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  #1  
Old 02-01-2011, 12:32 PM
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Default Saiga 12 Illegal in California?

I was just talking to a local gun shop here in northern california, "Shooters Paradise" , and was told by there sales men that and box fed shot guns are illegal in CA (the saiga 12). I then asked well isnt it legal as long as there is a BB present and he continued to still say there illegal.


Whats the word guys?


I felt like sayin well my mossberg 500 is box fed because my shells come in one ... but didnt wanna be a smart @$$!
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:34 PM
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if they are illegal with a mag-lock present, there are a lot of CA residents that are going to jail.

If it has a maglock, it doesn't have a detachable magazine, so at that point, you only have to worry about having the wrong combination of evil features.

Look at my shotgun flowchart for more info how it all works, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:35 PM
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That guy's ignorant. He should really check his facts.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:36 PM
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Saiga 12 is fine as long as it has a BB...
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:39 PM
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He said thats what he was updated on by DOJ ... He is kinda old though and maybe he just recieved the old ATF ban email.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:39 PM
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with that chart it looks like i cant run a tapco t-6 intrafuse stock
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:46 PM
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Is it just me, or does it seem that 90% of the FUD being spread around is from the "experts" who work at gun shops! I am tired of being fed the same crap over and over again from these guys. I get this a lot, and about different things, but always UNTRUE! How do these guys who work with guns and sell guns for a living stay out of jail with such a poor grasp of the laws. This is just a hobby for me, so I learn what I can in my spare time. If I did this for a living, I'd know my $#!+ because it would be my job!

(This is referring to SOME, NOT ALL gun shop "experts")
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PICKUPTECH22 View Post
He said thats what he was updated on by DOJ ... He is kinda old though and maybe he just recieved the old ATF ban email.
So he should be wise! If he is absent minded, then he should retire before he makes a mistake and ends up in trouble with the law. Age should have nothing to do with it.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:51 PM
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Another person misinformed..... dear lord....
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PICKUPTECH22 View Post
He said thats what he was updated on by DOJ ... He is kinda old though and maybe he just recieved the old ATF ban email.
ATF has NEVER banned S12s on a Federal level and they sure don't ban weapons on a state level. Ca DOJ may have sent something out which either he misunderstood or is just completely wrong. Either way, he is incorrect. The S12 is legal in Ca as long as it does not have a detachable magazine.
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:03 PM
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Thank all of u for ur input ... CGN rocks!
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:10 PM
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I believe what he meant when he said "illegal" was "we dont carry them, and I dont want to give you the idea to spend your money anywhere else".
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:14 PM
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damn FUDPACKERS!



what store was it ?

I would love to get them a call and educate them
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PICKUPTECH22 View Post
with that chart it looks like i cant run a tapco t-6 intrafuse stock
can't have both a pistol grip AND a collapsible stock. You can pick one or the other. So you can permanently pin the stock and be fine.
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
I believe what he meant when he said "illegal" was "we dont carry them, and I dont want to give you the idea to spend your money anywhere else".
unfortunately this is often true, easier to just scare the person by saying that it is illegal vs. explaining that they don't carry them, for whatever reason.
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Old 02-01-2011, 1:20 PM
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Sounds like that same FUD these Clowns in temecula say....
.Last Stand Gun Shop,
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  #17  
Old 02-01-2011, 2:35 PM
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SHOOTERS PARADISE IN YUBA CITY
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Old 02-01-2011, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cj cake View Post
Is it just me, or does it seem that 90% of the FUD being spread around is from the "experts" who work at gun shops!
More like 95%.

Generally speaking, if someone at a gun store tells you something about gun laws, you can be confident it's a load of crap.

It's very refreshing to see places like RifleGear, Straightline Tactical and others coming on line who challenge this hoary old truism.
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  #19  
Old 02-01-2011, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj cake View Post

Is it just me, or does it seem that 90% of the FUD being spread around is from the "experts" who work at gun shops! I am tired of being fed the same crap over and over again from these guys.
No it's not just you. That's the reason why i only shop at gun stores that know the california gun laws. I recently started going to Field time sports and I really like the place. So far everyone there has been very very helpful and nice. And its close by my house. its a far cry from the grumpiness i got at the Stockade and the FUD I got at Turners. When it comes time to get my wife a new 22 pistol Im gonna go to Field time.

As for all the other gun stores that like to spread their own version of california gun laws you will NEVER get my support. I refuse to shop for my guns and gun related stuff there or do a PPT or tell anyone I know to shop there. While I know I personally will not even make a dent in your profits, my money will never go to supporting your store. But believe me word of mouth spreads pretty quick.
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:59 AM
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It is always interesting when you read about your evil doings by those in "the know'

I would be the old senile fud speading lazy greedy ought to retire foolish need to be educated ( let me know if I missed anything ) FFl holder in question.

First of all I told the OP that detachable box fed shootguns are illegal as per:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: ......

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

As per MY DOJ inspector it is HIS understanding that the case law that has been applied to AR type rifles has yet to be tested in court.

As such, I have chosen not to import them until such time as the person who can shut down my operation believes that it does indeed apply to semiautomatic shotguns.

I have had many quality hours sitting with both ATF and DOJ going through each and every transaction between inspections.

I will look at you anonymous talking heads and giggle until you pony up the money, time and grief I go through to fight the anti gunners in this state and keep my shop open.

As to the OP do the research then come in and ask and understand the question that you are asking and carfully listen to the answer.
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  #21  
Old 07-27-2011, 1:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj cake View Post

Is it just me, or does it seem that 90% of the FUD being spread around is from the "experts" who work at gun shops! I am tired of being fed the same crap over and over again from these guys. I get this a lot, and about different things, but always UNTRUE! How do these guys who work with guns and sell guns for a living stay out of jail with such a poor grasp of the laws. This is just a hobby for me, so I learn what I can in my spare time. If I did this for a living, I'd know my $#!+ because it would be my job!

(This is referring to SOME, NOT ALL gun shop "experts")
Lots of ignorant dumbasses seem to work in gun shops. Most don't seem to be ignorant only about guns either...
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Old 07-27-2011, 5:56 AM
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As per MY DOJ inspector it is HIS understanding that the case law that has been applied to AR type rifles has yet to be tested in court.
It never will be tested in court. Your DoJ inspector's boss has already declared the bullet button a perfectly legal configuration in court documents filed just this year. Details are in the 2nd Amendment and Legal Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith View Post
As to the OP do the research then come in and ask and understand the question that you are asking and carfully listen to the answer.
The OP is doing the research on this board.

Instead of DoJ and ATF agents, you should probably be getting your advice from attorneys specializing in firearms law. Of course, the DoJ and ATF advice is free, and the attorneys' advice isn't. But I guess you get what you pay for.

There is also a difference between saying, "I do not believe that is a legal configuration and so I will not be carrying those shotguns in my shop," and "That is an illegal configuration and if you buy that shotgun from another dealer you will go to jail."

It certainly pays to be careful when you are in the business you are in. But you are throwing business away by not acquainting yourself with the legal realities. Right now the most successful FFLs in California are making good business (and in some cases avoiding going out of business) by selling black rifles. In Southern California even the largest and most conservative FFLs, Turners and Fowlers are doing it. It's definitely something every California FFL should take a closer look at.
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Old 07-27-2011, 6:11 AM
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SEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"What you've just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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Old 07-27-2011, 6:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith View Post
It is always interesting when you read about your evil doings by those in "the know'

I would be the old senile fud speading lazy greedy ought to retire foolish need to be educated ( let me know if I missed anything ) FFl holder in question.

First of all I told the OP that detachable box fed shootguns are illegal as per:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: ......

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

As per MY DOJ inspector it is HIS understanding that the case law that has been applied to AR type rifles has yet to be tested in court.

As such, I have chosen not to import them until such time as the person who can shut down my operation believes that it does indeed apply to semiautomatic shotguns.

I have had many quality hours sitting with both ATF and DOJ going through each and every transaction between inspections.

I will look at you anonymous talking heads and giggle until you pony up the money, time and grief I go through to fight the anti gunners in this state and keep my shop open.

As to the OP do the research then come in and ask and understand the question that you are asking and carfully listen to the answer.
I commend you for coming here and clarifying your position. I also do not blame you for using your freedom to run your bussiness how you see fit and only deal in firearms that you want to. However, I must point out that you are partially incorrect when you just say that "detachable box fed shootguns are illegal". You need to further clarify that by including the fact that you are ONLY refering to SEMI AUTO shotguns. There are millions of old bolt action shotguns with detachable box fed magazines and these are perfectly legal in CA period. While you did qoute the laws in your post. I don't see anywhere in your post or the OP's which would indicate that you made the whole "semi auto" thing clear to him. I would suggest being a little more careful about how you word things in the future. Otherwise, by the mere fact that you ommitted the fact that all detachable box fed mag shotguns are legal in Ca EXCEPT semi auto ones, you appear to not really know the law. (Obviously, you do since you qouted it here but, not in your initial conversation.)
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Old 07-27-2011, 6:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith View Post
It is always interesting when you read about your evil doings by those in "the know'

I would be the old senile fud speading lazy greedy ought to retire foolish need to be educated ( let me know if I missed anything ) FFl holder in question.

First of all I told the OP that detachable box fed shootguns are illegal as per:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: ......

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

As per MY DOJ inspector it is HIS understanding that the case law that has been applied to AR type rifles has yet to be tested in court.

As such, I have chosen not to import them until such time as the person who can shut down my operation believes that it does indeed apply to semiautomatic shotguns.

I have had many quality hours sitting with both ATF and DOJ going through each and every transaction between inspections.

I will look at you anonymous talking heads and giggle until you pony up the money, time and grief I go through to fight the anti gunners in this state and keep my shop open.

As to the OP do the research then come in and ask and understand the question that you are asking and carfully listen to the answer.
Who was your inspector? We went through our state audit after being licensed for less then a year. They told us that we had to keep the single shot exemption guns in that configuration the entire time they were in DROS. Then a week later they told another FFL the exact opposite of what we were told. So you need to remember they make it up as they go. What one guy says monday may change on wednesday. Know the law and if they tell you different tell them to call your lawyer. They are law enforcement, not law makers. If they enforce a law that doesn't exist then that is their opinion, their opinion means jack s**t. They have to have a reason to shut you down, you have to break a law, if not that is harassment under the color of authority. I don't think the state has that kind of money to start settling law suits. The DOJ is in enough hot water with their drug guys peddling the crap their supposed to get off the streets.
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Old 07-27-2011, 7:33 AM
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You guy's continue to make assumptions as you point out things that were discussed between the OP and I in my store. I see no need to to post a transcript of the conversation ( besides my transcriptionist was on break).

You guy's with the deep pockets come on up to my store and spot me a couple of hundred K so I can piss off my regional inspector so he can write me up for every little mistake and eventually close me down, then I can take BOF to court....oh wait... this is an academic exercise for you, I do it for a living.

Among your assumptions is that I don't do black rifles.... oops the entire wall behind me when I was talking to OP was covered in them.

All sarcasm aside guy's, I have an above average grasp of the law and the issues surrounding these rifles. More than one individual has reported to BOF that i am selling assault rifles. When the enforcement agents, along with the paperwork agents, were waiting in my parking lot for me to open so I didn't hide all my offending guns. They went home empty handed. Look, the OP came into my store and I obviously did not clarify my point of view to him. I apologize to HIM for that, but some of you lighten up a bit or your going to stroke out.
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Old 07-27-2011, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesa Tactical View Post
......

There is also a difference between saying, "I do not believe that is a legal configuration and so I will not be carrying those shotguns in my shop," and "That is an illegal configuration and if you buy that shotgun from another dealer you will go to jail.".........
Didn't say it...that was one of the arm chair FFL's stating that.
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Old 07-27-2011, 7:44 AM
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Funny how other owner operator shops without deep pockets don't need to spend 200K to sell legal firearms. Maybe a simple phone call to his supervisor would clear things up? Would that cost $200K? Again, I don't blame you for choosing not to sell certain firearms. In fact, I'm glad we live in a country where we have the freedom to choose how we conduct bussiness and I respect your right to do so. The fact that you are scared and intimidated by your auditor's lack of knowledge amazes me. It sounds like you don't want "any problems" and you are willing to give up certain freedoms under the guize of "safety". That's your choose but, it is also how socialism is taking over this country. Enjoy your rights while you have them. Hopefully, enough other people are willing to stand up and fight for your rights so you can keep them.

BTW, the only assumptions which I or anyone else has made here are based on what both you and the OP have stated here. If both of you correctly stated your position on all detachable box fed mag shotguns, you were clearly wrong. Not only are the bolt action shotguns legal here, there are also pump action shotguns with detachable box fed mags which are legal. If you and the OP ommitted the fact that you specifically stated only semi auto detachable mag shotguns are considered AWs (even AWs are not illegal if they are RAWs) then, yea, we are inncorrectly assuming things based on your ommitting the facts.
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Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 07-27-2011 at 7:51 AM..
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Old 07-27-2011, 7:53 AM
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damn FUDPACKERS!



what store was it ?

I would love to get them a call and educate them
Careful... 530-673-4100 Call me up and educate me on how you run your shop. Educate me on how you were able to extrapolate from the OP's question so much information that you feel that you can enlighten the subject being discussed.
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Old 07-27-2011, 8:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PICKUPTECH22 View Post
He said thats what he was updated on by DOJ ... He is kinda old though and maybe he just recieved the old ATF ban email.

...and my beard is turning gray and my hairline is receding
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Old 07-27-2011, 8:20 AM
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ok....sorry guy's I tried to walk past this bee's nest and not wack it with a stick....but it was just sitting there humming, peacefully... I know it a personality flaw...I'll stop now....LMAO
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Old 07-27-2011, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
can't have both a pistol grip AND a collapsible stock. You can pick one or the other. So you can permanently pin the stock and be fine.
i have a moss 500 with a knoxx telescoping stock and factory 8 shot tube, according to what i think your saying, about the pinned stock,the pistol grip and the adjustable stock makes mine illegal?? p.f.

Last edited by patrick fox; 07-27-2011 at 4:02 PM.. Reason: punct
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Old 07-27-2011, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by patrick fox View Post
i have a moss 500 with a knoxx telescoping stock and factory 8 shot tube, according to what i think your saying, about the pinned stock,the pistol grip and the adjustable stock makes mine illegal?? p.f.
Do you have a Mossberg 500 semi auto? I suggest reading California's AW laws instead of just blindly believing what you read on the internet. You're fine unless you have a one of a kind semi auto 500. If you do, please post pictures of it.
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Old 07-28-2011, 4:13 AM
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i have a moss 500 with a knoxx telescoping stock and factory 8 shot tube, according to what i think your saying, about the pinned stock,the pistol grip and the adjustable stock makes mine illegal?? p.f.
it only applies to SEMI AUTO shotguns. yours is a PUMP shotgun. You can do whatever you want to the damn thing nobody cares. IMO if the gun store owner does not want to sell order or deal with Saiga 12s or any other evil type of rifle thats his choice. After all he is FREE to do as he pleases. Either way sounds to me like the gun store owner did not elaborate but then again neither did the OP. just came here crying about another shop spreading FUD.
I swear sometimes Calgunners spread as much FUD about shops and how the people behind the counter are as the shops do about what is and is not legal in the state. The information is out there for anyone to get and see.
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Old 07-28-2011, 5:09 AM
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I've spent a lot of time and money at Shooters Paradise. I bought my first 3 OLL's there, all Doublestars, for a fairly reasonable price, back when it was Robert's place. That was in 06, right at the beginning of the OLL's becoming available if I remember right, end of 07 at the very latest. They're definitely not a shop that runs scared everytime DOJ pops their heads in the door. Lee is a pretty good guy and runs a good shop, with knowledgeable employees. Without having been there to hear the conversation, I'm thinking there was some minor miscommunication.

Lee, I'll swing by and use the range next time I'm in town, since it's the only indoor range I've ever been to that doesn't have the cable machine in the way of my head! (...quite a bit taller than the average guy out there, and the target return machines are generally at my shoulders and in the way)
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Old 07-28-2011, 5:13 AM
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I just bought a Krebs Custom Saiga 12 from a Bay Area gun store. It's in jail now



Can't wait to warm it up!
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Old 07-28-2011, 1:56 PM
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ok then, i thought my 500 pump was legal even with adj stock, , shoulda waited to post ??'s, till i saw a pic of the saga, woulda saw it was a semi auto instead of a pump,, thanx for the feed back, appreciate it!! shoot straight and shoot often!! .........
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Old 07-28-2011, 8:08 PM
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Thank god my only "box fed" shotgun is also bolt action! LOL


And I love it, when I out cycle my pump shotgun friends! Practice with what you have.


And yes I do that ,but the comment was sarcastic!
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:22 PM
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This weeks RiverCity Gun Exchange Ad in Sacramento: Saiga 12 for $799

http://findnsave.sacbee.com/Local-Ad...?adid=11412591
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Old 07-29-2011, 7:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee F. Smith View Post
...You guy's with the deep pockets come on up to my store and spot me a couple of hundred K so I can piss off my regional inspector so he can write me up for every little mistake and eventually close me down, then I can take BOF to court....oh wait... this is an academic exercise for you, I do it for a living...
You're not the only one. There are quite a few on this forum that do it. Shallow pockets and all.

...I have an above average grasp of the law and the issues surrounding these rifles...
Anything less than an above average grasp, and you shouldn't be dealing in black rifles. Just wait till you start selling the REALLY good stuff. It will be time for the advanced class.

...When the enforcement agents, along with the paperwork agents, were waiting in my parking lot for me to open so I didn't hide all my offending guns. They went home empty handed...
Again... you're not alone. DOJ raids are not uncommon when dealing with the good stuff. The better the stuff, the more DOJ heat you feel. It's part of the job.
Before you tell us all how hard it is, understand that what you're selling is a little on the tame side
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