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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 01-23-2011, 10:48 PM
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Default Utah Introduces limitations on Non-Resident CCW Pemits???

Here we go again. John L. Valentine and Curtis Oda have introduced legislation [SB36] that will change the effectiveness of non-resident Utah Permits. Basically, you will need to have a "Home State" or "Resident" Permit from your home state, and your "Home State" will have to honor the Utah Permit. This effecitvely kills the Utah Permit for all California residents, except for those few that "qualify" for the California Permit, and even then, California will never honor the Utah Permit, because they do not have any "Reciporcity" at all. I think it's way past time for some "National Reciprocity" or "AZ" type of recognition of your "Right to keep and bear arms". These Utah legislators claim to be "Pro-Gun", Curtis Oda is even a Utah CFP Instructor! But they are always looking for ways to restrict legal residents from carrying guns. I just don't get it....why? Are there some mystery statistics that show how non-resident permit holders are more problematic or have more legal issues than Utah Resident CFP holders? I'd like to see those stats!

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/htmdoc/sbillhtm/sb0036.htm
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:31 PM
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IIRC, there was already a thread on this and the purpose...although poorly written and is supposed to be fixed...is to stop those that are living in shall issue states to get their own first if available. It doesnt affect us in Ca apparently as we are not a shall issue state.

Utah doesnt require live fire and others do, so someone too lazy to qualify in the shooting portion of their own states process would no longer be able to wimp out.

Or so im told...I cant cite the info or the thread, but its out there..
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Old 01-24-2011, 1:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP301 View Post
IIRC, there was already a thread on this and the purpose...although poorly written and is supposed to be fixed...is to stop those that are living in shall issue states to get their own first if available. It doesnt affect us in Ca apparently as we are not a shall issue state.

Utah doesnt require live fire and others do, so someone too lazy to qualify in the shooting portion of their own states process would no longer be able to wimp out.

Or so im told...I cant cite the info or the thread, but its out there..
That was exactly my understanding from a previous thread that was posted...
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Old 01-24-2011, 4:43 AM
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And it is also being discussed over at http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/ as well.
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Old 01-24-2011, 8:22 AM
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Default My apology if this is a double post.....

I could not find anything on SB36 while searching CalGuns.

Since this was just introduced on January 13, 2011, I thought it might be NEW news. I am glad some of you have such confidence in the political machine of Utah, but unfortunately, it has already gone to the Senate/to printing with fiscal note, and is waiting for introduction in the Senate. I am much more confident in what I see [READ] than what someone tells me they are going to do later, especially a politician! Get it in writing!

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/status/sbillsta/sb0036.htm

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Old 01-24-2011, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP301 View Post
IIRC, there was already a thread on this and the purpose...although poorly written and is supposed to be fixed...is to stop those that are living in shall issue states to get their own first if available. It doesnt affect us in Ca apparently as we are not a shall issue state.

Utah doesnt require live fire and others do, so someone too lazy to qualify in the shooting portion of their own states process would no longer be able to wimp out.

Or so im told...I cant cite the info or the thread, but its out there..
+1. Nicely put. Here's my 2 cents:

This law is commonly being misinterpreted. The meaning of SB36 is to prevent people who live in shall issue states like Idaho, Texas, etc. from simply getting a non-resident Utah permit to avoid having to get a resident permit in their own state. People are doing this on a wide scale because the requirements and costs of getting a Utah permit are much less (particularly with regards to renewals). As a result of this, some states were considering not offering reciprocity with Utah permits anymore. To avoid this fallout, Utah is attempting to promote that people from shall issue states get a permit in their own state first.

In closing, this has no bearing on anyone in California!
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Old 01-25-2011, 7:39 AM
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Default "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you”

D-Man and CCW Trainer,

I am glad that you have some additional information apparently not available to the general public, however, "This law is commonly being misinterpreted." Can mean several things....It's poorly written...It actually says what it says...There is another copy of the bill, with revisions that clearly state "This does NOT apply in California"? I have read the bill several times, and I can not find the part that states "This has no bearing on California."

I understand that the "Intent" of the bill may be something entirely different than what it actually says, however, when it comes time to interpret the bill [or law] it will be based on what it actually says. I further understand that the problem you have outlined is a "Internal" State problem, and the respective States such as Texas and Idaho should simply enact their own legislation on their residents, clearly stating the requirement for a "Home State Permit" for residents of their State. I seriously doubt that LEO's in Texas or Idaho are going to enforce "Utah Laws", so why is Utah making such an effort to correct a problem in other States? I understand that they do not want to lose reciprocity or recognition of their permit, but the reason Texas honors the Utah Permit is because of Texas Laws, not Utah Laws. They may want to consider modifications of their Reciprocity Agreement, rather than an all-out restriction. How are LEOS in Texas and Idaho going to know what's going on with Utah's Laws on CCW Permit issuance? They have enough on their hands enforcing their own State laws. This type of change should be made by the State having an issue, such as what Arizona did, [prior to decriminalizing the use of the 2nd Ammendment.]



My 10 cents,
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:00 PM
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Will,

Calm down a bit. No one's attacking you. We're all on the same team. Obviously what I posted struck a nerve. I sincerely apologize.

I am certainly reading the same words in the proposed law as you are. I'm also completely agreeing with you that it should be reworded. I'm just disagreing with your interpretation. When I read the words written in SB36 it translates to something other than what you've stated. Apparently, when you read the same words, it says something different than what I see it as. Regardless of how much sarcasm and absolutism you project in your post, your not going to change my mind. I really don't expect to change yours either. It really makes no difference what you or I think it says anyway. We'll find out soon enough how it's going to play out. For our sake as instructors and CCW holders, I hope it goes the way I see it rather than the way you see it. No offense but, I'm sure you can agree with that.

Anyway, take care.

Sincerely,

Wes
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Old 01-26-2011, 1:43 AM
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Highlighted Provisions:
This bill: requires a nonresident applicant for a concealed firearm permit to hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit from the applicant's state of residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has reciprocity with the Utah concealed firearm permit law; and requires a nonresident applicant to pay an additional $5 processing fee for the issuance of the permit.

This is the verbiage of the bill itself:
http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036.htm

Looks pretty straight forward to me... As written and currently unmodified:

1) Californians that want a valid Non-Resident Utah CCW will need to have a California CCW.

2) California will need to, "recognize the validity of the Utah permit".

That pretty much makes the permit a moot point for all Californians. California will not recognize the validity of the Utah permit any time soon, or ever for that matter.

There appears to be a Revision of the bill already, and it does not alter the requirements:
http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.htm

Here is a Thread that discusses the topic over at Utah Concealed Carry:
http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi...a&hilit=sb0036

While the INTENTION of the bill may be ulterior, the fact remains, in its current form, detrimental to California Non-Resident Utah Permit Carriers period.

Until I see a revised bill submitted, conjecture and theory are just that.

It appears that the USSC (Utah Shooting Sports Council) are co-writers and Strong supporters of the Bill:
http://utahshootingsports.com/

UPDATE 1/25
Following the progression of the bill here:
http://le.utah.gov/~2011/status/sbillsta/sb0036s01.htm

It appears that the Senate Judiciary, Law Enforcement, and Criminal Justice Committee has given it a "Favorable Recommendation"
5 yay
0 nay
1 absent
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  #10  
Old 01-26-2011, 2:24 PM
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Well why did Utah cash my check ASAP and process my application on 12/22/2010? My permit should be here any day? This all sounds fishy to me.
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Old 01-26-2011, 2:26 PM
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All it would take is a phone call to the Utah CCW people and ask. I may do that next week.
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:22 PM
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Keep in mind that the Florida NR-ccw is valid in most (If not all!) the states that the Utah permit is so by getting the Florida permit you should be covered!
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Old 01-26-2011, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Jake View Post
Keep in mind that the Florida NR-ccw is valid in most (If not all!) the states that the Utah permit is so by getting the Florida permit you should be covered!
Thanks. I have that one going as well. Florida cashed my checks fast. Seems states need $.
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Old 01-26-2011, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Jake View Post
Keep in mind that the Florida NR-ccw is valid in most (If not all!) the states that the Utah permit is so by getting the Florida permit you should be covered!
The only thing UT gets you over FL only is MN.
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Old 01-26-2011, 4:23 PM
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UPDATE. I just contacted;

John Spangler
Webmaster
Utah Shooting Sports Council
http://utahshootingsports.com

Looks like an effort has been made to help us out now. Thak goodness!

"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

Last edited by Jack L; 01-27-2011 at 5:30 AM..
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Old 01-26-2011, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
Well why did Utah cash my check ASAP and process my application on 12/22/2010? My permit should be here any day? This all sounds fishy to me.
Keep in mind, this bill will not make current permits invalid. It will make it impossible to apply, or renew without the new requirements.

Side note, if your renewal is within 90 days, I urge you to renew A.S.A.P.
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Old 01-26-2011, 8:57 PM
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Man I've been sitting on my paper work since last October, I hope I'm not too late, I need to get my fingerprints done and send it in ASAP, any one know a good place to get ink prints in Fresno/Clovis area?
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Old 01-27-2011, 4:36 AM
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Not to worry. Looks like CA will see no changes. So many have intervened on our behalf.

THANK YOU USSC.

Last edited by Jack L; 01-27-2011 at 5:32 AM..
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Old 01-27-2011, 4:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianm767 View Post
Man I've been sitting on my paper work since last October, I hope I'm not too late, I need to get my fingerprints done and send it in ASAP, any one know a good place to get ink prints in Fresno/Clovis area?

Around my area, the largest sheriffs office or city police stations do them.
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Old 01-27-2011, 4:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb7706 View Post
The only thing UT gets you over FL only is MN.
IIRC, Utah got you Washington before, whereas Florida did not. But now that I look again at www.Handgunlaw.us , Florida gets you Washington now as well.

So if this is not fixed and Florida doesnt change, the loss of Utah wont mean anything to me....I dont plan on going to MN anyway... I suggest all of you laggers that never saw the need to "collect them all" get on the bandwagon and get a Florida CCW.

I remeber my CCW instructor told me when I was doing the Nevada permit training (which also covered Florida or Utah requirments) that it would be a mistake to just get a Utah and not a Nevadfa...when you just never know when a reciprocity agreement might change...A few months later, Nevada stopped recognizing Florida and Utah.

Get which ones are available to you...
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Old 01-27-2011, 5:33 AM
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"Read the latest version of the bill. This has been fixed (at USSC's
request) to ONLY require "home state first" if the applicant's state
recognizes Utah permits, which Kalifornia does not. Passed Senate Committee
5-0 and headed for full Senate.

Submit your application, or better yet, flee to a free state while you still
can."

A+ and thank you..............
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Old 01-27-2011, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
Around my area, the largest sheriffs office or city police stations do them.
Yes I called the local popo and they said sure, $5 bucks a card, no appointment necessary and they only do ink, no live scan.

I also called Utah CCW devison and asked a question about the card and also the new bill that is proposed, they said yes get your apps in soon, but so far it is only just proposed and nothing is final yet, she also said it's also a revenue consideration for Utah, she said it may or may or happen, and even if it does, in the final form, Cali may still be good to go?

I'm sending in my packet on Monday.
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Old 01-27-2011, 8:35 PM
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Default The Good the Bad and the Ugly!

Okay...I'll drop it down a notch...but this is exactly how we lose our freedoms...a little bit at a time, eroded away because people don't "think" it will happen....

The bill was revised, but still reads the same....for CA Residents. As I look over the wording, you can read it "either" way, and while the "intent" of the law may be great, we [Kalifornia] have more laws than anyone that are misinterpreted every day. I know it's horrible that all of these young kids have glaucoma! But at least they can get their weed here! Once the Utah law is passed, it will be up to BCI to interpret it's true meaning...and that could be different than what the writers may have intended. I'd like to see something like, "This only applies to States that Honor the Utah Permit, or have formal reciprocity with Utah" However, that is not the wording.

http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillint/sb0036s01.pdf

The good news...

1) Get your Utah or Florida Permit Now! CalGuns Discounts apply!
2) If it passes, it won't take effect until 2012, so you have time to get your Utah Permit in. and
3) The Florida Permit will allow you to carry in almost the exact same States, for a few more dollars!
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Old 01-28-2011, 4:59 AM
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Your last statement is very true about freedoms being eroded and the students do have time to get their permit applications in. We shall see if it passes the full legislature as well.
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Old 02-01-2011, 8:14 PM
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Default Utah Senate passes destructive Concealed Firearms legislation by unanimous vote.

Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 9:47:18 AM

Friends, I don't normally bother you to get involved with political matters, but this bill, if passed into law, would severely degrade the value of your Utah Concealed Firearms Permit. The bill, SB36, The Concealed Firearms Act Amendments, if signed into law, would require residents of any other state to obtain a CFP from their own state before they could obtain a Utah permit. My letter to my local legislator and the governor are below as well as links to contact your own legislators. If you are not a Utah resident, I urge you to write Governor Gary Herbert and explain to him why you would oppose this law and seek his veto should it pass the House, which could occur at any moment. Thanks for your time.

--
Dan Kidder
Chief Instructor
On Target Defensive Training
www.utahontarget.com
(435) 238-7643


Dear Representative Vickers:

Regarding the state senate passage of SB36, the Concealed Firearms Act Amendments, I strongly urge you to oppose any changes that would limit access to non residents of Utah receiving their Utah concealed firearms permit. The value of the Utah permit is high because it is accessible for people who may live in states that recognize Utah?s permit, while having laws which make it difficult to obtain a permit for their own residents.

As the CEO and Chief Instructor for the largest firearms training facility in Southern Utah, we routinely have students travel from other states to obtain their Utah CFP. Additionally, we travel to a variety of states to provide instruction to those seeking to obtain a Utah CFP. As an example, we recently offered training in Portland, Oregon for more than 40 students who submitted applications for their Utah CFP. Oregon does not recognize the permit of any state but their own, and very few states recognize Oregon?s permit. These were mainly residents of Oregon and Washington state who enjoy traveling and who do not want to give up their right to carry when they are moving between various states.

Some of the great things about the Utah permit process is the uniformity of training requirements, the state oversight, the professionalism and helpfulness of the BCI, and the thorough background checks that are run on applicants. I have been in contact with legislators in both Georgia and Virginia urging them to adopt a model similar to that used by Utah in their own permit process.

SB36 would severely undermine those efforts, limit access to concealed carry for residents of states such as Georgia that have convoluted laws for obtaining a CFP, and lessen the value of the Utah permit to residents of other states. Additionally, Arizona, where we do a good deal of training, does not have a permit any longer. Arizona's residents like that they can obtain a Utah permit and still travel to many states that recognize the permit. Because of this, as well as our proximity to Arizona, many of our students come from that state.

While some changes should be made to the Utah law, especially those regarding shooting to qualify, SB36 is a shortsighted gutting of highly successful program that can serve as a model for other states. Additionally, the loss of more than $1.3 million for that program would severely cripple the efforts of the Utah BCI to maintain the high level of oversight that they currently exercise. I ask you to take the leadership of opposing this destructive measure.

Thank you for your time and consideration and I am happy to offer any assistance or input you may require to help this measure fail.

Sincerely,


--
Dan Kidder
Chief Instructor
On Target Defensive Training
www.utahontarget.com
(435) 238-7643

The Salt Lake Tribune Article on the Legislation can be found here http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/51...d-non.html.csp

To find and contact your Utah House member go to http://www.le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

To write Governor Gary Herbert, go to http://governor.utah.gov/goca/form_comment.html
__________________
William "Bill" Desy, CFE
NRA Training Counselor
State Certified Instructor
Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Law Enforcement Instructor
CCW USA FIREARMS TRAINING
www.CCWUSA.com
"like us" on Facebook for class discounts
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2011, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
(4) (a) In addition to meeting the other qualifications for the issuance of a concealed firearm permit under this section, a nonresident applicant who resides in a state that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit or has reciprocity with Utah's concealed firearm permit law shall:
(i) hold a current concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit issued by the appropriate permitting authority of the nonresident applicant's state of residency
So the fix is in, and we have nothing to worry about. This amendment passed the Senate 28-0. This now applies to only those who LIVE in a free state that has a reciprocity agreement with Utah.

For those (of us) who live in CA (edited to remove derogatory name replacement), or other states (where the Constitution is void or prohibited by law), you can still get your permit from Utah.

I talked with Rep. Oda, and he (and Valentine) had no problem with putting in this fix so we can continue to renew, and others could get their Utah permit. Even if you live in a shall issue state, but that state doesn't have a reciprocity agreement, you can get your Utah permit.

This bill affects ONLY THOSE who live in states that have reciprocity agreements with Utah. The bill is like saying "HAY, those who live in shall issue states that have reciprocity agreements need to get a permit from your own state before getting one from Utah".

I hope this clears this up.

Erik.

Last edited by Window_Seat; 05-22-2011 at 1:23 PM..
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  #27  
Old 02-01-2011, 10:05 PM
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Well after sitting on my app since last October, this made me get my butt in gear and get finger printed and send it in. I hope your right window-seat and were not affected any ways, but either way, my app is in the mail. sent yesterday we'll see how long it takes either way.
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  #28  
Old 02-02-2011, 6:42 AM
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Jack L Jack L is offline
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Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
So the fix is in, and we have nothing to worry about. This amendment passed the Senate 28-0. This now applies to only those who LIVE in a free state that has a reciprocity agreement with Utah.

For those (of us) who live in the USSR of Kaliphorhniah, or other states (where the Constitution is void or prohibited by law), you can still get your permit from Utah.

I talked with Rep. Oda, and he (and Valentine) had no problem with putting in this fix so we can continue to renew, and others could get their Utah permit. Even if you live in a shall issue state, but that state doesn't have a reciprocity agreement, you can get your Utah permit.

This bill affects ONLY THOSE who live in states that have reciprocity agreements with Utah. The bill is like saying "HAY, those who live in shall issue states that have reciprocity agreements need to get a permit from your own state before getting one from Utah".

I hope this clears this up.

Erik.
Thanks for the information.
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  #29  
Old 02-02-2011, 9:44 AM
Matt P Matt P is online now
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Thanks for the very important info Erik.
That helps easily clarify the issue.
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  #30  
Old 02-10-2011, 4:08 PM
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Received my Utah CCW today. It took 6 weeks from the time they cashed my check.
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  #31  
Old 02-10-2011, 6:07 PM
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They cashed my check yesterday (2-9-22) now I wait
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  #32  
Old 02-12-2011, 10:46 AM
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They cashed my check yesterday (2-9-22) now I wait
The countdown begins!
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