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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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SB 124: 2011 DeLeon Ammunition Bill
Looks like California State Senator Kevin DeLeon was not sufficiently embarrassed when his ammo registration bill, AB 962, was struck down as unconstitutional in federal court. Clearly not having learned his lesson, he is now getting into a pissing match by introducing another ammo bill in SB 124. These anti-gunners in California just don't get it.
MAIN BILL PAGE: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/po...ss=CUR&house=B http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill...ntroduced.html INTRODUCED BY Senator De León JANUARY 26, 2011 An act to amend Sections 189, 12022.2, 16650, 16660, 30315, 30320, and 30325 of the Penal Code, relating to ammunition. LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST SB 124, as introduced, De León. Ammunition. Existing law, as amended by Proposition 115, adopted by the voters at the November 7, 1990, statewide general election provides that all murder which is perpetrated, among other means, by knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, is murder in the first degree. Proposition 115 may be amended by a bill passed by majority vote of the Legislature if that bill becomes operative upon approval of the voters. This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast that provision to provide that all murder which is perpetuated by knowing use of ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor is murder in the first degree. The bill would also provide that this provision is operative if approval by the voters and directs the Secretary of State to place this provision on the ballot of the next statewide election. Existing law provides that any person who, while armed with a firearm in the commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of 3, 4, or 10 years. This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast the above crime to be based on the immediate possession of ammunition for the firearm designed to penetrate metal or armor. The bill would further omit reference to ammunition primary designed for use in a rifle and instead define "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor" to mean ammunition, except a shotgun shell, capable of penetrating a body vest or body shield when discharged from a handgun. Existing law defines "handgun ammunition" to mean ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. Other provisions of existing law regulate the sale, transfer, delivery, and possession of handgun ammunition, and violations of certain of those provisions are crimes. This bill would delete the phrase "principally" from that definition, and recast the definition of handgun ammunition to mean ammunition for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. Existing law provides that "handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in a rifle, that is designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of 2 characteristics, one of which is that it is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. This bill would delete the word "primarily" and recast the above phrase to read "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor." Existing law provides that any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense, with specified penalties. This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions and recast those provisions to be based on knowingly possessing handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor. Existing law provides that any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or knowingly transports any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed $5,000, or by both that fine and imprisonment. This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions and recast those provisions to be based on handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor. Existing law authorizes the possession of handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor by a person who found the ammunition, if that person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition, and the person is transporting the ammunition to law enforcement for disposition. This bill would delete the word "primarily" from those provisions and recast those provisions to read handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor. By expanding the definition of "handgun ammunition" and the definition of "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor," this bill would expand the scope of certain crimes relating to the sale, transfer, delivery, and possession of handgun ammunition, and thereby impose a state-mandated local program. The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that reimbursement. This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this act for a specified reason. Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: yes. State-mandated local program: yes. THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS: SECTION 1. Section 189 of the Penal Code, as amended by Section 51 of Chapter 178 of the Statutes of 2010, is amended to read: 189. (a) All murder which is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or which is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under Section 206, 286, 288, 288a, or 289, or any murder which is perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. All other kinds of murders are of the second degree. As (b) As used in this section, "destructive device" means any destructive device as defined in Section 16460, and "explosive" means any explosive as defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code. As (c) As used in this section, "weapon of mass destruction" means any item defined in Section 11417. To (d) To prove the killing was "deliberate and premeditated," it shall not be necessary to prove the defendant maturely and meaningfully reflected upon the gravity of his or her act. SEC. 2. Section 12022.2 of the Penal Code, as amended by Section 14 of Chapter 256 of the Statutes of 2010, is amended to read: 12022.2. (a) Any person who, while armed with a firearm in the commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of three, four, or 10 years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of the sentence. (b) Any person who wears a body vest in the commission or attempted commission of a violent offense, as defined in subdivision (b) of Section 12021.1, shall, upon conviction of that felony or attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment prescribed for the felony or attempted felony of which he or she has been convicted, be punished by an additional term of one, two, or five years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of the sentence. (c) As used in this section, "body vest" means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma protection for the wearer. (d) This section shall become operative on January 1, 2012. SEC. 3. Section 16650 of the Penal Code is amended to read: 16650. (a) As used in this part, "handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. (b) As used in Section 30312 and in Article 3 (commencing with Section 30345) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4, "handgun ammunition" does not include either of the following: (1) Ammunition designed and intended to be used in an antique firearm. (2) Blanks. SEC. 4. Section 16660 of the Penal Code is amended to read: 16660. As used in this part, "handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in a rifle , that is designed primarily to penetrate capable of penetrating a body vest or body shield when discharged from a handgun , and has either of the following characteristics: (a) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely, excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density or hardness. (b) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. SEC. 5. Section 30315 of the Penal Code is amended to read: 30315. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison, or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. (more) Last edited by Librarian; 04-13-2011 at 7:46 PM.. |
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"Cop Killer" bullet ban
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SEC. 6. Section 30320 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
30320. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or knowingly transports any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. SEC. 7. Section 30325 of the Penal Code is amended to read: 30325. Nothing in this article shall apply to or affect the possession of handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor by a person who found the ammunition, if that person is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 30305, Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 29800) or Chapter 3 (commencing with Section 29900) of Division 9 of this title, or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, and the person is transporting the ammunition to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law. SEC. 8. Section 1 of this act shall only become operative if submitted to and adopted by the electors. The Secretary of State shall place Section 1 of this act on the ballot of the next statewide election. SEC. 9. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution. |
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Oh wait is this the same thing...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...n140415S80.DTL |
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Aaaand we have our second 'official' bill thread for 2011-2012.
Thanks, puppy. 16660 is new numbering for 12320. New numbering is used because the effective date of this bill would be the same date as the effective date of the new PC Dangerous Weapons renumbering. And I just read all the way through it: Quote:
__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 01-27-2011 at 3:19 PM.. |
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Now go write it 100 times on the chalkboard: "I am in the minority. Most of the state thinks I'm crazy." |
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Would be nice if Kevin would stop wasting his time (and taxpayer money) on stupid crap and start working on fixing our financial woes? One day this state will be so broke and the people so desperate that armor piercing ammo is going to be the least of our concerns.
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-POLICESTATE, In the name of the State, and of the School, and of the Infallible Science If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever. Government Official Lies . F r e e d o m . D i e s . |
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Note that the bill talks about rounds "designed to" penetrate armor or metal.
But I see no clarification of what, specifically, "designed to" means here. If it means "created specifically with the intent to ..." then I'd think this would be trivial to avoid. But if it really means "is capable of" then that would make this into a full-on ban (except for law enforcement, of course) of all ammunition except perhaps certain types of shotshell, since even the lowly .22LR is capable of penetrating metal.
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The Constitution is not "the Supreme Law of the Land, except in the face of contradicting law which has not yet been overturned by the courts". It is THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, PERIOD. You break your oath to uphold the Constitution if you don't refuse to enforce unadjudicated laws you believe are Unconstitutional. The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why. |
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Quote:
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__________________
ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_de_Le%C3%B3n
His current page now tells about AB962 ruled unconstitutional, however, he is introducing something similar.
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Need A Realtor in SoCal? Shoot me a PM. |
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I would think that the good people of Senate District 22 would rather have jobs, better roads, better schools, etc. than another extension of Mr. DeLeon's ego and personal causes. Perhaps CGF should help whoever runs against him. Think of it as taking baby aspirin to help prevent a heart attack...
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Isn't AP ammo already banned or something like that? So would this just be beating a dead rotting horse?
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USMC '05-'09 - 2111 - Keeper Of The Cold Steel To be American is to disobey. |
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If I'm reading the new proposal correctly, all he is doing is taking out the word "primarily" out of a law that was in place from 1990.
"designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" to "designed to penetrate metal or armor" To me, he has his head so far up his rear-end, he has actually done the opposite of what he intended. He wanted to broaden the coverage of the law, but to me, the way it reads now, it actually narrows the coverage of that law. "De Leon said that in his new bill, he had amended the language so that no future gun rights lawsuit could challenge the state's ban on armor-piercing bullets." If that's his way of amendments, let him amend all he wants. To me, all I see is a kid who got his butt chewed so bad, he just wants to do something to make himself happy. DeLeon: "Errgh, unconstitutionally vague! Hmph! I'll show 'em. I'll show 'em, yeah! I'll pass an amendment. See if they can say this one is unconstitutionally vague." |
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Looks to me like an end run around the handgun/rifle ammo question by defining ANY ammo used in a handgun as handgun ammo (certain amount of logic there...). Given the vest penetration characteristics of 7.62x39 and 223/5.56 ammo, it would seem certain that any variety of these ammo types would be classified as handgun ammunition and be completely banned - including possession: Quote:
Still confused about this part because it is talking about exempting ammo primarily designed for use in a rifle which contradicts with the part above that says any ammo fired from a handgun is handgun ammo. Quote:
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So far none of us have figured out exactly what this bill is supposed to accomplish. That in itself should indicate that it is unconstitutionally vague.
This could go both ways: A) It would be a felony to load marshmallows into primed .38 special cases and shoot at tin foil targets or b) Steel core 9mm ammo would be OK, so long as it was only designed and intended to be cheap Confused? Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford Last edited by SwissFluCase; 01-27-2011 at 9:05 PM.. Reason: Added another thought. |
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After reading it, seems to me its an attempt to cause as much ammunition as possible to be illegal. "penetrating metal" is vague, all metal? Does tinfoil count then? Even a 22LR FMJ will penetrate clean through a refrigerator with little problem, which is aluminum and/or thin sheet steel.
Cant we introduce an amendment that will force any politician to be ejected from their state seat/position if they attempt to introduce any legislation that is unconstitutional? Make it retroactive too so that we can have him dropped sooner. |
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Sen. De Leon on Fox News LA-SB124
State Senator De Leon was just interviewed on Fox News LA by Carlos Anescua. De Leon discussed AB962 without referring to it as AB962. Instead. he kept talking about 'Cop Killer' Bullets becoming available after a 29 year ban. This was his whole piece. No mention of ammo registration. He than went on to say the NRA went 'Judge Shopping' to get the injunction. Carlos Anescua pointed out that vague language was the reason for the injunction. De Leon went on to say he drafted AB124 to clarify what handgun ammunition is. Anescua asked if De Leon was going after 2A. De Leon says 2A adddresses firearms, not ammunition.
At the end, De Leon says ammunition is sold without control. Anyone fresh out of prison can buy all the ammo they want and we need to control the ammunition. LAPD Chief Charlie Beck appeared with De Leon and clearly supports De Leon's view. LASD Sheriff Lee Baca was also credited as supporting De Leon, as well as several other chiefs. Look out for SB124.
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God Did Not Create All Men Equal, Colonel Colt Did. |
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Crackpot that he may be....do not ignore Deleon. When he gets the main players in Southern California law enforcement on his team that is no small feat
The average voter who is neither gun savy nor a gun owner will automatically be convinced DeLeon is some sort of savior. The very sound of "cop killer bullets" just makes the anti's swoon. We can kavetch to each other all we want...but keep your eye on the prize and the very skillful political moves DeLeon is making. Me thinks he plays the bumbling legislator on purpose.
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Paul S “Cogito, ergo armatum sum: I think, therefore I am armed.” - Collection of Quotes - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman |
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I can only assume each type of ammo would have to be listed just like a handgun list in CA. otherwise it's still vague. A 18" shotgun can be concealed under a long coat. Will he try to say that next time?
Not all sheriffs are ignorant of politicians and do not fall for this kind of nonsense. Many sheriffs in CA do not like this ammo ban and they do not like the fact this does nothing regarding crime. This is a court fight and debate that will not end anytime soon. Game on CA gun owners! God Bless John Moses Browning..........Utah has it right. Last night MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell called John M. Browning, "The Merchant Of Death". O'Donnell tongue lashed Utah good for making the 1911 the state gun. O'Donnell conveniently forgets one of the only reason Mr. O'Donnell is able to have a nightly show is because John Browning invented a superior weapons system that was used in many wars to allow us our freedoms. God Bless the Browning 1911 and the Browning Automatic Rifle as well as many other exceptional firearms that gave the USA her freedoms we enjoy. |
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This is so vaguely written that it could ban all ammunition for firearms as well as ammunition used in various type of toy guns. It is very easy to penetrate metal such as an aluminum soda can or aluminum foil. Tinfoil hats are probably considered body armour now.
Last edited by ALSystems; 01-28-2011 at 6:14 AM.. |
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*AB962 tries to ban handgun ammo sales without various stupid restrictions *AB962 is overthrown due to unconstitutionally vague language about what constitutes "handgun ammo" *DeLeon says if the stock CA definition of handgun ammo is unconstitutionally vague in AB962, it's only a matter of time before We, The Boogeymen get a court ruling saying that definition is unconstitutionally vague, period. *This would make enforcement of other provisions, like the AP handgun ammo ban, dubious at best *DeLeon takes a strategic step back, decides to first "reinforce" the AP bans, and then once those are solidified he can reintroduce a AB962 with new (allegedly non-vague) wording As I see it, he's actually using his head, despite all the "lol dumazz" reactions. |
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All 5.56/.223 and 7.62x39 will penetrate ballistic vests, so IMO this law is an attempt to completely ban these calibers of ammo. Tim |
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Tim |
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__________________
"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool that follows him?"-Obi Wan Kenobi the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura |
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Rome is burning and DeLeon is playing his anti-gun fiddle.
Pretty ironic, a bankrupt state in which the legislators are spending time on feel good laws that will supposedly eradicate "cop killer" bullets. Forget jobs and the economy, let's do things that make us look good when we run for re-election. Anti-gun is job security for the likes of DeLeon. He'll never stop doing this. |
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It is time to mock the "cop killer bullets" line like we did with the "for the children" line. The one weapon that will end DeLeon's career is ridicule. No politician can withstand ridicule, and no politically charged phrase can withstand it either.
I think that is our best bet to nip DeLeon in the bud. DeLeon is certainly making it easy for us in this regard. Regards, SwissFluCase
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"We don't discuss the governor's arsenal in detail" - Brown spokeswoman Elizabeth Ashford |
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Using gun control to stop crime is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline! You don't have to get permission to exercise a RIGHT. If you have to get permission or can be told no by the government it is no longer a right. IT IS A PRIVILEGE! AR-15 ASSEMBLY CHECK LIST FOR BUILDERS |
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Is there anything we can do to prevent this from becoming law?
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If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of payments. Quote:
Ron Paul |
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Here you go.....if it's got a barrel under 16" it's it's considered "concealable"
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Satisfied? Under this definition even SBRs and SBSs would be onsidered concealable too.
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"Freedom begins with an act of defiance" Quote for the day: Quote:
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Had to google KTW ammunition to figure out what it was:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06dec.htm After some experimentation with steel rounds, the officers settled on a brass core with a 'lubricating' jacket of Teflon. Although a myth persists that the Teflon is there to either penetrate "bullet-proof" vests more effectively, or protect the bore of the firearm that fires it, Dr. Kopsch himself has testified that the Teflon actually reduces these bullets' penetration in Kevlar, and is only there to reduce the likelihood of ricochets. |
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Hopefully the DOJ or somebody who knows ammunition and firearms will read this over and have coffee with Brown or Harris and tell them it's totally wacked and no chance of going anywhere and a waste of $ and time when CA is in dire straits.
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There are .223 pistols. I guess there are 7.62x39 as well. I hope no one has a 308 handgun or I am well and truly screwed. I am not advocating for this, I am just guessing why he is doing it legally. |
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Yay, somebody else gets it! That said i don't think he needs to reintroduce a 962 clone if this passes: Quotes from the bill summary: "Existing law provides that any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense, with specified penalties." "By expanding the definition of "handgun ammunition" and the definition of "handgun ammunition designed to penetrate metal or armor," this bill would expand the scope of certain crimes relating to the sale, transfer, delivery, and possession of handgun ammunition, and thereby impose a state-mandated local program." IMO this bill will ban completely (import, transfer, possession) any high powered ammo that can be used in ANY handgun: 7.62x25, 7.62x39, 5.56x45 and probably many more. Anything usable in any kind of handgun that can penetrate a vest will be completely banned if this bill passes. Tim |
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How much metal is penetrating metal? Are they talking an Abrams tank or a pepsi can?
Seems silly that an elected official is worrying about this when california released 47000 inmates from prison last year on non revocable parole, fired most of the cops and messed everything else up. Hey, at least I80 from Dixon to Fairfield got paved |
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This bill could outlaw hunting rifle ammo. Once you mess with hunters, that's another group that often has many silent players. They too would come out in force to join forces against this nonsense.
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Virtually EVERY rifle cartridge has been shot from a T/C contender.
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Things usually turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out. |
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DeLeon's office knows little about guns... -Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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