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  #1  
Old 02-05-2011, 6:57 PM
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Default If you could design the perfect rifle

What would it be? My Dad and I are talking about starting our own company, he has years and years of precision manufacturing under his belt, we were watching "Sons of Guns" and he called them hacks. I challenged him to do it better. My mission would be to design something like the 700, very adaptable, affordable and easy to maintain. I would like to up the accuracy, improve the trigger, and smooth out the action out of the box.

What are some idiosyncrasies you don't like about certain rifles? How would you fix them? Am I completely out of my mind?
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2011, 7:58 AM
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My .02.... For a start:

A 3-lug, 60-degree bolt lift bolt-action with integral 20moa picatinny rail that takes M700 triggers and drops into a M700 footprint, in stainless steel all for $500.
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Old 02-06-2011, 9:34 AM
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The Barnard S comes close, but the locking lugs make for a squirrly proposition using AI mags. I've never seen the AI and HS mags up close, but the Kiwis recommend the HS mags. Maybe if the lugs were made a shade narrower.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phish View Post
The Barnard S comes close, but the locking lugs make for a squirrly proposition using AI mags. I've never seen the AI and HS mags up close, but the Kiwis recommend the HS mags. Maybe if the lugs were made a shade narrower.
Unfortunately I haven't found a Barnard for $500.........
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  #5  
Old 02-22-2011, 3:10 PM
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Something that shoots 7.62x54 so I can afford the ammo.
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Old 02-22-2011, 3:49 PM
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If you could design the perfect rifle...

Free, government issued, and required to be kept well maintained at the home for defense of the nation.

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Old 02-22-2011, 4:23 PM
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Standardize the bolt face to front action ring face distance to make barrel changes fuss free. It will also allow you to interchange bolts to change cartridges easier and you could put the feed lips in a detachable magazine so you wouldn't have to modify the rails when you change cartridge size. You could also standardize the safety to a three position tang safety so you could more easily make the action ambidextrous.
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  #8  
Old 02-22-2011, 4:29 PM
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For one thing, I definitely wouldn't start by naming it "PS74 Multical" and attempting to market a product that does not physically exist except in a certain delusional individual(s)'s mind(s)
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  #9  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:03 PM
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copy and paste the cheytac.
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  #10  
Old 02-24-2011, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalMoose View Post
What would it be? My Dad and I are talking about starting our own company, he has years and years of precision manufacturing under his belt, we were watching "Sons of Guns" and he called them hacks. I challenged him to do it better. My mission would be to design something like the 700, very adaptable, affordable and easy to maintain. I would like to up the accuracy, improve the trigger, and smooth out the action out of the box.

What are some idiosyncrasies you don't like about certain rifles? How would you fix them? Am I completely out of my mind?
In a sense you are both right. They are hacks, and you are completely out of your mind. Quality costs, low cost comes at a price.
In another sense, the sons are not hacks but rather a type of small shop custom fabricator kind of like custom cycle maker types
but with a bit less panache. As far as making your own customs, I would suggest that if you have to ask the questions you are asking,
you probably want to gather some more hands on experience with the various receivers and rifles already on the market. I understand that you are asking exactly this, but it seriously requires hands on knowledge. For instance, the best rig on the bench will likely not be the best rig in tactical. Different uses, different needs, different tastes. Hope that helps. just out of curiosity, what area of manfacturing did your pop specialize in?
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Last edited by bridgeport; 02-24-2011 at 9:03 PM..
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  #11  
Old 03-04-2011, 3:51 PM
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To start with, you should research what's out there. There are many good custom actions for anything from serious money to really serious money. It's probably not worth doing unless you can either beat them on price, or features that aren't available. Just after WWII benchrest began with Mauser actions. When the Rem 700 appeared in the 1950s it virtually replaced everything anyone was using. Most (but certainly not all) of the custom actions used in benchrest are a clone of the 700. The first thing that came along were good triggers exemplified by the Jewel, most deem the best. Then they began sleeving the action to make it stiffer. A 700 can still be made competitive in benchrest, but by the time you've finished it costs as much as a custom action. When the first custom actions were made they copied the Rem 700 because all the good triggers were designed for it. It has some limitations, but a completely new action needs to be designed to deal with them. If you want to start with a clean sheet of paper and design a new system including a trigger it might be worth doing. Unless you're going after really serious accuracy (by that I mean benchrest accuracy 1/8 MOA 25 shot aggs), It's probably not worth doing, IMO.
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Old 03-04-2011, 5:16 PM
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yea i would like to have a rifle where it would be easy to change barrel

i'm talking like a half rotation with some type of locking detent

also have replaceable polymer magazine wells for various magazines bar,m14,fal,hk91,sten,m3,ak,ar,uzi,saiga 12

probably have to do some kind of hk roller lock as to not have a gas system

every replacement barrel will come with a bolt face that locks to the bolt in some manner
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Old 03-06-2011, 7:40 AM
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Do your research, just about anything you can think of has been done including quick change barrels like the HK 21 style, savage barrel nut etc. Almost all custom stuff is done on Remy / Mauser type actions.... no need to reinvent the wheel. If you really want to come up with something new and groundbreaking
your going to have to know what not to do.
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Old 03-12-2011, 9:44 AM
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I would like to be part of a "think tank".
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  #15  
Old 03-12-2011, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalMoose View Post
What would it be? My Dad and I are talking about starting our own company, he has years and years of precision manufacturing under his belt, we were watching "Sons of Guns" and he called them hacks. I challenged him to do it better. My mission would be to design something like the 700, very adaptable, affordable and easy to maintain. I would like to up the accuracy, improve the trigger, and smooth out the action out of the box.
Mine would be an M4 with a Marine attached. Oorah.
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Old 03-12-2011, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalMoose View Post
What would it be? My Dad and I are talking about starting our own company, he has years and years of precision manufacturing under his belt, we were watching "Sons of Guns" and he called them hacks. I challenged him to do it better. My mission would be to design something like the 700, very adaptable, affordable and easy to maintain. I would like to up the accuracy, improve the trigger, and smooth out the action out of the box.

What are some idiosyncrasies you don't like about certain rifles? How would you fix them? Am I completely out of my mind?

I had this big ole reply typed up but decided it would be a waste of bandwith to hit "reply".


So to keep it short and sweet, YES YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND. Put the remote down and step away from the TV.
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  #17  
Old 03-12-2011, 5:25 PM
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I love G.A. precision with their templar action and 3 lug bolt all trued up.
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  #18  
Old 03-13-2011, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
My .02.... For a start:

A 3-lug, 60-degree bolt lift bolt-action with integral 20moa picatinny rail that takes M700 triggers and drops into a M700 footprint, in stainless steel all for $500.
Couldnt be said any better. There are many custom actions to build on these days that have had a good reputation for a while that would be stiff competition. BUT....none of them offer a custom action in the $500 price range.
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Old 04-03-2011, 6:19 PM
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Default New Design!

Well, do you use bullets, particles, magnetic pulse, photons, etc? All are possible I believe the next gen will probably be bullets fired not by powder or having a casing but plasma charged weapons projecting a bullet down range at variable velocities. Simple instant range estimations computed would allow a predetermined calc(alg) to prescribe the amount of impulse required to penetrate at said distance. Also optics will be tied into the weapons system, If wanted, rifle would only fire at marked target allowing a more accurate shot to be taken. Particle weapons are pretty easy to make but just as the name states particles are just that particles very small and damage is minimal on people from a shoulder fired weapon. Magnetic pulse requires a ton of power to be effective and photons don't work on people from a shoulder fired weapon, ithe wound does not bleed effectively enough. I've messed around in my head lately about starting a new company and designing a couple of new ways to create a weapons system that is reliable, light, and lethal. Food for thought!
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Old 04-04-2011, 7:39 PM
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Default Think outside the box!

Bolt action is pretty easy to make. buy a mill and lathe and practice, practice, practice.
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Old 04-04-2011, 8:30 PM
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I see scout rifles as a great place to get into the rifle action. .308, takes MIA or FAL mags, 20moa scout mount integral with receiver that extends over quick change barrel system that brings any caliber with identical bolt face to .308

Bedded action to stock. Free floated 20" barrels. Synthetic stocks in Monte Carlo, thumb hole, Macmillion, HS precision, choate etc configs.

Three lug blueprinted bolt (a la Mauser) to receiver fit.

Barrel twist set up for 168gr BTHP.

I'm sure there is more. Best of luck.
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Old 05-15-2011, 5:51 PM
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Take a look at the Desert Tactical Arms. There are some folks who are thinking "outside the box"....short, accurate, magazine fed, quick change barrels. Figure out a way reduce the bulk in the butt-stock area, get away from the proprietary mags, build the 20 MOA cant into the top rail instead of the rings and...oh yeah, bring down the cost.

That would be my ultimate....
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Old 05-19-2011, 9:30 PM
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Give Mike a call at Tactical Operations. He pretty much sets the benchmark for all others to reach.

M700 is a great action and has been around for years. The 591 action from surgeon is great also. GAP makes a very sturdy Templar action that can take all sorts of abuse.

A 3 or 5 rifled cut barrel that has a twist rate of at least 2 complete rotations in the barrel length is also good. I.e. 1-11.25 twist barrel thats 24 inches long can help you reach out further.

The most expensive thing will be the tolerances and fitting of the parts. Something along the lines of wire EDM machines on a 10 or more foot thick foundation and anything else that can come into play to reduce vibrations that can effect machining processes in an effort to increase the uniformity of fitting parts down to the thousandths of an inch. Barrel fit to the action and the bolt is an area of importance as well. The closer the tolerances the better the performance.

The cost to purchase and operate these sort of machines demand a high overhead not to mention the stock materials that go into being machined has to be metalurgically sound as well. These 2 areas account for a lot of the cost. And it only goes up from there.

The more parts involved in the action can also effect certain aspects of the guns accuracy. Preston at Surgeon rifles reduced the number of parts by 3 in his 700 based action.

Most custom shop guns can get right around a quarter of an inch at a 100 yards which a lot of factory guns can do as well. The difference is in price between the two.

Its going to be hard to make a cheap gun that is perfect as far as accuracy, machining, adaptability goes. Something like what you have in mind commands a larger amount of cash.
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2012, 8:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bridgeport View Post
In a sense you are both right. They are hacks, and you are completely out of your mind. Quality costs, low cost comes at a price.
In another sense, the sons are not hacks but rather a type of small shop custom fabricator kind of like custom cycle maker types
but with a bit less panache. As far as making your own customs, I would suggest that if you have to ask the questions you are asking,
you probably want to gather some more hands on experience with the various receivers and rifles already on the market. I understand that you are asking exactly this, but it seriously requires hands on knowledge. For instance, the best rig on the bench will likely not be the best rig in tactical. Different uses, different needs, different tastes. Hope that helps. just out of curiosity, what area of manfacturing did your pop specialize in?
He does semi conductor stuff in the SF Bay.

Thanks for the input guys, sarcastic or not. I've started to get more hands on at his shop and kind of learning the ropes (I'm an Army medic by trade, thinking about making a career change though, but that's another conversation). I have been getting more and more hands on with different actions, and seeing what's worth keeping and what to do away with. I have access to a few different bridgeports, and as long as I don't interfere with production in the shop, I'm free to tinker.

So here's what I gather (my first project will be a bolt gun):
Ambidextrous
Ability to change Caliber relatively easily (probably isn't going to be practical)
Standard mags
Standard trigger assemblies
Low price
Will probably be a similar profile to the 700 to fit different stocks as well

I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel here, but it's more of a challenge, if it turns out to be functional/reasonable, maybe I'll try marketing it.
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Old 02-17-2012, 1:44 PM
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One thing a good friend and well respected speaker designer once told me about DIY projects: "Anyone who's smart can build a really nice pair of speakers, the hard part is building 500 exactly the same."

When you build a one off you can tinker with it and solve little problems. When you manufacture an action all the tinkering must be finished, and the tolerances must be tight enough during manufacturing that all the random drop in parts that will make your action sell actually drop in and function. Doing that once is easy. Doing it 500 times without any final hand fitting is very hard.

Look at this
http://competitionshootingstuff.com/
Does sort of what you are talking about but even he avoids building actions. You get all the customization you want and leave the hard part up to Remington.
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Old 03-03-2012, 7:33 PM
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The perfect rifle would have NO recoil.

Fire a round with almost flat trajectory.

That is all.
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