Magazines: all the answers you need

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by mosinitis

I appreciate the reply, but I'm not seeing any reference to the CAL. PEN. CODE § 12020 subdivision (b) section (7) exemption being superseded. Select the Up^ link here and you won't see anything relating to the curio/relic exemption. Are you saying that it's the absense of any sort of curio/relic exemption in ARTICLE 2. Exceptions Relating Specifically to Large-Capacity Magazines [32400 - 32450] that makes the exemption mentioned in CA penal code 12020 no longer valid? If so, please explain. Thanks again.

The Penal Code known as the 'Dangerous Weapons Control Law' was re-arranged and renumbered for 2012. 12020 no longer exists.

See http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes.xhtml and select Penal Code for the official state site. Annoyingly, this version of the legislature's code repository does not allow permalinks.

Yes, the absence of such an exemption there is the reason it does not apply to magazines.

Rather, old 12020(b)(7) is now PC 17705, an exception to PC 16590

The wiki has a 'translation' document, old numbers to new, here.

[mosinitis]

Does this mean that up until 2012, CAL. PEN. CODE § 12020 was still in force, meaning that it was legal up through 2012 to buy, sell or transfer a firearm with a high capacity magazine as long as the firearm qualified as a curio/relic? Again, I really appreciate the help.

EDIT: I checked out PC 16590 which states, As used in this part, “generally prohibited weapon” means any of the following: Subdivision (l) of PC 16590states, A large-capacity magazine, as prohibited by Section 32310.. In turn, as you pointed out, PC 17705 is the replacement for PC 12020 (b) 7, and it states the following.

17705
(a) The provisions listed in Section 16590 do not apply to any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and that is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the items under Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

This seems to state that the designation of a firearm as a "generally prohibited weapon" as described in all of the subdivisions of section 16590 (PC 16590) do not apply if the firearm is a curio/relic. This would then mean that subdivision (I) of PC 16590 (large-capacity magazine) would not apply to curio/relic firearms. So, even though PC 16590 has replaced 12020(b)(7), it is stating exactly the same thing as 12020(b)(7).

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by mosinitis

This seems to state that the designation of a firearm as a "generally prohibited weapon" as described in all of the subdivisions of section 16590 (PC 16590) do not apply if the firearm is a curio/relic. This would then mean that subdivision (I) of PC 16590 (large-capacity magazine) would not apply to curio/relic firearms. So, even though PC 16590 has replaced 12020(b)(7), it is stating exactly the same thing as 12020(b)(7).

I think that's close, but not exact.

A 17705 curio and relic is exempt from the 'generally prohibited weapon' category - but other than that designation in 16590, I don't see where 'generally prohibited weapon' gets used in PC.

That both large capacity magazines and C&R guns are listed there does not connect the two via 'magazine'.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by MikeR

Curious about this too, or even selling all the parts except one? ie Selling everything except the spring.

Answered before your post.

Originally Posted by inbox485

I'm not seeing anything indicating that a structured transfer would be different than a single transfer.

Until someone is prosecuted, we won't really know.

Please read the sticky here - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=904677

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by franklyfresh

Confirming that it is okay to buy a 17 round magazine limited to 10 round capacity from out of state, so long as the limit is permanent?

If the conversion is either
- executed before it crosses into CA OR
- accomplished by an FFL with the correct permit (LC Mag) before delivery to the consumer
then, yes.

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by bobbylee

I have a preban magazine. But it is out of state. Is it legal to used and/or own in CA? I guess it falls with the importing law right? Is this frustrating to everybody or just me?

Originally Posted by Tincon

Did you own it in the state before the ban?

As Tincon points out.

First post, item 4

The age of the magazine and the age of the gun mean nothing. The critical item is possession of the magazine(s) in California before January 1, 2000.

[Librarian]

No, your eyes are not deceiving you - a couple hundred posts are gone.

Those were principally discussing the formerly legal behaviors with parts kits; since 2014, possession and continued use to repair existing LCMs (or other magazines), or to convert to 10-round mags, is about all that remains.

[inbox485]

Originally Posted by Librarian

No, your eyes are not deceiving you - a couple hundred posts are gone.

Those were principally discussing the formerly legal behaviors with parts kits; since 2014, possession and continued use to repair existing LCMs (or other magazines), or to convert to 10-round mags, is about all that remains.

Might be worth a brief snip about importing individual parts or the ambiguity of leaving and coming back with kits following out of state use. I know it is unsettled question marks, but having people know they are in muddy water might be a good idea.

[4x4Trooper]

Originally Posted by LovingTheYear1911

Let's say I am going to do a PPT on a XDm that comes with a 13 round magazine. The previous owner gives it to me but disassembled. I take the 13 round magazine and epoxy it to only hold 10 rounds. The gun/magazine were purchased by the previous owner in 2013 but I did the PPT in 2014.

Questions are:

1) By me blocking the mag to hold 10 rounds, can I keep it legally?

2) It doesn't matter that I blocked the mag, in 2014 all 'large capacity' mags are banned, even if you blocked them to hold 10 rounds.

Thanks guys. I tried reading up on the laws but got lost.

It's illegal for him to transfer the disassembled mag to you, and illegal for you to receive it. Block it BEFORE you receive it, and you are legal. It's not a large capacity mag once it's permanently blocked, so it's legal.

http://www.magazineblocks.com/magent...d-and-xdm.html

[LovingTheYear1911]

Originally Posted by 4x4Trooper

It's illegal for him to transfer the disassembled mag to you, and illegal for you to receive it. Block it BEFORE you receive it, and you are legal. It's not a large capacity mag once it's permanently blocked, so it's legal.

http://www.magazineblocks.com/magent...d-and-xdm.html

So as long as he blocks it before I receive it, I am good?

As far as the law goes, how can I prove that I received it blocked?

Thanks

[4x4Trooper]

Originally Posted by LovingTheYear1911

So as long as he blocks it before I receive it, I am good?

As far as the law goes, how can I prove that I received it blocked?

Thanks

As long as it's permanently blocked, you are good. You don't need to prove anything, though. If it makes you feel better have him write you a receipt. Burden of proof is on the state to prove you received it unblocked.

[TheComebacKid]

What defines a parts kit? If I buy a polish ak magazine body, and have it shipped to my home in california with the floor plate, follower, and spring in a different package, would this still be considered a kit? Note that I am not trying to build a new magazine, rather repair an old ak mag that has a dent in the body, and will not allow the follower to pass said dent.

[Tincon]

Originally Posted by TheComebacKid

What defines a parts kit? If I buy a polish ak magazine body, and have it shipped to my home in california with the floor plate, follower, and spring in a different package, would this still be considered a kit? Note that I am not trying to build a new magazine, rather repair an old ak mag that has a dent in the body, and will not allow the follower to pass said dent.

Please read the stickies:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=904677

I certainly would not do what you are proposing, but I don't like jail.

[TheComebacKid]

Originally Posted by Tincon

I'm guessing you STILL did not read the link.

So basically my question cannot be answered with certainty?

[Tincon]

Originally Posted by TheComebacKid

So basically my question cannot be answered with certainty?

Exactly.

[inbox485]

Originally Posted by MCM

For a new CCW permit in Ca. can I use (3) hand guns that I purchased here legally yrs ago that came with standard capacity over 10 round mags?
Have not seen anything on that yet. I really would hate to have to buy new 10 round mags to replace the original factory 12-15 round mags the guns came with. They were purchased and registered here in Ca. The term used to be pre-ban. Not sure what they/we are calling it now.
Thanks

The mags are legal. Acceptability for CCW is up to your county's CCW division.

[Librarian]

Fixed the wiki - now says

Yes - BUT you cannot bring them back to California. It is no longer (2014 and forward) legal to import large-capacity magazines as disassembled parts kits.

Thanks for pointing it out; apologies for not fixing it earlier.

[inbox485]

Originally Posted by MauserMike

This is insane.... every LEO or gun shop you ask has 100% different answers. How can a state uphold laws that they dont even know or understand. how are we supposed to follow the rules when everything is in the gray? isnt legal but its not illegal so that means its legal right???? F- that SH!!!!!T,

so does anyone think they know anything about magazine in california and if you can use them or not without getting peppersprayed and tazed?

Really not that complicated. Read post 1. Read it a couple times if you need to. Use your best judgement, and keep your mouth shut if approached by law enforcement about it. Fact is even actual clear cut violations are 99% unenforceable unless you open your mouth and say something stupid (which is usually anything at all). So if you stay legal to your best understanding, don't volunteer for a finger fornication of everything you own, and don't open your mouth to explain to officer friendly when/how/what you acquired, you'll be fine.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[coleschmidt]

What would be the legality of ordering normal capacity magazines from an online seller, having them shipped directly to an out-of-state location to be blocked, then shipping/bringing them back to Kalifornia? Would this be legal? And if so, does anyone know of a shop or business that would provide a service like this?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by coleschmidt

What would be the legality of ordering normal capacity magazines from an online seller, having them shipped directly to an out-of-state location to be blocked, then shipping/bringing them back to Kalifornia?

Would this be legal?

And if so, does anyone know of a shop or business that would provide a service like this?

Is it legal to import 10-round magazines? Yes.

[SNBI]

So here is my question; and you will have to forgive what is perhaps my ignorance (I am new to all of this), but I, having read all of the posts in this thread up until this point, including the first post and the wiki, have not seen asked or answered the following question:

Assuming that sometime at least 3 years ago (given the 3 year statute of limitations), perhaps 5 years or maybe 10 years ago but after 2000 (which would make them legal so long as they were possessed in California at the time), an individual imported, manufactured, received, purchased, etc., either intentionally or unintentionally, a "large-capacity magazine", and given that-

Originally Posted by Librarian

It is perfectly legal - no restrictions at all in the Penal Code - to own and possess and use those "large-capacity magazines" in any gun*(see footnote), at any time, under any circumstances where it is legal to use a gun. Ownership, possession and use of "large-capacity magazines" are not crimes in PC; there is no section under which you could be charged.

Wouldn't all such magazines be now, for all intents and purposes, legal or at least unprosecutable? And by extension any magazine that lacks identifiable date specific markings as to manufacture, assuming you weren't caught red handed in some sort of sting operation (or a magazine belonging to a gun that is itself not at least three years old), be fine as well?

Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding how this works..?

Please don't misconsrue this question to be encouraging or condoning the breaking of the law in any way, but take it for what it is, an attempt to more perfectly understand a grievously imperfect law.

[eMerG636]

Can you Still sell, trade, give individual parts for example just base plates?

[cantdance]

Quick question, but first a scenario. I have a Glock 20 that I bought in '93 came with 2 15 rnd mags. I know I can legally own them and use them to this day. I even purchased 5 more mags, albeit at black market prices, after 1994 but before 2000.

I'm considering buying a Glock 29. It will accept G20 mags. Would it be legal to use the 15 round mags in it if I so chose? I don't see any practical reason for it, just curious.

[36Ford]

Originally Posted by cantdance

I'm considering buying a Glock 29. It will accept G20 mags. Would it be legal to use the 15 round mags in it if I so chose?

There is no PC that I'm aware of that would prohibit this. The mags themselves are regulated not the guns you use them in (assuming it doesn't have a BB). Matter of fact Glock mags are only stamped with caliber and capacity not model number, and we're originally designed to be interchangeable with different models anyways.

I don't see how this would be any different then using grandfathered AR mags in a featureless different brand or non AR rifle Sig, IMI, etc...

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by cantdance

Quick question, but first a scenario. I have a Glock 20 that I bought in '93 came with 2 15 rnd mags. I know I can legally own them and use them to this day. I even purchased 5 more mags, albeit at black market prices, after 1994 but before 2000.

I'm considering buying a Glock 29. It will accept G20 mags. Would it be legal to use the 15 round mags in it if I so chose? I don't see any practical reason for it, just curious.

First post in the thread, #2

It is perfectly legal - no restrictions at all in the Penal Code - to own and possess and use those "large-capacity magazines" in any gun*(see footnote), at any time, under any circumstances where it is legal to use a gun. Ownership, possession and use of "large-capacity magazines" are not crimes in PC; there is no section under which you could be charged.

ETA Law changed for 2017

[cantdance]

Thanks. I wanted to hear (read) it here. I've gotten different answers from lgs and leo people who should know the definitive.

[calimstng66]

Is it legal to have just the covers of a 30 round magazine sent to california with the springs and such removed?

[Librarian]

Originally Posted by calimstng66

Is it legal to have just the covers of a 30 round magazine sent to california with the springs and such removed?

Covers?

Bodies, perhaps?

We don't know what is the minimum to satisfy the definition of an illegal 'conversion kit'.

[inbox485]

Originally Posted by Librarian

Covers?

Bodies, perhaps?

We don't know what is the minimum to satisfy the definition of an illegal 'conversion kit'.

Parts that are the same for 10s, 15s, 20s, 30s, etc. should be fine. Parts specific to >10 I agree are a grey area. I personally would bring in complete 10/30s or nothing and even then, discretion and silence.

[Citadelonline]

Originally Posted by calimstng66

Is it legal to have just the covers of a 30 round magazine sent to california with the springs and such removed?

If by covers we mean + 10 magazine bodys, then this should help:

Section 32311.

"(b) For purposes of this section, a "large capacity magazine conversion kit" is a device or combination of parts of a fully functioning large-capacity magazine, including, but not limited to, the body spring, follower, and floor plate or end plate, capable of converting an ammunition feeding device into a large-capacity magazine."

Although poorly stated, a +10 magazine body is "capable of converting an ammunition feeding device into a large-capacity magazine." Importing one could be easily defined by the DOJ/AG/DA as manufacturing a large capacity magazine where none previously existed prior to January 1, 2000. See section 32310 - the original large capacity mag ban law:

"(b) For purposes of this section, "manufacturing" includes both fabricating a magazine and assembling a magazine from a combination of parts, including, but not limited to, the body, spring, follower, and floor plate or end plate, to be a fully functioning large-capacity magazine."

There is plenty of room for interpretation in both Sections 32310 and 32311 for the state to make a case.
Importing an unblocked "large capacity" magazine body could open up a legal can of worms.

[calimstng66]

Thanks for the info I appreciate it

[imarangemaster]

When I refer to my high capacity magazines that I possessed in California prior to 1-1-2000, people on other (non-Calguns) forums keep quoting the law that didn't pass banning high capacity mags, even if previously grandfathered in. My understanding is that that provision did not pass, because it hinged on another law that the Governor vetoed.

My understanding is that I can keep and use the mags I actually had in California prior to 1-1-2000 (in featureless weapons). all actually go back to the 1970s/1980s/1990s when I was LEO.

[inbox485]

First post covers your question. The provision you mention didn't pass and isn't law. But due to FUD, legal conduct and prudent conduct don't always intersect. I don't use LCMs around common areas on ranges because of how many idiots there are that not only don't know the law, but are just itching to rat out a fellow gun owner.

[imarangemaster]

Originally Posted by inbox485

First post covers your question. The provision you mention didn't pass and isn't law. But due to FUD, legal conduct and prudent conduct don't always intersect. I don't use LCMs around common areas on ranges because of how many idiots there are that not only don't know the law, but are just itching to rat out a fellow gun owner.

True, that's why when I go to a public range, I use 10s. Save my high caps for the desert, even if legal. For some funny reason, no one blinks at my USGI M1 Carbine with a 15 rounder... They must look like they go together.

[inbox485]

Originally Posted by imarangemaster

True, that's why when I go to a public range, I use 10s. Save my high caps for the desert, even if legal. For some funny reason, no one blinks at my USGI M1 Carbine with a 15 rounder... They must look like they go together.

People are accustomed enough to limited mags that even the fuddy duddies don't whine about them anymore. But there is always that tool counting your shots to see if it is really just 10...

[Darryl Licht]

Originally Posted by calimstng66

Is it legal to have just the covers of a 30 round magazine sent to california with the springs and such removed?

Why bother when you can still legally purchase a 10/30 mag here and online?

FYI- a 10/30 is a 30 round magazine that has been limited to only holding 10 rounds!

[Lead Waster]

Could dig out an answer, so I'll ask. Sorry if dupe.

Could you send a 10+ magazine to your CA FFL who can LEGALLY receive it, and send him a magazine block that will block down to 10 rounds and have him create a 10 round magazine for you?

I think the sticky question is that if YOU bought the magazine and YOU are no the FFL, even if the magazine will ONLY be received LEGALLY by the licensed FFL ... are you the "importer" since you caused the magazine to be imported into CA? At no time would any non-licensed-to-receive-a-high-capacity-magazine person have the magazine. So straight from out of state to a legally licensed FFL (licensed to receive high caps), then a 10 rounder from him to you?

[Darryl Licht]

Originally Posted by Lead Waster

Could dig out an answer, so I'll ask. Sorry if dupe.

Could you send a 10+ magazine to your CA FFL who can LEGALLY receive it, and send him a magazine block that will block down to 10 rounds and have him create a 10 round magazine for you?

I think the sticky question is that if YOU bought the magazine and YOU are no the FFL, even if the magazine will ONLY be received LEGALLY by the licensed FFL ... are you the "importer" since you caused the magazine to be imported into CA? At no time would any non-licensed-to-receive-a-high-capacity-magazine person have the magazine. So straight from out of state to a legally licensed FFL (licensed to receive high caps), then a 10 rounder from him to you?

I don't believe anyone will sell/ship hi-cap mags to anyone in California, FFL or not.

I think you could buy mag blocks ahead of time, then travel to AZ or NV buy 30 rounders and convert them prior to returning to CA. but only if you were going to that other state for another reason, otherwise your better off ordering 10/30's online! ...and I doubt you'd save any significant amount of cash!

[inbox485]

There is a hi-cap permit separate from the CA-FFL that a dealer has to have. There are still in state dealers doing in house conversions, and there are still out of state dealers shipping 10/30's.

Other option as mentioned is pre-order limiters, and add an errand to your next vacation out of state. The nuances are tedious, but I'd argue that anything from permanently modifying (ie, glue that is as strong or stronger than the material, or riveting), to part swapping (swap floor plate for integrated limiter and ditch the floor plates so that you are not returning with anything that could be assembled into a >10 round magazine so neither kit nor permanent modification clauses are triggered) covers the letter of the law, and your silence avoids "imperial entanglements" to begin with.

[Darryl Licht]

Originally Posted by inbox485

There is a hi-cap permit separate from the CA-FFL that a dealer has to have. There are still in state dealers doing in house conversions, and there are still out of state dealers shipping 10/30's.

Hmmmm... I didn't know that! But I've only seen prepackaged 10/30's for sale locally, and see them online all the time.