgot to stamp my "special" boarding pass (it's those checker pattern ones) so I could not get on the plane and I missed my flight.

So I head back there, and I'm a little pissed since my luggage just left with my flight and TSA is clearly at fault. Well not only do they refuse to correct the error but they search me again, and took *extra care*/. I needed a smoke when the guy was done. They even tried to take my creds! At that point enough was enough, and I, well informed the whole airport THOSE were staying with me. Nightmare. Bottom line, if they ever try to give me one of those bording passes again, I will refuse it. (Sorry for the rant)

[newtothis]

What happens is a weapon is stolen while under the auspices of the TSA and there inspection process? I expect it'd be a federal case . Would there be lie detectors, etc? I mean the potention of a loose weapon in the airport or on airplanes...

[faterikcartman]

Originally Posted by WokMaster1

So what is the "real deal" phone number? Feel like sharing? I think it is good thing to have for situations like this.

I put it into my cell phone at the time; which I no longer have! DOH!

[faterikcartman]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

On the risk of firearms thefts while flying - which local TSA rep wants the fact that airport personnel are stealing firearms to get public on their watch...

-Gene

I never thought for a moment these guys were really going to steal my guns. What they were doing was trying to show me they were in charge and I better just be and good boy and go along with things. I didn't want some knuckle head banging up and scratching my guns so I did what I needed to do to show them they weren't in charge and protect the finish on my guns.

[faterikcartman]

A little bit of extra information:

There was no hassle at all in San Diego.

When I first arrived in Indy (the trouble happened on the way home), they had baggage pickup literally 20 to 25 feet from the door to the street with no security person matching bagage claim info--nothing (late night arival so no one was around at all).

I started out the trip with a buddy but he took a different flight for the second half of the trip after a layover somewhere. But as I grab my Americase I notice his case with his $10,000 Perazzi is spinning around. I just couldn't take off knowing that thing would be there for an hour before his flight arived so I waited.

But he had no idea his gun would be on the earlier flight.

Beware folks, or you may lose a gun someday flying the friendly skies. If someone had walked off with his Americase (it is obvious what is inside one) I think he could only have made a claim for $250.

Finally, I would have given anything for an even keeled TSA guy like our poster above.

[artherd]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Even though they're not supposed to do it this way, I had to give them the combos for the padlocks on the Pelican case so TSA could inspect it in the bowels of the airport. I suppose they coulda summoned me to a private area where I could open it. If the TSA wants to violate FAA law, fine with me.

I carry a copy of the statute with me for just this reason. I have yet to need it, but if I do I will be very polite and offer to connect TSA with proper legal consul. However, I will not be coerced or entraped into violating the law, so we will be at impass untill someone's boss gets called. They do not get the keys, period.

Neither the outgoing or return trip's gun matters took more than 3 minutes total to deal with, and it was not regarded as anything exceptional.

This has been my expierence as well. Several times TSA hasn't even asked me to open the case, just x-ray'd it with their more powerful carryon luggage x-ray machine and that's it. (I did field strip the <glock or FN pistol usually> gun so there was absolutely no question as to it's 'unloaded' status.)

[artherd]

faterikcartman, shoot me an e-mail when you get a chance.
-Ben.



I bet they figure that criminals don't have the stones to walk into an airport, look up a Federal (TSA) agent, and declare that they have firearms.

It has been my expierence, that when approached with "Hi there, Pursuant to Title 18 of the US Code, I need to declare an unloaded firearm." everyone is very friendly and accomodating. As mentioned, it could be a machinegun for all they generally care, so long as it is unloaded!

Originally Posted by MysteryCereal

Hi guys, I don't post often but I just wanted to give my opinion. I happen to work for TSA (in the checked baggage area). You DO have every right to be present when we inspect the firearm. To tell you the truth, we really don't mind. The majority of the people I work with own firearms and 3 of them just got talked into buying some RRA lowers to build up. We understand how much firearms can mean to people so any request to be present (at least in our area) is not a big deal. SWA did recently change their policy regarding the checking in of firearms. We DO NOT check to see if a gun is a registered assault weapon or anything of the sort. All we care about is trying to visually inspect the firearm through the X-Ray to make sure no ammunition is loaded in the chamber and that there are no loose rounds. We routinely get 3 letter agency personal checking in their full-auto/3-round burst weapons. All we do is gawk at them then send them on there merry way. Only time a LEO would be called in is if there is loose ammo. Then it is up to the sole discretion of the LEO if he would like to run the serial number on a weapon. From my personal experience, they don't want to. It would just create more paperwork at the end of the day.

[echoplex]

Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS

I modified my "airport" gun cases to accept the "TSA approved" locks, the ones TSA has keys to. They can look all the want, but I don't think they ever have. I usually put my gun stuff inside my other luggage and I never see an "inspected" sticker.

This company sells locks that show if the TSA opened them or not. Not endorsing them since they look fairly weak, but the option is there if you wanted such a lock. 1/4" shackle, $11.95 shipped. - http://www.tamperseal.com/

[AYEAREFIFTEEN]

Originally Posted by echoplex

This company sells locks that show if the TSA opened them or not. Not endorsing them since they look fairly weak, but the option is there if you wanted such a lock. 1/4" shackle, $11.95 shipped. - http://www.tamperseal.com/

I don't understand why people bother to lock the luggage anyway. After TSA takes the lock off the luggage to inspect it, they don't put them back on. At least that is my experience.

Three flights, three missing TSA approved locks. Would that be considered theft?

[rips31]

Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN

I don't understand why people bother to lock the luggage anyway. After TSA takes the lock off the luggage to inspect it, they don't put them back on. At least that is my experience.

Three flights, three missing TSA approved locks. Would that be considered theft?

the answer is nylon zip ties. they'll cut them off and put their own back on after they search.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by AYEAREFIFTEEN

I don't understand why people bother to lock the luggage anyway. After TSA takes the lock off the luggage to inspect it, they don't put them back on. At least that is my experience.

Well your guns had better be locked up - esp pistols & AWs coming into the airport, and while travelling in CA!

[lpspinner]

Since I work for the one of the mainline carriers not a discount one I can say that I've never had a problem checking in firearms. At SFO the x-ray machine is in public so you can watch them and they can relock the case in front of you. In Denver, their Odd size checkin is where you take firearms. The inspection area is on the other side of the terminal, but you can watch and lock. I haven't lost a TSA lock yet.

I would say that of the Bay Area Airports, SFO is the easist with firearms. AT least with the airline I work for.

At one time 3 years ago, I accepted a promotion to Denver, so every week I was transporting several firearms. No issues. The people at Indy have been nice, but I can't remember if I ever had to go thru security. Yes I'm SIDA badge in a lot of places.

One of my coworkers came into my office with a xerox copy of a newspaper article telling about how so many guns are stolen from the ORD (O'hare) airport. They just outright disappear and they haven't figured out how yet. But most of the weapons stolen are from LEO's traveling.

[MysteryCereal]

Hey guys, another thing I want to say. While those TSA locks are easier for us to open, most every TSA lock (any look with the style of 3 or 4 circular number dials) can be open within 10 or so seconds. If you know what to look for, the combonation is actually visible if you look under the dial closely enough. Kinda hard to explain, but just thought I'd tell you so you don't feel too secure with those locks.