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  #1  
Old 01-26-2011, 7:24 AM
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Exclamation 10mm sucks! Ballistic Test with pictures (50GI vs 10mm vs .45acp vs 454 casull)

Nice and interesting pictures from http://www.gunforums.com/forums/show...php?tid/10633/


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Had some extra time on my hands yesterday so i took a few hrs at the range to do some of my own Balistic comparison testing using 3 sets of wet soapy phone books submerged for 1hr measuring a total of 17inches per stack..And below i have posted some pics of the depth results and expansions...My velocities might not be accurate since my guns are not full length in size so you might wanna average a few hundred fps less than what is listed below..All tests were shot from a distance of 17ft...I will list from best to worst..From my tests the best expansion was the 50GI SCHP which measured 1.05" Shot from Glock21SF .50GI conversion 4.6" Barrel...2nd place 454 Casull Barnes X HP,expanded .65" ,Shot from Ruger Alaskan 2" Snub...3rd place 10mm Federal HydraShock expanded .63" Shot from Glock29 3.7" barrel.... 4th place The Gold Dot and Magtech .45 both expanded at .50" Shot from Glock21sf 4.6" Barrel... 5th place The Winchester SXT expanded at .48" Shot from Glock21SF 4.6" Barrel...and the Aguila had no Expansion when shot from Glock21SF 4.6" Barrel..The Aguila bullet is a fragmenting bullet that is suppose to fragment into 3 pieces when impacting soft tissue...In this case nothing happened so i gave it last place...As for penetration I have it listed below with the pics..The penetration results i tried to take exact measurements since it was hard to do this with a measuring tape using phone books..The Best penetration so far that i have seen from my guns is the .454casull penetrating at a whopping 15"..









guns used

Last edited by fennecfrank; 01-26-2011 at 10:26 AM..
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:13 AM
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That 50 GI is gnarly!
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:16 AM
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The .454 really penetrated a lot
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Old 01-26-2011, 9:55 AM
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on the other hand, the 10mm's didn't do so well.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:36 AM
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Dude that 50 GI was devastating. I need one. I have wanted to shoot one for awhile, Seems like a pretty cool round. Would probably be pretty cool in a 1911 platform.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:40 AM
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50 GI is in two 1911 platform: model 1 is a plain 1911 while model 2 is one with full dust guard with picatinny rail.

check out http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/

both model 1 and 2 are california approved.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:41 AM
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From a roughly scientific perspective, it doesn't look like a meaningful test.

The whole "soapy wet phonebook" thing provides a reasonably good baseline for testing, but the mixing of brands and designs establishes an uncontrolled variable for which you did not and cannot account.

It's still fun though!
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:44 AM
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That and I guarantee a 454 with a regular 7.5 inch barrel wOuld destroy the 50gi in power.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:51 AM
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Wouldn't wanna get hit with any of them, 10 included!
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fennecfrank View Post
50 GI is in two 1911 platform: model 1 is a plain 1911 while model 2 is one with full dust guard with picatinny rail.

check out http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/

both model 1 and 2 are california approved.
It would be cool to find just the slide/barrel set. That .50GI slug looks evil.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:01 AM
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They have a modified Glock 21 shooting the .50GI at the Range in Fresno, it's amazingly easy to shoot considering the power in your hands. The Ammo is even more devastating to purchase though, with only one source for ammo you are paying through the nose, I think it was $35 for a box of 20!!! Unreal how much fun that gun is though, rich people should all have one. And Guncrafter sells the conversion for about $550 I think, which on top of a Glock 21 is over $1K, but you get 2 calibers. I think it fits the Glock 20 as well but not sure.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2011, 11:14 AM
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mmmmm .50 GI.... mmmmm..... btw... i still love 10mm
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
From a roughly scientific perspective, it doesn't look like a meaningful test.

The whole "soapy wet phonebook" thing provides a reasonably good baseline for testing, but the mixing of brands and designs establishes an uncontrolled variable for which you did not and cannot account.

It's still fun though!
This was my very first thought. Most 10mm loads aren't full house loads a well.

Come back with a test that uses the same model of bullet, just with each different caliber, all loaded to the levels they were designed for.(Looking at the 1030 FPS 10mm. so slow compared to what it CAN do with a 180grn)
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fennecfrank View Post
on the other hand, the 10mm's didn't do so well.
Tell that to the wild boars that got hit with the 10mm! with a power of a 41 mag.
With One shot with a 10mm 200 gr flying ash tray, they have fallen and could never get back up.



I have friends that hunt bears with 10mm using Double Tap ammo. And has been very successful using Double Tap Bullet : 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast hard penetrating bullets!

Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1105fps / 542 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:57 AM
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As previously posted, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Different bullet configs react differently. It is interesting how each different bullet reacted. At least ya had fun doing it... I woulda. Really nice pics too.

Wonder what kind of bullet Guncrafters is using in the 50GI load. Looks like the same type of bullet CorBon uses on the 50 S&W. Massive cavity. Can you put up a pic of an unfired shell?
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  #16  
Old 01-26-2011, 12:21 PM
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sorry if I offended the 10mm lovers. Put the title that way to stimulate more hits, hopefully more inputs in return.

The OP of that website use commercially available rounds for the test, which is nice, since most people buy their ammos. if it was a test for hand loads, then, the result might be very different.

here is a picture of the bullet from Guncrafter Industries:

the 185 grain is on the left, while the 230 grain is on the right
unfortunately, the price for both is $42.25 for 20 rounds. Too expensive for target shooting, however, if compared with those home defense rounds, the price is not too bad.



2 pictures of the unfired shell:


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  #17  
Old 01-26-2011, 12:50 PM
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10mm in a GOOD full size pistol is GREAT>
The problem is that many people do not know the difference between FULL POWER loads and light loads in 10mm.

With FULL loads , out a 4.5" barrel is in the 41 magnum range.... Which makes .40 and .45 a bit weak.
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Old 01-26-2011, 1:20 PM
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First of all, the 10mm 180gr hydrashok you used ADVERTISES less velocity than Winchester's subsonic Ranger .40 (RA40180HP: 1080fps). I have loaded a 180gr JHP as low as 950fps, and as high as 1380fps, both from a 6" barrel. "10mm SUCKS" is a pretty bold statement...

Better factory loaded 10mm test rounds would have come from either Swamp Fox or Buffalo Bore. Swamp Fox's 180gr XTP load advertises 1325fps, and has been chrono-tested to be accurate. Double Tap's 10mm ammo comes up atleast 100fps short of their advertised velocity. I chrono'd DT's 200gr WFNGC, which advertises 1300fps from a 4.6" barrel, and it averaged 1215fps out of my 6" barrel.

I can almost guarantee that my 1400fps 200gr WFNGC handload would have made a nice big hole all the way through your setup. Someone on 10mmTalk recently tested a 1278fps 200gr WFNGC handload, and it penetrated over 27" into wet phonebooks.

I'm not saying that the 10mm is the best SD caliber in the world, I'm just saying that your test does not accurately represent the capability of the 10mm. I'll take my Glock 20 Longslide over that .50GI any day of the week, but I still prefer my G30SF full of RA45TP.
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Old 01-26-2011, 1:32 PM
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cool pictures.
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  #20  
Old 01-26-2011, 1:56 PM
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Yeah, if it's not ballistics gel in a controlled environment I'm not putting much faith in the results. But it I bet it was fun. Too many variables in wet phonebooks.

However, next time I am attached by wet phone books I will get my 454.
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  #21  
Old 01-26-2011, 2:02 PM
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I'm a hardcore 10mm fan but DAYUM that .50 looks amazing!
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Old 01-26-2011, 2:02 PM
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10mm = Awesomeness! i agree with my 10mm buddies here, those ballistics is just one test with some very mediocre rounds, if they tested the good stuff...well the title would of changed it all.... bad way to title a thread for the awesome 10mm just for hits?! btw again... that 50 looks happy
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Old 01-26-2011, 2:45 PM
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Fact is you shouldnt put much faith in any tests where guns, calibers, and medium can fluctuate so widely, it looks like it was alot of fun! but too many variables to discern a logical theory from.

I think you should have tried some speer gold dots made for each caliber, they are what most LE i know run, and for good reason. They are all the effectivness of the black talon, without all the hype.

edit: i have been looking at 10mm auto as my next pistol, or .357sig. want something exotic lol
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:31 PM
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10mm a solution without a problem. Still you can always say you have a 10mm and pretend to take yourself seriously. Even the bullet looks like a turd.

Once again speer wins btw.
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:38 PM
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I wasn't even going to chime in here, but since my fellow 10MM guys have I will add this. I would not want any potential 10MM buyer to read this and think that is was in any way an accurate description of the 10MM.

I have shot many pigs with the 10MM 200 HP Double Tap load. They seem to penetrate about 14 to 20 inches, expand nicely, and I have never had a jacket/core come a part.I am shooting them at close range and they usually drop on the spot. Most of the pigs weigh between 90-250 lbs. I shot one that was about 300 lbs and it died with a single round. In terms of logic, I would rate this test right up there with don't whittle towards yourself, nor pee into the wind. I can't tell you how the Double Tap round would preform, since I have never adopted the taste for wet, soapy phone books. 50 looks awesome and I am sure would work well. Fun stuff though and I bet the originator of the test had fun, so I guess that is what counts!
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:40 PM
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Forget the 50gi. 460 rowland ftw

http://460rowland.com/

The testing ^^^ done was for entertainment purposes only imo. The loads used for the 10mm is like about the weakest that factory ammo has to offer. Like comparing the mitsubishi lancer p.o.s to the mitsu lancer evo.
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECVMatt View Post
I wasn't even going to chime in here, but since my fellow 10MM guys have I will add this. I would not want any potential 10MM buyer to read this and think that is was in any way an accurate description of the 10MM.

I have shot many pigs with the 10MM 200 HP Double Tap load. They seem to penetrate about 14 to 20 inches, expand nicely, and I have never had a jacket/core come a part.I am shooting them at close range and they usually drop on the spot. Most of the pigs weigh between 90-250 lbs. I shot one that was about 300 lbs and it died with a single round. In terms of logic, I would rate this test right up there with don't whittle towards yourself, nor pee into the wind. I can't tell you how the Double Tap round would preform, since I have never adopted the taste for wet, soapy phone books. 50 looks awesome and I am sure would work well. Fun stuff though and I bet the originator of the test had fun, so I guess that is what counts!
I do value your experience but what if I came up to you and said I have this book and it was written by your creator because I said so - you'd immediately demand scientific proof which this article is closer to than just opinion.

btw this is inline with brass fetcher btw

he 10mm Automatic cartridge typically fires a 40 caliber 180gr bullet at velocities approaching 1300 ft/sec (with the once-available 'full-power' loads or by using handloads of maximum pressure). It was developed by the FBI partially as an attempt to increase the lethality of handgun bullets as a result of the tragic 'Miami Shootout' in 1986, in which two FBI agents lost their lives and many others were seriously wounded in a gun fight with bank robbery suspects.

Handguns firing this cartridge are typically 'large frame' semi-automatics, such as 1911-style handguns. Glock is a notable exception, chambering one of their compact pistols (Glock 29) for this cartridge. Featuring recoil similar to the .45ACP, the increased velocity of this cartridge plus the smaller diameter, increases its performance against hard barrier materials such as windshield glass and car doors. This increased penetration is obtained at the expense of decreased wounding efficiency in a tissue simulant, due to the higher velocity.

Cartridge : Remington 180gr JHP (part # R10MM4)

Firearm : Colt Delta Elite with 5" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 12.5cm @ 581 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Impacted at 1065 ft/sec, expanded to 0.669" average diameter and penetrated to 14.1" plus. The 'plus' is because the bullet exited the back of the block and penetrated ~ 4" into the polyester bullet arresting box. The bullets actual penetration should be well over 15".

Shot 2 - Impacted at 1124 ft/sec, expanded to 0.647" average diameter and penetrated to 12.7".

Shot 3 - Impacted at unknown velocity (chronograph malfunction), expanded to 0.664" average diameter and penetrated to 13.1".


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Old 01-26-2011, 4:00 PM
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For 10mm with max penetration and expansion hornady 200gr xtp's should be used.
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Old 01-26-2011, 5:39 PM
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Looks like fun. I wouldn't mind this particular gun...



And if I could... to have the ammo to shoot it to my heart's content.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:05 PM
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Those 10mm HS are old technology compared to the latest and greatest in the other calibers. Next time shoot the same bullet out of all the guns with the max velocity the cartridge will support. This way we can get a good idea at the difference, which would be less than what it is now.

Great pics, and thanks for posting.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
From a roughly scientific perspective, it doesn't look like a meaningful test.

The whole "soapy wet phonebook" thing provides a reasonably good baseline for testing, but the mixing of brands and designs establishes an uncontrolled variable for which you did not and cannot account.

It's still fun though!
In addition, you need to use the same bullet type across all cartridges otherwise the results may be due to bullet type and not the actual cartridge ballistics.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
From a roughly scientific perspective, it doesn't look like a meaningful test.

The whole "soapy wet phonebook" thing provides a reasonably good baseline for testing, but the mixing of brands and designs establishes an uncontrolled variable for which you did not and cannot account.

It's still fun though!
+1

I was going to say, the problem wasn't the caliber, it was the choice of ammo.

Hydrashock is crap and has been ever since better options have been available.
And 135 gr? Sure... 1600fps is a lot of speed, but 135gr can't carry that momentum into the target.

I don't own 10mm, and I'm not a 10mm fanboi. I like 9mm, .38spl, and my favorite is .45ACP... but this is not a properly controlled scientific test.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fennecfrank View Post
on the other hand, the 10mm's didn't do so well.
That's because the 10MM was really misrepresented here , thus flawed as far as what it DOES do, performance-wise. The test doesn't show the true power of the 10 because only TWO LIGHT loads were included against the hot/heavy-hitters in the other calibers! Put a REAL 10MM in there: 200 grain XTP going just under 1400 fps, THEN we'll truly see.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:42 PM
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Well, I guess I'm doomed if I'm ever attacked by soapy wet phonebooks.
Its an interesting exercise but as stated it needs to be same style of bullet loaded to the max potential for that caliber coming out of the same length of barrel etc.to be valid.
Or is this demonstration telling us the harder a caliber is to find, the better its penetration. Or perhaps an increase in price equals an increase in penetration.
Well at least he had fun
It has not changed my love of 10MM or 45 ACP.
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Old 01-26-2011, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fennecfrank View Post
That looks like G.I.'s interpretation of a Barnes design. It's really nothing more than a modified X-Bullet. Deeper cuts in the "jacket" (or hollowpoint "wall") a'la Federal HST ammo, only a bit more extreme. Devastating? Probably most definitely. I'd sure like to see if G.I. would make those "modified X's" in .400", 180 & 200 grain.
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  #36  
Old 01-26-2011, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stormy_clothing View Post
10mm a solution without a problem. Still you can always say you have a 10mm and pretend to take yourself seriously. Even the bullet looks like a turd.

Once again speer wins btw.
Wrong. 10MM was the solution. .40S&W became the problem. 40S&W = 40Short&Weak.
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Old 01-26-2011, 7:13 PM
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I doubt the .454 Casull Barnes X Bullet's 15" penetration through the wet pack is an anomaly.

The following example is comparable to 230 gr hardball penetration performance from a fully expanded Barnes X 185 gr HP.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...y&daysprune=-1


45 185 +P DPX shooting bullet
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by supersonic View Post
Wrong. 10MM was the solution. .40S&W became the problem. 40S&W = 40Short&Weak.
I agree with the Short&Weak (Even though i love my .40) since it's got nothing on what a 10mm SHOULD be. If you load up a high powered .40, it'll give you speeds that are better than most factory 10mm right now. I see this as very sad, especially since I helped a guy test some loads for a 10mm as it should be.

Properly loaded 10mm is truly awesome for a semi-auto. I recommend to those who own a 10mm to get some of the higher speed buffalo bore, or to just handload some and see how rediculous of a power factor you can get.
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
From a roughly scientific perspective, it doesn't look like a meaningful test.

The whole "soapy wet phonebook" thing provides a reasonably good baseline for testing, but the mixing of brands and designs establishes an uncontrolled variable for which you did not and cannot account.

It's still fun though!

yep. You can't get much deader than dead. Each one of those would do the trick unless you were getting attacked by a guy wearing soapy phone book armor.
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:53 PM
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that's some weak *** 10 mm loads. Much beter ones out there.
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