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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-2011, 2:41 PM
Choptop Choptop is offline
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Default Felons Purcahsing or Possesing Ammo

Its illegal for felons (and others, judged mentally incompetent... ect) to posses ammo. This means they shouldnt be able to walk up to the register and buy it.

Its a law already on the books, how should it be enforced?
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Old 01-20-2011, 2:58 PM
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By busting individuals violating the law when discovered by law enforcement like any other law. How else would it be enforced? Hard to shoot someone with just a box of ammo anyway. Plus if a felon were actually set on getting ammo they could start making their own.

Last edited by stix213; 01-20-2011 at 3:05 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:03 PM
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Bad laws shouldn't exist, and when they exist they shouldn't be enforced.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:05 PM
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What Q said.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:06 PM
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I wouldnt see why it would be illegal, the gun to shoot it is illegal for them to possess, and ammo without a gun just makes for interesting paperweights, and if they have a gun to shoot it with just charge them for that.

I cant realy see a felon holding up a 7-11 with just a box of ammo, actualy now I can, and it's a very funny mental image.

Last edited by robcoe; 01-20-2011 at 3:08 PM..
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  #6  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:06 PM
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Bad laws shouldn't exist, and when they exist they shouldn't be enforced.

so we have three votes for "its ok to sell ammo to felons and those judged mentally incompetent"
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
By busting individuals violating the law when discovered by law enforcement like any other law. How else would it be enforced?
should you be able to sell ammo to a felon?
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
so we have three votes for "its ok to sell ammo to felons and those judged mentally incompetent"
So we have one vote for "it's okay to ban someone for life for a misdemeanor DV charge, or for having gotten caught with pot in the '60's, or for having checked into a psych ward 50 years ago from exercising their constitutional rights until the day they die".
Not all prohibited persons are baby-smashing crackheads.

Last edited by QQQ; 01-20-2011 at 3:12 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
so we have three votes for "its ok to sell ammo to felons and those judged mentally incompetent"
Not necessarily, but I do think that there are some non violent felons that should have the right to protect themselves as much as you and me.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Its a law already on the books, how should it be enforced?
ummmm.... by arresting people who are felons and/or otherwise prohibited when they are found to be in possession of ammunition.

Was this a trick question?

Were you thinking maybe it should be enforced by simply revoking the 4th Amendment rights of all convicted felons for life permitting spot checks for guns and ammo?
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  #11  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:34 PM
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Not all prohibited persons are baby-smashing crackheads.
didnt say they were.

fact remains, they are prohibited by law from possessing, and therefore from buying ammo by current law.

the question is, how to enforce that law?
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
ummmm.... by arresting people who are felons and/or otherwise prohibited when they are found to be in possession of ammunition.

Was this a trick question?
so how do you prevent sales of ammo to felons? If it is illegal for them to posses, they cant buy it at the register.
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  #13  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:36 PM
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Not necessarily, but I do think that there are some non violent felons that should have the right to protect themselves as much as you and me.
fair enough.

that would take a change in the current law, and there would still a class of felons (and others) that are prohibited.

but the question still stands.

If it is illegal for them to posses, they cant buy it at the register.
so how do you prevent sales of ammo to felons?
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
so how do you prevent sales of ammo to felons? If it is illegal for them to posses, they cant buy it at the register.
You don't. You don't just like you don't "prevent" someone from buying alcohol and then getting behind the wheel while drunk. You don't just like you don't prevent someone from talking on their cell phone while driving making them a menace on the road. You punish behavior, you don't force behavior.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
so how do you prevent sales of ammo to felons? If it is illegal for them to posses, they cant buy it at the register.
You dont worry about it, if they are caught with ammo toss them in jail, nothing to tough there.
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  #16  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
You don't. You don't just like you don't "prevent" someone from buying alcohol and then getting behind the wheel while drunk. You don't just like you don't prevent someone from talking on their cell phone while driving making them a menace on the road. You punish behavior, you don't force behavior.
different issues... you are talking about USE.... I am talking about prohibited from HAVING.



ala... under 21 cant posses alcohol.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
If it is illegal for them to posses, they cant buy it at the register.
so how do you prevent sales of ammo to felons?
Well, since we have background checks to buy guns does it really matter if they can get ammo? After all what good does the ammo do if they have no gun to shoot it.
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  #18  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
different issues... you are talking about USE.... I am talking about prohibited from HAVING.



ala... under 21 cant posses alcohol.
It's on the felon to not posses ammunition, not everyone else to to keep them from getting it.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
different issues... you are talking about USE.... I am talking about prohibited from HAVING.



ala... under 21 cant posses alcohol.
Nope. Same issue.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
It's on the felon to not posses ammunition, not everyone else to to keep them from getting it.

Do you think that logic should apply to other situations as well? With firearms themselves? With alcohol and those under 21?

or just for ammo?

you do realize that no enforcement = legalization (pretty much)
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  #21  
Old 01-20-2011, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
Nope. Same issue.
no it is not.

it is NOT illegal for someone over 21 to buy or posses alcohol. A person can have a legal use for the alcohol.

it IS illegal for a felon to buy or posses ammo. A felon can have no legal use for the ammo.


there is a difference between using something that is legal for you to posses in an illegal manner vs. possessing something that is illegal for you to posses.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
so we have three votes for "its ok to sell ammo to felons and those judged mentally incompetent"
The substantial burden of any effective measure to prevent this would fall disproportionately on law-abiding consumers and FFLs, and would merely lead to criminals buying from alternative sources.

I believe Illinois requires a firearms owner ID card to purchase ammunition, and Chicago has one of the highest gun murder rates in the country.

There are lots of things that are illegal, but the cost of effective enforcement is too high to bother with. For example, it's generally illegal to pay a babysitter without paying social security tax, and potentially withholding income tax. But for the IRS to enforce this would require such a deep intrusion into the everyday lives of ordinary people that it's not worth the revenue.

Aggressively enforcing ammo sales bans fall in the same category. It sucks for regular people and hardly affects criminals at all.
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Do you think that logic should apply to other situations as well? With firearms themselves? With alcohol and those under 21?

or just for ammo?

you do realize that no enforcement = legalization (pretty much)
let me guess, you work for de León.

If they are caught with ammunition they go to jail(enforcement)

Guns(the part that make ammunition dangerous) require a backround check already.

Trying to set up a whole new system to deal with a very minor problem(imagine a felon trying to rob a 7-11 with a box of ammunition "gimme the money in the register or I'll, I'll throw this bullet at you, really hard", the clerk would probably die from laughing to hard.) is a complete waste of resouces. It's the equivalent of saying "to prevent people from driving without a license we will now require that everyone swipe their drivers license and submit proof of insurance before filling their car with gas".

Last edited by robcoe; 01-20-2011 at 4:14 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
different issues... you are talking about USE.... I am talking about prohibited from HAVING.



ala... under 21 cant posses alcohol.
Your alcohol argument doesn't work either though. It's not illegal for someone under 21 to posses or consume alcohol, they just can't be sold it or consume/posses in public places.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Its illegal for felons (and others, judged mentally incompetent... ect) to posses ammo. This means they shouldnt be able to walk up to the register and buy it.

Its a law already on the books, how should it be enforced?
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Its illegal for felons (and others, judged mentally incompetent... ect) to posses ammo. This means they shouldnt be able to walk up to the register and buy it.

Its a law already on the books, how should it be enforced?
Its enforced when the police raid a home of a drug dealer, parolee, gang banger. There is no such thing as shouldn't be able to. A criminal will always be able to get guns and ammo no matter what.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:14 PM
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let me guess, you work for de León.

.
No I do not.
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  #28  
Old 01-20-2011, 4:14 PM
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Here is what ya'll are missing... the completion of the sale IS the crime.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robcoe View Post
let me guess, you work for de León.

If they are caught with ammunition they go to jail(enforcement)

Guns(the part that make ammunition dangerous) require a backround check already.

Trying to set up a whole new system to deal with a very minor problem(imagine a felon trying to rob a 7-11 with a box of ammunition "gimme the money in the register or I'll, I'll throw this bullet at you, really hard", the clerk would probably die from laughing to hard.) is a complete waste of resouces. It's the equivalent of saying "to prevent people from driving without a license we will now require that everyone swipe their drivers license and submit proof of insurance before filling their car with gas".
Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner.

Next task: go through all of OP's posts.

I'm sure we'll find the OP is an "interesting" proponent of the RKBA
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Turo View Post
Your alcohol argument doesn't work either though. It's not illegal for someone under 21 to posses or consume alcohol, they just can't be sold it or consume/posses in public places.
it is illegal for someone under 21 to posses or consume alcohol.

I'll have to look up the CA code.

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Old 01-20-2011, 4:20 PM
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i dont see the problem with a felon purchasing ammo for his/her spouse or family member that is not prohibited, such as a christmas gift etc.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Here is what ya'll are missing... the completion of the sale IS the crime.
The felon already knows that he or she can't own it but buys its anyways.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Here is what ya'll are missing... the completion of the sale IS the crime.
So is annoying a lizard in a public park in Fresno. Do you want to install cameras on every lizard in every city park in Fresno to see who might be annoying them?

Sometimes the cost(in both money and aggravation to normal people) of proactive(ie, preventing felons from buying ammo) enforcement is to high to bother with for the tiny gains it could possably make. If they get caught toss them in jail till then quit worrying about it.

Last edited by robcoe; 01-20-2011 at 4:34 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:23 PM
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It's illegal for felons to posses ammunition and reloading supplies.

•(1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition.
•(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include blanks.
•(3) A violation of paragraph (1) of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.
•(4) A person who is not prohibited by paragraph (1) from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition, but who is enjoined from engaging in activity pursuant to an injunction issued pursuant to Section 3479 of the Civil Code against that person as a member of a criminal street gang, as defined in Section 186.22, may not own, possess, or have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition.
•(5) A violation of paragraph (4) of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:33 PM
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There should be two restrictions on buying ammo:

1) Are you over 18?
2) Do you have enough money?

Beyond that, the onus is on the purchaser to ensure that the ammo is possessed legally. (i.e. not if you are a felon). The enforcement should come by punishment in excess of smacking his or her wrist if you are a banned person caught in posession
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
should you be able to sell ammo to a felon?
Unless the state starts tattooing "FELON" across the foreheads of released felons, I don't see how any private individual or dealer would be able to tell felon from law abiding citizen. Do you want to require background checks and 10 day waits to buy a box of 9mm?

Even AB962 would have done nothing to stop a felon from buying ammo, fingerprinting and all.

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Old 01-20-2011, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by QQQ View Post
So we have one vote for "it's okay to ban someone for life for a misdemeanor DV charge, or for having gotten caught with pot in the '60's, or for having checked into a psych ward 50 years ago from exercising their constitutional rights until the day they die".
Not all prohibited persons are baby-smashing crackheads.
Yea what he said!!
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:39 PM
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You can't tell if someone is a felon or not. Criminals are criminals and there is nothing you can do about it. If they get caught then they shoul have to serve ALL of the time they get.
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Old 01-20-2011, 4:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Choptop View Post
Here is what ya'll are missing... the completion of the sale IS the crime.
If you read the PC you will notice the wording does not support this. Possession is the crime, there is nothing in the law related to sales or transfers. If you want to lobby the legislature to make it illegal to sell ammo to those prohibited from possessing, then you're talking about a completely new law with obviously new methods of enforcement.

Its actually perfectly legal for a felon to purchase ammo online to be delivered to someone who is not prohibited, such as a gift, as long as it is never in their possession.

Last edited by stix213; 01-20-2011 at 4:49 PM..
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Old 01-20-2011, 5:12 PM
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Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner.

Next task: go through all of OP's posts.

I'm sure we'll find the OP is an "interesting" proponent of the RKBA
I ask pertinent questions... which you dont seem to want to answer.

as for my RKBA status... I'm a lifetime NRA member. I have CCW's in every state. I participate in range clean ups.

before you TRY to impune the person asking the question, why not answer it.
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