[ziege]

A friend of mine came to me the other day with a bit of a puzzler... it was one of those "hey you know about guns, what do I do about...."

Here's the story:
My (40ish year old) basically anti-gun ("guns are stupid") friend's father died a number of years ago (in '98 IIRC)... they handled all his affairs at that point and since then his mother has been living in their house. Well, a little while ago his mother (who is more anti-gun and especially anti-hunting than my friend) hired someone to replace a hot water heater or...well I'm not sure what work they were doing but the guy doing the work came to her and said "you know there are some guns tucked in here...."

Turns out there were a half dozen rifles (plus or minus) including a bolt action .22 youth rifle from the 1930s, a few varmint hunting rifles from the 50s and 60s, and a Ruger Mini-14. A few days later they found some handguns including a 30s era pistol and a couple of modern handguns (including an S&W model 19). My friend recognizes some of the older guns as having belonged to his father from when he lived in Wyoming in the early 60s. He remembers his father buying the model 19 in the late 70s after a burglary, but he "thought dad sold that before he died." He isn't sure about others... he has never seen and knows nothing about the mini 14 and a few of the other guns. Wife and kids are very anti-hunting... but quite a few of the guns are hunting rifles.

My friend suspects that some of the guns were in the house when they bought it because he doesn't recognize them and he thinks the "last gun" his dad bought was the S&W in 1978. At least one handgun wasn't manufactured until the 1980s. Apparently the family "found" guns stashed in the attic of the previous house they bought, which is why they think some of them may have been in the house when they bought it. Personally, I think that was his dad's way of getting guns into the house past his anti-gun wife.... but I never met him and have no way of knowing.

My friend's mom wants to get rid of them. My friend's brother wants to get rid of them. My friend (perhaps because of my influence) thinks they should hold on to at least some for personal defense, but isn't committed to the idea. I want to make sure that none of them get into trouble. I'd actually like to buy some of them from the family if possible... but mostly I'd like to make sure my friend and his family don't end up facing criminal charges or losing the guns through simple ignorance. And make sure they don't get taken to the cleaners if they go to sell them. I've been in gun stores when widows brought their husband's guns in and seen them get $0.10 on the dollar for them.

So, what's the proper way of dealing with this? The guns have been stashed in the house for years, their most likely last owner dead for 8 years. I guarantee none of the family has a HSC or anything else...but did they need one at the time they "received" them? Obviously today there is a $19/gun DOJ fee for telling the state who owns the guns, but does that apply in this case?

If I wanted to buy the handguns (or less-than-50yo long guns) from them, as far as I know we just go to a gun shop and do a person-to-person transfer...I have the HSC and shouldn't have a problem... are there any ways they (or I) can get into trouble doing this?

Thanks for any advice!

[elsolo]

Unless the guns are stolen property, they are the property of whomever is the executor of the estate of the deceased.

They do not need to be on the CA-DOJ approved list, even if they are out of state and your friend wants to bring them back to CA. Direct family transfers are exempt from that requirement.

Since 90% of gunowners I know hide from their wifes how many guns they have, when they got them, and which ones they are going to get soon; I bet those were all the deceased father's and none were ever "just found when we moved in". So the anti-gun mom and son didn't know his complete firearms inventory, what a shocker! None of my relatives have any idea what's in my gun colelction, they have seen some of them but certainly not all.

[metalhead357]

Originally Posted by elsolo

Unless the guns are stolen property, they are the property of whomever is the executor of the estate of the deceased.

yep. Good call but 'lest anyone forget there IS a DOJ form to fill out within 30 days of obtaining a firearm from a family member.... available off the FAQ page under "public questions"..............

[ziege]

They're all in California... in my friend's mother's house in Orange County. As far as I know most were brought into the state in the 1960s and the rest were purchased in California. Nobody (living) knows where some of the guns came from... as such, there is no way to say whether they are listed as stolen, but I'd bet they were all purchased by my friend's dad. It is sort of causing "family image re-evaluation" ... they don't want to face the fact that some of the rifles are hunting rifles. The mom is very anti-hunting and my friend's advice was, "Unless you want them all destroyed, don't even hint at the possibility they'll ever be used for hunting around her. She can understand defending yourself in a riot or something but hates hunting." I'm trying to school myself to refer to a .222 varmint rifle as a "target rifle". Sigh.

It is all funny in a scary way. They apparently removed the bolt from one of the rifles (from what I can tell a lee enfield that was sporterized by some now-dead company in the late 40s) and couldn't figure out how to put it back together...which is good as far as I'm concerned. I've been making myself a bit of a preacher with safety messages, including going over the various legalities of storage and transportation, asking them to remove, pack, and hide any ammo that may have gone with the guns, and so on. I have no idea whether any of my words have sunk in. I'm thinking not... but at least I've given the advice.

I did some research and have a good idea of the values. A good enough idea that they won't be taken to the cleaners if they sell them. I'm a soon-to-be C&R (submitted the paperwork a couple weeks ago... waiting for the reply now) and researching the values was rather fun actually. I'm interested in several of them, but we'll see how that goes. I gave my friend a list of the values, told him to cross check the values however he wants to, and that I'd be happy to buy all or part of the collection though perhaps not at market value in some cases.

I guess what I'm more worried about was them not having fulfilled some legal obligation in a timely fashion. I know a personal firearms importer has 60 days to file the paperwork on handguns when they move into the state. Well, they have that now but when did that requirement start? One of the guns is a High Standard .22 pistol. If my friend has his family history straight, it would've come into California in '62 or so. I don't know when the requirement to file an "ownership report" or equivalent came into being, but as I understand the laws having an unreported handgun is bad. I don't know what sort of legal limbo they've been floating in since the father died, but I want to make sure they take the right steps (if there are right steps, or any steps) to stay legit all through the process.

Remember, I'm dealing with some totally ignorant people... as in a few days ago they would've thought nothing of tossing everything in the back seat of their car and driving off to a gun store... I want to give them good advice without being totally over the top about it, and what I know about is buying guns today, not finding a deceased family member's collection.

[metalhead357]

You can always show her and the family this thread!

As I understand it- the executor can dispose of the weapons (NO AW's) any way he/she feels is best so long as its in line with the wants of the deceased. Absent those wants specified- executor can do with them as he/she wants.

THAT said....ask the executor to have them transferred to you through a FFL and deal with soley through you. None of the family nonsense to worry about.....

Could also offer them a lump sum of anywhere between $100- $400 per gun............just be fair dude If this guy was into hunting/shooting even against his family's knowlege then YOU carry out his 'expected' wants for them...

I dont think too many would disagree with me when I say- short of a family member wanting them and NOT destroying them...he'd want them to go to someone who will appreciate them, use them, and not do anything foolish with them.

If that's you. Step up man! Just be respectful of the family's wishes. If they ultimately say no.....gotta live with it.

[elsolo]

If I was interested in some of them, I would just make a blanket offer to rid them of this huge hassle they found.
"$400 for 6 guns and I'll pay the related transfer fees"

They could probubly get a couple hundred more if they were interested in researching values, listing them for sale or finding a consignment dealer that's fair, spending all the necessary time to deal with the sales, etc.

The difference in what a knowledgeable seller that is in no hurry could sell them for compared to a lump sum purchase right now is the cost of convenience for them.

Would they rather have to deal with this gun mess for a few months to try and get a couple hundred bucks they didn't know was coming; or just have this ordeal overwith and hav some cash in pocket?

[rkt88edmo]

I would second what elsolo said. If you have the time and money, make them a blanket offer and just take them all off their hands. If they are anti-gun then they probably won't want them anyways. If you intend to sell them and don't want to feel like you "cheated" your friend, then just make a deal to remit a certain percentage of the sale price, less fees, and give them the rest of the cash down the road when the deals are done.

I helped "estate sale" some guns for a person with no firearms knowledge, it can actually take up quite a bit of your time arranging the transfers and can be a PITA, so unless you are ready to put in a lot of charitable time, I would not act as a third party.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ziege

... .... I don't know when the requirement to file an "ownership report" or equivalent came into being, but as I understand the laws having an unreported handgun is bad. I don't know what sort of legal limbo they've been floating in since the father died,.....

The law requiring notification of transfer took effect in 1998. In CA, without any will, all of the fathers firearms would belong to his wife at that time. If any handguns were left for the kid, then when he takes possession of the firearm, he would have 30 days (maybe it is 60) to notify the DOJ, again for handguns only. The long guns can be tranferred to the kid without any paperwork required.

[AJD]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The law requiring notification of transfer took effect in 1998. In CA, without any will, all of the fathers firearms would belong to his wife at that time. If any handguns were left for the kid, then when he takes possession of the firearm, he would have 30 days (maybe it is 60) to notify the DOJ, again for handguns only. The long guns can be tranferred to the kid without any paperwork required.

If a father gave his handguns to his son before 1998 and he never notified the DOJ, then that's technically o.k. under the law. Or am I wrong? The only thing is how can the son prove that he gave them to him prior to that date? Is the burden on the state of CA to prove you didn't acquire the handguns prior to 1998?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by AJD

If a father gave his handguns to his son before 1998 and he never notified the DOJ, then that's technically o.k. under the law. Or am I wrong? The only thing is how can the son prove that he gave them to him prior to that date? Is the burden on the state of CA to prove you didn't acquire the handguns prior to 1998?

You are correct.

The burden is on the state of CA to prove the deceased father didn't gift the guns to his son xmas of '97....there is no proof required on the families part other than their word.

[AJD]

I thought that might be the way it works, but I was never really sure though. Thanks for your post Hunter!

[ziege]

Postscript:

I offered them a blanket $1500 for everything or individual prices if they wanted to keep some and sell others. Actually I gave them a printout with photos and the prices I had researched, along with what I'd pay. I tallied it up to about $2200 "gunsamerica" value for everything. They decided to keep a few of them "just in case", so I followed up with a $1000 offer for everything they weren't going to keep. I basically said "you can sell them for more than I'm offering if you take the time to list them, deal with buyers, and so on... but this is what I'm willing to pay for what I've seen. A dealer will give you a lot less."

So far so good, except one of them decided to see what a gun store would offer ... a cross check, so to speak. So he loaded up the $1000 worth of guns... took them to a store... and the store talked him into selling them for about $300.

... not even sure what emoticon to use in this case.....

When I found out the next day I asked him, "why would you take $300 from them when I told you they would lowball the prices, I made that price sheet for you specifically so they couldn't lowball the prices, and anyway I'd already offered $1000?"

The answer? "You said this gun was was worth $250, but the guy offered me $70 and said he could maybe sell it for $125. I figured you were probably wrong about all the values." ...banging head against keyboard... "Even if I was wrong, why would it matter? I was willing to hand you $1000 cash...why would you care if I was paying you too much?" "uhhh..." "They lowballed you."

So they cleaned him out... a mini14 that looked like it had never even been loaded, a 22 semi auto rifle, two hunting rifles that actually looked really good w/ bright bore and no real problems, a C&R 22 pistol, and a few other things. The brothers paid stupid tax...big time... and I had some potentially interesting stuff slip through my fingers because of it. Just goes to show you can't teach some people anything I guess. I suppose I should've stood there on day one with $1000 and forced them to sell them all to me right then and there but that probably wouldn't have worked either. Sigh. The part that has me scratching my head is that they saved off the no-longer-so-junior Remington 22 and gave it to me saying "this was dad's, from what we can tell he got it at 8 or so and kept using it until he was an adult, adding wood to the end of the thingie here [meaning buttstock]; you'll probably appreciate it and take better care of it than anyone else so we'd like you to have it...." Now, I do think it is cool... and I would've paid $40 for it without feeling bad either way... but it's kinda weird that they would just give that to me as a gift but sell everything else for 1/3rd of what I offered. Weird... appreciated but weird.

[metalhead357]

OUCH......
That's just sad............

Seems Pops had the sense to raise kids and own guns; tis a shame he forgot to teach them kids math And what's what with that FFL? Now maybe some know now while I harp on sooooooo many of them..... that's just wrong on sooooooo many levels.

[psssniper]

What store was it?

[ziege]

I know the store, but I'm not even going to say... mainly because it isn't just one store that does that sort of thing. It isn't even one type of store. Years ago I watched someone at a camera shop make the "generous offer" of $75 for a "probably no good but we'll take the risk" old Leica with several lenses and some nice looking accessories (maybe $1500 worth of gear assuming the camera had to be completely rebuilt) and the poor fool (who had to have had no idea what they were selling) took the $75. At the time if I'd had money in my pocket I'd have started a bidding war, but I was totally broke so I just walked out.

What would the phrase be.... Caveat Vendor? Let the seller beware...

I'm pretty bummed about it and I don't think they are going to live their sale down any time soon. Or maybe I'm just going to try my best to forget about the whole thing and be happy with my 22.

Actually, I'm going to try to educate my friend about the responsibilities involved in keeping what he kept (I went over there yesterday with some locks, a locking case, and so on so he can store and transport everything safely) and hopefully get him interested in going shooting from time to time... it's kinda silly to be bitter about not getting something I never had anyway and an active shooter is better than someone with daddy's gun in the attic or under the bed.

... next subject... this one's depressing me....