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  #1  
Old 01-20-2011, 12:01 PM
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Default Appleseed Basics

Ok guys,

The nice folks a CalGuns have given us a spot to talk about Appleseed so I am going to use it to spout off.

What is Appleseed?

Appleseed is a rifle training program based on early 20th century US Army marksmanship. It is designed to train you to shoot at a rifleman's quarter mile. That is, hit a man sized target @ 500 yards. To put that another way,it teaches you to shoot from standard field positions and shoot to 4 MOA. Don't know what MOA is...come to Appleseed my child.

But I have heard that Appleseeds are shot at 25 yards.

Well 25 meters really. That is 82 feet. Here is the problem. We need to be able to use any rifle even a .22 rimfire. 4 MOA is 4 MOA. If you can't shoot that well at 25 meters I guarantee you can't shoot it at 500. By teaching you to be able to shoot to a 4 MOA standard (that is 4 inches @ 100 meters) when you do go to shoot the real distance you can hit the target. The other factors that come into play at that distance still need to be learned, but you can hit the target. Want to shoot an Appleseed at 500 yards? Then sign up for a rifleman bootcamp. But be warned those are 1 week long.

Can I shoot an Appleseed with my Barrett 50BMG?

Only if I get to try it. No really, Appleseed is a shoot what you brung event. Are some rifles better? You bet. Most production rifles don't have very good sights. The most common type of rifle you will see, at an Appleseed, is what we call an LTR (Liberty Training Rifle). You can read about those on the Appleseed forum. This is the link.. "But I want to shoot my Marlin 60, Remington 597, AR15, M1a or whatever Grandpa left you." Bring it. The only 2 things I can say is you won't get full use of the training without a military type web sling. You can get them from the Appleseed Store. They are also available at CMP and other locations. The fancy slings at the gun shop don't work well. The military web slings use 1.25" swivels so when you set up your rifle get 1.25" ones. If you can't find a sling try and get the swivels, instructors usually have a few loaner slings. The second thing is John Wayne was wrong. Yes, it hurts me to say that but lever actions rifles don't work well. The reason the lever gun never made it as a military firearm is that it doesn't work well in prone. Sorry cowboys. Also remember your ammo costs. .22lr is much cheaper than .308. After you shoot rifleman with your .22 then shoot it with your M1A.

Can I use a scope?

You bet. I have reached the age where it is a strain to focus on the front sight. I can do it but 2 days of open sight shooting gives me a headache. Bring your scope. You are going to want one with lower magnification. 18x will drive you crazy when you are shooting standing. Most 3x9 rimfire scopes work well.


Alright I want to go what should I bring?

Donuts and coffee for the instructors. No, not really but I do like the ones with the sprinkles. Here it is from the Appleseed web sight.

Personal items
A teachable attitude (most important thing) **
Ear protection Muffs and plugs **
Eye protection **
Elbow pads or shooting Jacket
Ground cover (Rug remnant will work)
A hat
Little notebook (those little 2.5 X 3.5 work well)
Pen
Sun Screen
Lots of water (Must stay hydrated)
Light Lunch
Snacks
Folding Chair (not necessary but nice)
Wet wipes
Bug spray
Aspirin or Ibuprofen
Necessary clothing for any kind of weather
** Very important things
Rifle specific preparations
Rifle preferably zeroed for 25 meters
400+ rounds of the same type and brand of ammo
Sight adjustment tools
GI style web Sling
Two mags. 10 rds. each.
Gun cleaning supplies and lube
Instructions for your rifle (if you have them)
Know your rifle
Something to cover your rifle to keep blowing sand or rain off it.
Staple gun
Staples
Back-up rifle (if you have one)

The shooting mat and something to protect your elbows is very important. Also ladies as much as we enjoy it, there hot brass flying around so keep your shirt tucked in, exposed skin gets burned.

Ok, I;m gonna come to your silly shoot. How should I get ready?

It is amazing what 2 days of getting in and out of shooting positions does to you. You will be sore after an Appleseed To stay in shape to get into positions I keep an old rifle stock in the house. Spend 10 min. every night getting into position. It will really help. If you want to practice at the range make some targets. Take a sheet of paper and put some one inch squares. Put them a 25 meters/yards and shoot them from your favorite position. Remember no bench, no sand bags, no bipod. I will see if I can attach one to this post.

Ok, I have probably left out your question let me know. Also an addition to the what to bring list. If you have an instant shelter like an ezup they are nice. Most ranges are short on shade.

See you at an Appleseed!

So this post has been up for a while and the one question seems to be about what kind of rifle. "Is my rifle OK for Appleseed?" The answer is YES! We have seen folks have a great Appleseed experience with everything from a single shot .22 to a Nagant 91/30. The most common kind of rifle at an Appleseed is what is called an LTR. Here is the dope on LTR's from the Appleseed forum. I hope this helps

Liberty Training Rifle - A Definition and Explanation of Purpose

Here at Appleseed, we have seen the cost of centerfire ammo skyrocket along with everyone else. When the prices started to rise, some enterprising Appleseeders worked up a trainer rifle based on the Ruger 10/22, and it was quickly dubbed the "Liberty Trainer Rifle", or LTR for short. Since then, the term LTR has become more generic in use to mean any low cost but adequate alternative to the centerfire rifles.

The Purpose of a Liberty Training Rifle

LTRs can be built upon many manufacturers' products and there are endless varieties available. The idea is to have an inexpensive rifle which you can learn rifle marksmanship skills, which will transfer to any rifle. An LTR serves two very important purposes:

1) It allows you to practice and improve your marksmanship skills without breaking the bank. For about the cost of one weekend's worth of centerfire ammunition, you can develop an LTR that uses inexpensive .22 ammo. After all, pulling a trigger is pulling a trigger. It doesn't matter which rifle you are holding at the time. Skills developed on a .22 are transferred instantly to your centerfire rifle.

2) It allows you to teach others fundamental Marksmanship. Every Appleseeder should always strive to "Learn today. Teach tomorrow." A LTR provides for an easy and less intimidating way for you to achieve that goal. It is ideally suited for new shooters or responsible children. And because it is not an expensive rifle, you will feel more comfortable to loan it to your brother-in-law.

Hopefully you see the benefits an LTR can provide to both your wallet and to your mission of helping The Appleseed Project Return America to a Nation of Riflemen. Here is how to build one for yourself.

How to Assemble an LTR

The Ruger 10/22 still reigns as the first and most common LTR, however we have seen many different rifles and variations on the firing lines around the country and over the years. Please keep in mind as you read through this, LTRs are not required, they are just a way for you to save on centerfire ammo. Most locations allow centerfire rifles and Appleseed allows up to .32 cal/8mm rifles. Also keep in mind, we don't want to discourage you from bringing the rifle you have in your safe NOW. There is plenty which can be learned with your current rifle, there is no requirement for you to purchase an LTR.

Appleseeders have acquired a good deal of information about the Ruger 10/22 as an LTR, over the last couple of years. We have included the more basic information here in this PDF file Assembling an LTR. The Ruger 10/22, being one of the most popular rimfire rifles ever, has countless accessories which can be added. We have tried to keep these to a minimum for cost and simplicity. Our recommendation is if you do take this route, do the minimum until you have attended an Appleseed, then you can make an informed decision on which other modifications you would like.

Recently, Marlin has entered into the LTR market with their Marlin 795. It can be viewed here, Marlin's 795 page. The benefits the Marlin 795 has over the Ruger 10/22 are as follows:
-The Marlin only requires the addition of Tech-Sights Click here for Tech-Sight information
-The Marlin already has sling swivel studs, Bolt release, easy to manipulate magazine release.
-Initial purchase cost of the rifle is currently lower than the Ruger 10/22.

There have been many favorable reports about the functionality and reliability of the Marlin 795. As well as very favorable reports on the Ruger 10/22

An additional note, the Tech-Sights for the Marlin 795 are the same as for the Marlin 60, so if you, like many, have a Marlin 60 in your safe, it is just a step away from becoming an LTR.

There is no requirement for anyone to purchase or use an LTR at any Appleseed Shoot. This information is provided to your to do with it what you see fit. The LTR concept has helped many Appleseeders become Rifleman, stay proficient and save a good bit of money on ammo. They also make great loaner rifles too.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 1 in squares with grid.pdf (13.2 KB, 859 views)
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Last edited by foesgth; 03-07-2011 at 10:52 AM.. Reason: Additional Rifle info
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2011, 7:19 PM
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You should put up a calender of events for California.. Perhaps talk Bass Pro Shops into letting you have a booth out front of the store one weekend or something.
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Old 01-20-2011, 7:50 PM
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Default 2011 Calendar

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Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
You should put up a calender of events for California.. Perhaps talk Bass Pro Shops into letting you have a booth out front of the store one weekend or something.

Here is the 2011 Calendar
. We do have a both at most gun shows.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:19 PM
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One thing I would do different next time: If you use the military web sling with the rear metal hook, remove it from the bottom, and put it on the front. Install a 1.25" sling swivel in the front (as you would normally) and instead of threading the sling through it, instead use the clip to clip it on. This allows you to get the sling installed on your arm, and just leave it there. When your done with your string of shooting, just unclip it and let it hang on your arm. I noticed I spent alot of time getting in and out of my sling during the prep periods when I would rather be working on position and such. This will speed that up.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:37 PM
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Never tried that one before. Tip for other big guys 6'5 300lbs... SARCO sells a oversize sling.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:05 PM
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I didn't know you could remove the metal clip from the rear portion of the sling without affecting the loop sling function.
I just used quick disconnect sling swivel up front and detached from the front sling stud when necessary.
Either way its nice to be able to leave your sling on your arm between stages.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foesgth View Post
22lr is much cheaper than .308. After you shoot rifleman with your .22 then shoot it with your M1A.
+1000 I shot my first AS with my AR... I figured that with what I spent on 223 I could have bought a 22 rifle AND ammo... so I did. Next AS will be with my 22.

I recommend Appleseed to everybody. I had a great time and I found that my shooting improved immediately, within the first hour. Mixing history with marksmanship is a win in my book. Sadly, life has prevented me from coming back, hopefully I'll get there in the next few months!
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Old 01-25-2011, 8:45 AM
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can we use more than 1 rifle? for instance start with .22 to saave some money on ammo then use a differnt caliber rifle later on in the day?
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric.c View Post
can we use more than 1 rifle? for instance start with .22 to saave some money on ammo then use a differnt caliber rifle later on in the day?
Yes you can. Just talk to an instructor when you are ready to make the swap since you cannot handle a rifle (even one behind the line) unless you are in a prep period.
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Old 01-25-2011, 3:16 PM
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A "backup rifle" is also on their list of things to bring.

Quote:
Personal items
A teachable attitude (most important thing) **
Ear protection Muffs and plugs **
Eye protection **
Elbow pads or shooting Jacket
Ground cover (Rug remnant will work)
A hat
Little notebook (those little 2.5 X 3.5 work well)
Pen
Sun Screen
Lots of water (Must stay hydrated)
Light Lunch
Snacks
Folding Chair (not necessary but nice)
Wet wipes
Bug spray
Aspirin or Ibuprofen
Necessary clothing for any kind of weather
** Very important things
Rifle specific preparations
Rifle preferably zeroed for 25 meters
400+ rounds of the same type and brand of ammo
Sight adjustment tools
GI style web Sling
Two mags. 10 rds. each.
Gun cleaning supplies and lube
Instructions for your rifle (if you have them)
Know your rifle
Something to cover your rifle to keep blowing sand or rain off it.
Staple gun
Staples
Back-up rifle (if you have one)
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Old 01-25-2011, 9:53 PM
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You can certainly bring more than one rifle. However, you'll only have one with you at a time on the line -- plan not to switch between them very often. If you keep switching rifles you can lose a lot of time.

One approach I recommend is to start with a .22, and if you're happy with your progress on it, switch to a centerfire either first thing Sunday or after lunch on Sunday. Or switch if your .22 starts jamming up or breaks.

Sometimes people start with a centerfire and find it's a lot more challenging than it looks, and wind up switching to their "backup" .22 when they don't get the results they want. Better to start with a .22 in my opinion -- nothing wrong with a .22, the exact same skill set applies.
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Old 01-26-2011, 7:40 AM
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sweet. i'll probably be up there on feb 12-13 with my co worker.
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:06 AM
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I'll be there....I'm the coworker.....
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Old 01-28-2011, 2:59 PM
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Default One Day vs Two Day?

I noticed that there are prices listed for one day and both days...

What would I miss or gain by attending either one or both days?
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Old 01-28-2011, 3:09 PM
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If you can only attend one day make certain that you attend Saturday.

Why: All the basics are laid out on Saturday. Miss those foundations and you will be fighting to catch up all day on Sunday.
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Old 01-28-2011, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxesOfLiberty View Post
I noticed that there are prices listed for one day and both days...

What would I miss or gain by attending either one or both days?
Not everyone can spend both days with us. We give you the option.

If you've never been to an Appleseed before, I strongly recommend you attend both days. The amount of instruction is formidable... We teach almost everything on Saturday, but it's like drinking from a firehose. On Sunday we review, add some new details, and get to find out what each individual's particular stumbling blocks are. We also tell different parts of the history on Saturday vs. Sunday.

If you've been to an Appleseed or two before and you're just in pursuit of the last few fine points, then it makes sense to only attend on Sunday. We run through a lot more AQT's on Sunday since the instruction is just a review.

If you've never been to an Appleseed and you can only spare one day, come in on Saturday. Sunday will probably be too fast since everyone else will have seen the instruction once.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-28-2011, 7:15 PM
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Question: what time does my Appleseed start?! I'm registered for the Appleseed tomorrow in Dulzura, and I can't find any information on what time to be there. Help would be appreciated as I want to be punctual!
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Old 01-28-2011, 8:08 PM
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Default Appleseed start time

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Originally Posted by jshoebot View Post
Question: what time does my Appleseed start?! I'm registered for the Appleseed tomorrow in Dulzura, and I can't find any information on what time to be there. Help would be appreciated as I want to be punctual!
Appleseed official start time is 08:30. If you get there by 08:00 you should have plenty of time to get registered. If you get there at 07:30 you will get drafted to help
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:00 PM
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From my experience, I would say that if it is your first time out you really should go both days. Saturday is a ton of information dumped out and not a lot of time to practice and absorb them. Really it was a bit frustrating for me. You would start something and then boom off to the next thing. Sunday you took all of that info that was dumped on you and started using it and practicing it over and over and over... THAT is where it started to make sense.
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:30 PM
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Another 400 rounds of 6.8SPC...

I gotta get that other stripped 5.56 lower built - Or start reloading - Or both...

So when I pay - The wife takes the class for free...?
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:04 AM
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So when I pay - The wife takes the class for free...?
The "fee" is $70 for the weekend if you pre-register. If you just walk on its $10 extra ie $80. We charge the extra for walk-ons to encourage people to pre-register online so that we can plan for how many are coming.

Thats for the weekend, if you come on only one day its $45 if you pre-register or $50 if you walk-on.

In addition to this RWVA fee there may be a range fee from the host range. This varies according to range and is usually anywhere from $5 to $15. Some ranges waive the fee.

Now for the "freebies".

We used to say women, and under 21's shoot "free", ie no RWVA fee.

Because we had so many people "sign up" and then not appear we are now charging a small fee to discourage this. This is $10 for weekend/$5 for day for women, and $5 per weekend/$2.50 for day for under 21's.

LEO's, active guard, reserve and military shoot entirely free of RWVA fees.

Some ranges may similarly vary the host range fee by age/gender/organization and whether you are a member of the host club.

Sorry its a complicated answer but thats how we are rolling for 2011.

Cheers
Phil (V on the Appleseed Forum)
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DannyInSoCal View Post
Another 400 rounds of 6.8SPC...

I gotta get that other stripped 5.56 lower built - Or start reloading - Or both...

So when I pay - The wife takes the class for free...?
Basically yes, women are $5 for 1 day and $10 for 2 days.
Of course you need to provide your own ammo and lunch.
Your own rifle is best but if you need an LTR you need to say so during your registration.
I would suggest a pair of Marlin 795's and 3 mags each. Low cost investment and HIGH accuracy and alot of fun umm good reason to get a new pair of rifles
You wife will need her own rifle you would both be shooting at the same time
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:16 AM
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I earned my Rifleman patch with a score of 210 a few years ago with my Ruger 10/22 with tech sights, It was awesome, I recommend it to everyone. Ive been wanting to try again with my Spikes tactical AR22, or even my AR15. Im also going to bring my wife next time.
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:33 AM
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I earned my Rifleman patch with a score of 210 a few years ago with my Ruger 10/22 with tech sights, It was awesome, I recommend it to everyone. Ive been wanting to try again with my Spikes tactical AR22, or even my AR15. Im also going to bring my wife next time.
Awesome, come on out. I would suggest for the AR that you use 10 round mags you will need the shorty mags
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:37 AM
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I know I need to get some of the regular 10rd mags, those 10/30's suck for going prone.
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Old 01-30-2011, 8:08 AM
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Hello All,

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend the shoot that they had at Chabot yesterday. A lot of their instructions on shooting took me right back to my days in the Marine Corps and the instructions that they gave me back then. The program is very well put together and organized and I highly recommend the training to anyone who is interested in improving their rifle marksmanship skills. Even as an experience shooter I was still able to learn something from the instructors who saw and correct small imperfections in my shooting which allowed me to improve my overall score.

In addition, I like the time that they took to talk about our heritage. It was a great reminder regarding the sacrifices that many have made for the freedoms that we take for grant today.

Some recommendation to anyone who is planning on attending Appleseed

-Prepare for changing weather conditions. It started raining on us near the end of the day and I ended up throwing a spare coat that I had in the car over my rifle to keep it dry. Next time I’ll carry a couple of garbage bags for all of my stuff.
-Try to ensure that your equipment is running flawlessly before you go in order to remove the distraction of it failing on you during training. I went through the training with my back-up rifle that I hadn’t shot too much which started having some failure to extract issues. For a new shooter I could see this being really frustrating if you were dealing with this and trying to learn a new skill.
-Do a little physical preparation also. Try getting into the positions before you go. This is the day after the shoot and I’m kind of feeling it. Also, as a shooter with some girth I also saw the need to get into a little better physical shape which would probably also help me improve my shooting shoot. 
-Have fun….your getting some quality range time in a country where you still actually own firearms. I recently went to Britain on vacation and got into a discussion about the gun regulations with some friends of mine who moved there for work. You think California is bad! Read up on the crazy laws that they have regarding firearms and air guns. Nonsensical!
-Get to know the shooters around you. I sincerely enjoyed meeting some of the other shooters from around the Bay Area who also saw the value in getting some training.

If the group who ran the shoot yesterday are out their thanks again for the great day!
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  #27  
Old 01-31-2011, 9:11 PM
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How long do these days usually last?
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  #28  
Old 01-31-2011, 10:14 PM
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Plan to be there at 8 AM. We start a little after 8:30, usually plan to finish about 4:30. Sometimes it varies a little depending on weather, daylight, etc.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:28 PM
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I'm new to shooting but want to learn. Would this be a good event for me to attend or are there some beginner's courses I should take first?
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:34 PM
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This would be perfect.

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Originally Posted by LittleWife View Post
I'm new to shooting but want to learn. Would this be a good event for me to attend or are there some beginner's courses I should take first?
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:43 PM
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Default Appleseed for beginners

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Originally Posted by LittleWife View Post
I'm new to shooting but want to learn. Would this be a good event for me to attend or are there some beginner's courses I should take first?
Appleseed is great for new shooters. if you don't have a rifle contact the shootboss at the Appleseed,, well in advance to get a loaner. Most instructors have a loaner rifle but the supply is limited. Looking at your screen name you may want to look into a ladyseed. That is a women only shoot. If you don't qualify for a women only shoot PM me and let me know the long story behind your screen name
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:52 PM
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How many spare magazines do we need to bring? I have a Ruger 10/22 which seems like it would be ideal as a primary .22, but I only have the one ten-rounder it comes with. Would I need to have multiple spare magazines?
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:28 PM
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For our course of fire you'll be happiest with a minimum of two magazines. Also, I've seen plenty of Ruger rotaries jam up with dust and grit. If you can afford it I'd suggest you acquire four or five. That will keep you running even if it rains or blows dust all weekend. Appleseed is a test of both equipment and spirit!

Having said that, if it's impossible for you to get another magazine, you should be able to borrow one from an instructor or another student. We'll do our best to take care of everyone.
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Old 03-07-2011, 8:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23 Blast View Post
I have a Ruger 10/22 which seems like it would be ideal as a primary .22Would I need to have multiple spare magazines?
Out of the box this rifle is less than ideal. Please look into the following:

1. Upgrade the sights to either Tech Sights or a low power scope.
2. Install a front sling swivel post, use a 1.25" wide sling mount.
3. Acquire a 1.25" wide web sling.
4. Modify the bolt lock release.

In my opinion items 1-3 should be mandantory.
Item 4 makes things easy instead of overly complicated

Sources:
Tech Sights: http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm
Sling mount/swivel: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=190783
Sling: http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart...id=10&cat_id=0
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Old 06-01-2011, 5:51 AM
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Can I mount the Uncle Mike's sling swivels on my 10/22 synthetic stock or do I run the chance of cracking or splitting? They mention they are "detachable wood screw type".
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Old 06-01-2011, 5:26 PM
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Default Synthetic stocks

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Originally Posted by Lazyme View Post
Can I mount the Uncle Mike's sling swivels on my 10/22 synthetic stock or do I run the chance of cracking or splitting? They mention they are "detachable wood screw type".
I have mounted uncle mikes on several of my .22s with plastic fantastic stocks. Just make certain that your pilot drill is close to the root size of the stud. That is the solid part inside the threads. Put a dollop of your favorite epoxy on the threads when you install and you should be fine.
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  #37  
Old 06-06-2011, 8:46 PM
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I'm hoping to attend the June 18th session at Angeles. So that I don't forget anything I've reformatted and printed out the unofficial Appleseed checklist. If you'd like a copy in PDF form to download and print out, just click on the image..







.
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Last edited by FastFinger; 08-12-2011 at 12:12 PM..
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  #38  
Old 06-15-2011, 10:19 AM
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Is there shooting on both days or just on Sunday?
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_k View Post
Is there shooting on both days or just on Sunday?
Both days, a little less than 200 rounds on a Sat where we teach all the skills building towards a shoot for score AQT or two in the afternoon and a little more than 200 rounds on Sunday where we review what was taught on Sat and then shoot lots of for score AQTs most of the day. All teaching is group based, on the firing line.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:28 AM
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Hi all. Quick question for you. I had originally planned to attend AP this weekend in Azusa. Somethings have come up (honey-do's) so now I can only attend the Sunday class. Would you recommend that I hold off and attend the next event on both days or just go ahead with Sunday only?

This is my first AP and I have very little experience with rifles.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Last edited by rookie4life; 08-05-2011 at 1:08 PM..
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