[vg247]

My brother's home in SAN JOSE, CA was burglarized today and he had called the police, they did a thorough report and cleared the house..As he is a legal gun owner who registered his CAR-15 rifle in 2000 when they asked if he had any weapons he told he did. It was locked in a case and unloaded- what upsets me was that my brother told me the cops spent more time questioning the gun than the home being broken into after the saw it's appearance collapsible stock, emptied AR mags,etc.

The officer said it was procedure to run the serial number and my brother had no problems as it was legally owned and registered. After two hours of being on the phone with the DOJ, ATF he came back and said there were no records for the gun and as a result they had to bring in into their "ASSAULTS" unit to look into.

**My bro's concern's- he clearly registered and what if the system is screwed up that they can't find the record. Was this legal for the cops to do although they were called there for a burglary?? What if the cop just keeps the gun and never turns it in, as my brother asked for something in writing that he took possession of it and he insisted that it will just go on the case report with the home burglary(so when calling them just use that case #). LAstly what if the police do find a legal record for the gun but they just want one less firearm on the street and come back saying "because there are no records" they will keep it?? Please advise on proper legal actions and what to do ...thank you all for your help.

[bwiese]

Does he have his AW registration paperwork? He should keep original in safety deposit box and copies in safe, car, truck...

DOJ recordkeeping on AWs may have flaws in recorded serial numbers and makes/models - some brands are 'translated' into others. Sometimes serial numbers got trucated, or the owner submitted the serial number but not , say, an alphanumeric prefix.

San Jose PD doesn't have a great record with knowning what is & isn't an assault weapon.

[I assume the reg means the 2000 AW reg, and not the 4473/DROS when he bought it in 1999 or earlier?]

[Rob454]

Since he let them in and showed them the weapon there is no real wrongful search and seisure. He needs to find his paperwork. Personally I wouldnt tell the cops jack S**T except what had to do with the burglary.
Rob

This backs up what Bill quoted a while back that most "assault" weapon encounters occur when cops enter homes, not on traffic stops.

This raises an interesting question. What do you say to the police when they have entered your house with your permission to clear it after a burglary and they start asking about weapons? Are you within your rights to refuse to answer such a question and withdraw your permission from them to be there? Or are you obliged to show them your guns?

[vg247]

Hello- thanks for the response...I had asked my brother and he didn't seem to be able to find the AW registration at the moment when the police were there.

Yes the registration was for the AW one, and indeed they police were clueless they didn't know anything about the firearms laws or highcap mag laws..just that their eyes widen I was told when the saw the CAR-15.

We are just assuming worst case scenarios and want to know if this procedure was legally carried out by the police or what legal actions to take since the officer did not leave my brother anything confirming his receipt/taking the firearm.

Even when my brother asked if he could keep the mags, so there would be less chance of them losing more items, the officer insisted they kept the mags as well...

Thanks again, any suggestions and attorney referrals are very much appreciated

[JPglee1]

Originally Posted by vg247

the officer insisted they kept the mags as well...

He says "Thanks" he needed more for his issue rifle


Good luck getting non serial-ized magazines back...


J

No receipt! I think it is time to get a lawyer now. It makes me sick to think that if the cops do search my house they might confiscate my standard cap mags. Perhaps my SU16 and M1A will look evil to them and they will grab them too.

I'm very sorry to hear about what happened here. I hope the only good side is that this thread can reveal what to do to stop the cops from seeing your guns and what to do if they take them.

Your brother should put a sign up in-front of his house. "Robbed twice today. Once by unknown individuals. Once by the PD"

[KenpoProfessor]

Well, we all knew it could happen, and it did, love that abuse under color of authority.

Tell your brother good luck getting them back but if he wants it back, he better find the paperwork, and even then, snowball's chance in Hades. Hopefully you'll find a good attorney but they will cost as much as the gun and mags are worth.

At least inform him he can still buy an OLL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[JPglee1]

Originally Posted by ca_brit_05

I hope the only good side is that this thread can reveal what to do to stop the cops from seeing your guns and what to do if they take them.

Probably the best thing to do is don't have them in your house, if you're burgled for a TV or something, write it off as a life tax... You won't see it again anyway and you'll just waste the cops time and invite such antics to possibly happen.

I got robbed at gun point once and the cops spent the whole time trying to "trip me up" and get me to change my story, I got interviewed about 10x in 2 days over and over and nothing ever came of it, except making ME feel like the crook. They were sure it was some kinda street deal gone bad or something, when in reality it was some random with a gun that got one over on me (I opened the door like a maroon without looking first...DOH)


J

[xenophobe]

AW registration is the process of sending a form with a check to the DOJ and receiving a confirmation letter. If your brother never received a confirmation letter from the DOJ with an Assault Weapon Registration Number and the particular firearm listed, then it may not be registered, even if the paperwork was sent in before the deadline.

Your brother would need to CALL the DOJ on the phone, ask if they have his records and check if they've been processed, or if they are still being held because of a discrepancy on the forms.

Many people's registration paperwork that was either not complete or had info that was missing or subject to DOJ confusion was put in a box and set aside. These registration documents were never entered into the computer, waiting for the owner to contact them to correct any mistakes that might be on them.

Once he takes care of this, if they find his paperwork was submitted before the deadline, they will issue an Assault Weapon Registration Confirmation letter. Then he will take the AW confirmation letter to the police, and they will release the firearm, as long as there isn't any other charges pending.

IF your brother mistakenly thought that filling out paperwork at a gun shop was "registration" he will most likely need to prove that he purchased the firearm before the ban. If he does not, then he may face felony charges.

That is how it works with DOJ and in Santa Clara County.

If your brother needs a contact number for AW Registration at DOJ, PM me and I'll give you that number to call to straighten out any paperwork, if he did indeed send his registration in.

[vg247]

Thanks for all your responses- I have confirmed with my brother and yes it for the AW registration, I have advised him to contact the DOJ in hopes of straightening things out--the police did call DOJ and the police told him the DOJ had nothing on file.

Funny thing is that he told me a sheriff had stopped him and ran the gun before and there was no problem approx 2 years ago.

[vg247]

btw- my bro did mention that he was able to find the original sales receipt to show the police and yet still...

[xenophobe]

The original sales receipt would just turn the wobbler (felony or misdemeanor possession) to the lesser crime.

What he needs is his AW Registration Confirmation letter. I find it a bit odd that he would have the original receipt, but not his AW Reg papers...

[bwiese]

If you need a lawyer familar w/AW law and SJ processes, contact law offices of Donald J. Kilmer - on Lincoln Ave in SJ. He's in the phone book.

[dwtt]

Wow, AB2728 is looking a lot worse now, isn't it?
If your brother bought the CAR-15 from a dealer, then there's no disputing he bought it since the ATF can find this out in about an hour. Don't ask me how I know. As for registration, the DOJ might or might not have a record of your brother registering the rifle, but I suspect SJ PD is no better tha SFPD and the cops didn't even call the DOJ and wanted to confiscate the rifle. It's now up to your brother to prove he didn't violate the law, which isn't how the system is supposed to work. What bothers me is that the cop wouldn't give any receipt or acknowledgement that the rifle is being confiscated. It would be wise to get the case report for the burglary and see if indeed the cop wrote down that the rifle was confiscated. If the report doesn't mention the rifle at all, get an attorney at that point and don't waste time with getting the DOJ's help. Just my opinion.

Edit: I just thought of a worse case. If your brother goes to the police station with his registration papers and asks for his rifle back, the cops might say "Rifle? What rifle?" . Would it be good insurance to bring a small hand held recorder to record the conversation?

[vg247]

thanks gents- good (temporary news)--my brother found his AW registration..now let's see what happens next. I did advise him to get legal help because it does seem scary the cop refused to give receipt for taking the gun into possession..

Will keep you posted..and feel free to shoot any further advice..Thanks

[blacklisted]

Originally Posted by vg247

thanks gents- good (temporary news)--my brother found his AW registration..now let's see what happens next. I did advise him to get legal help because it does seem scary the cop refused to give receipt for taking the gun into possession..

Will keep you posted..and feel free to shoot any further advice..Thanks

If I was in this situation, and if they did not give it back after seeing the registration confirmation, then I would assume that they are trying to steal the rifle (and mags). He should hire an attorney immediately. It would be unfortunate if the rifle got "lost in the system" because the officers involved did not give him a receipt.

Hopefully, things will work out and he will get it back when they see the registration.

[artherd]

Your brother needs to hire an attorney right now, I recommend Donald Kilmer (he's local, pro 2a big time, in the phone book.) Or Trutanich-Michel, LLP in LA. Ask for Jason or Chuck.

Siezure of your property without a property recipt, on the spot, is probably theft. You may have a cause fo action against the department.

[ibbryn]

In this situation when a police office asks if there are any weapons in the house after a burglery, does anyone object to someone respoinding, "Yes, all legally owned. I've confirmed they are still secure" and not discussing the guns that weren't stolen anymore?

Do you have an obligation to tell the police what guns you own when they come into your house? What about if they were there to investigate you? Can't you just say that subject is not relevant and you don't want to discuss it? If they insist, that they should speak to your lawyer?

Originally Posted by ibbryn

In this situation when a police office asks if there are any weapons in the house after a burglery, does anyone object to someone respoinding, "Yes, all legally owned. I've confirmed they are still secure" and not discussing the guns that weren't stolen anymore?

I would assume that unless they are out in plain sight you are under no obligation to go and get them out of the safe and show them to the officer.

I'm moving from a propolice perspective to one where I do not trust the them and will not intereact with them without a lawyer present. I wonder how many other gun owners are moving that way.

[Fjold]

Make copies of the original receipt and the AW registration and use that to deal with the police.

Never give the originals to the police.

[kantstudien]

"Do you have any weapons in the house?"

"Nope"



I would guess that the PD ran the serial number wrong. That puts your brother in a world of poo.

Originally Posted by kantstudien

"Do you have any weapons in the house?"
"Nope"

There is a big difference between lying and refusing to comment. Just like Israel and the possession of nuclear weapons.

Do you have weapons in the house.
No comment.

[50 Freak]

That's why I keep my AW's in a safe. If my house is burgarlized, I'd doubt they could get through my safe in enough time before the neighbors called the cops. And if they tried carrying it out....Good luck......

Either way, if I invite the LE's into the house to take a report after the burglary, if asked if there were guns in the house, I'd say yes. If asked to see the guns, I'd say no...."they are perfectly fine in my safe as it was not touched"....If they insist....Time to tell them to get out and get a warrant....And a phone call to their Captain and the Mayor will follow very quickly.

[blacklisted]

Originally Posted by ca_brit_05

There is a big difference between lying and refusing to comment. Just like Israel and the possession of nuclear weapons.

Do you have weapons in the house.
No comment.

Officer: Sir, do you have any weapons in your house?

Person: Why yes, officer. I have 24 sharpened knives in my kitchen, of which 6 are serrated. I have two baseball bats, one aluminum and one wood. I have eight dozen pencils, five boxcutters, a package of 40 replacement blades, and in my recycle bin I have 20 glass bottles that could be broken and used as weapons. In addition to these potential weapons, I have ...

Officer: sir, do you have any...

Person: three prybars, an electric carving knife, a chainsaw, three shovels, a pick, four hammers, two hatchets, three pairs of scissors, nailclippers...

Officer: DO YOU HAVE ANY GUNS IN THE HOUSE?

Person: If you wanted to know if I had any guns, why didn't you just ask? Yes, I have some guns. None of them are illegal, and they are all accounted for and secured in a safe. I'm afraid you will have to get a warrant if you want to inspect the contents of my safe, because I do not feel like opening it right now, nor would inspecting the firearms I own be relevant to your burglary investigation.

[rorschach]

No law says you gotta tell the cops the truth. You can lie to them all you want. If they are so inclined, they can charge you with interfering with an investigation, but I dont see how telling them there are no guns in the house would interfere with a burglary investigation, unless maybe the burglars MO is to hit people he knows to be gun owners, but that would be suicide on the part of the burglar. Criminals prefer unarmed victims.

Lying to a federal officer on the other hand....

[artherd]

Often times, (for instance, in any lawful vehicle stop) ONCE YOU TELL THEM YOU HAVE A GUN, a police officer MAY inspect the gun for compliance with safe storage requirements.

Generally, you also may not lie to officers. (degrees vary.)

The only option left is to refuse to comment. A 5th ammendment refusal to comment is not probable cause or reasonable suspicion for any search!

[hoffmang]

The best answer for a question that you don't wish to answer is another question.

"Do you have any weapons in the house?"

"Officer, why is that relevant to my missing television?"

-Gene

[artherd]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

The best answer for a question that you don't wish to answer is another question.

"Do you have any weapons in the house?"

"Officer, why is that relevant to my missing television?"

-Gene

Very good.

[Rumpled]

As far as getting the rifle returned, (if SJPD admits to having it and it is all reg's) SJPD will now have to charge you $ to return your lawfully owned weapon. I understand LASD is charging $70 per firearm. As far as I know, there is no limit as in PPT charges.

[blacklisted]

Originally Posted by Rumpled

As far as getting the rifle returned, (if SJPD admits to having it and it is all reg's) SJPD will now have to charge you $ to return your lawfully owned weapon. I understand LASD is charging $70 per firearm. As far as I know, there is no limit as in PPT charges.

He could probably submit a LEGR, which is only 20 dollars (I think).

[blackrazor]

Why anyone would ever speak to the cops without a lawyer is beyond me. The moral here is, know your enemy... let this be a lesson to you all.

[Rogerbutthead]

Keep your weapons in your safes. Just say no if they want you to open your safe(s).

A good attorney will ask for a retainer of several thousand dollars. If you have to fight to get the weapon(s) back, you can imagine that the cost will probably be greater than the value of the weapons that they "confiscate".

Be sure of what your insurance covers. I raised my insurance limits to cover my weapon collection - like 15 years ago. Years afterwards, they changed the rules to limit coverage to $1,000 in weapons total. I don't remember them telling me that. Also, if you file a claim against them, you can pretty much be sure that they will raise your rates. Mine are now double what they were before.

If the burglar left many items of value, you can be pretty sure he will come back. If you get an alarm system, be prepared for false alarms in the months (years) to come.

I hate burglars, they leave you with a sense of violation that, for me, has not left yet.

[faterikcartman]

This is why I'm glad they charged me $25 to register my .50's because even though I don't have proof it is registered (your originals mean jack squat if they say they have no record of it--it just proves you filled out that form at some unknown point in time), but I'll have proof they cashed my check.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by faterikcartman

This is why I'm glad they charged me $25 to register my .50's because even though I don't have proof it is registered (your originals mean jack squat if they say they have no record of it--it just proves you filled out that form at some unknown point in time), but I'll have proof they cashed my check.

You need to contact the DOJ.

They got those registered letters out quickly...

You also shouldn't talk about this in public.

[Rob454]

Originally Posted by Rogerbutthead

If you get an alarm system, be prepared for false alarms in the months (years) to come.

Thats BS. I have a alarm system and it only went off 3x in the 10 years I had it. It was because of two kittens my wife brought home and I forgot about them. I also install alarm systems and fire life safety. If its a good alarm system ( not some radio shack system) it will be fine for a long time. The ONLY time you get false alarms is when you have loose window frames or doors, or the wiring is being chewed by rodents or the motion detectors are set too sensitive or you have lots of moving plants due to air current ( IE leaving your ac on.

Rob

[nosewitdot]

any updates on the situation? i know he found the papers? did the cops give the rifle back?

[Rogerbutthead]

In the past 9 months that I have had my alarm system, It has gone off once (at 1:30AM) scaring the crap out of me (some sort of failure of a sensor) and my neighbors have called me from work once - must have been a car alarm that they thought was my house. Still had to check it out - go home from work - even though the alarm company said nothing was going off - can't ignore my neighbors being watchful for me.

So my two examples (and I know that only one was the fault of the alarm system) in 9 months to me - was more than I expected.

I hope I only have 3 false alarms in ten years.

[faterikcartman]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

You need to contact the DOJ.

They got those registered letters out quickly...

You also shouldn't talk about this in public.

??? I have no idea what you mean.

I have copies of my originals. I'm just giving you my opinion that your originals don't mean anything if the DOJ says they never got them. I sent mine overnight so I have a tracking number as well and the cancelled check will be the best proof as what are they going to tell the judge, they cashed my check for a donation?

When registering the .50's they charged money and I'm glad they did.

When we all registered AW's it was free and you could even do it through a fax machine. I read a lot of folks here talking about carrying copies of their registration papers and I'm just observing that if the DOJ "lost" your papers your copies wouldn't mean anything in court. That is because you could have filled them out the last night and back dated them.

If you are making a point I don't understand please elaborate or PM me because I'm certainly curious.

If you're saying the DOJ sent out registered confirmation letters after the .50 registration process well then those SOB's took my money and gave me the shaft!

[xenophobe]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

They got those registered letters out quickly...

I know many people who received their paperwork six months to a year later, as well as some who never received their paperwork at all. I've helped at least a dozen people who never received their paperwork to getting the ball rolling that got their confirmations up to 5 or 6 years later...

If you still haven't gotten your confirmation letter and did send in your application before the deadline, that just means they never processed your forms. That means there is a problem that needs to be corrected, that they couldn't handle themselves. Your application will be stored in a file until you contact them to find out what the problem is and correct it. After the problem is fixed, a confirmation letter will be sent.