Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > SPECIALTY FORUMS > FFL's Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-15-2011, 10:24 PM
Librarian's Avatar
Librarian Librarian is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Concord
Posts: 33,117
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Blog Entries: 6
Default How to become an FFL (gun dealer) in California

This is for those who contemplate opening a business to sell guns.

BATFE says
Quote:
The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be “engaged in the business” without taking title to the firearms that are sold. However, the term does not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms. 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(C).
There are NO business requirements for a Curio & Relic FFL (C&R, 03 FFL).

Start reading here:
E-How - http://www.ehow.com/how_6400359_beco...alifornia.html
(Note they have the order of operations wrong - their step "5" should be step "2")

BATFE - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

CA-DOJ FAQ for FFLs - http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php
Having read those for an overview, the first thing you must DO is contact your local business license agency.

An FFL applicant must have a business license that says, "Valid for the retail sale of firearms"
before they do anything else.

The CA DOJ will not issue you a valid CFD (centralized firearms dealer) number unless you have all of these items.

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

If you will accept guns 'on consignment' (and, why would you not?) you also need a "Secondhand Dealer license, issued by [your] local Chief of Police or Sheriff in accordance with Business and Professional Code Section 21641."

The secondhand dealer license/permit is a local thing, so it would be where you live, but then you need to signup for the FDAS, which is on the CA DOJ webpage, but you need to know the special words
"Firearms Dealer Acquisition System" or "FDAS" :-).

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/fdasoverview
FDAS info h/t kemasa, 7/31/2012

California DOJ had a page of forms useful for dealers at http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/forms
The Nov 1, 2012 list includes

* Application for Centralized List of Firearms Dealers (BOF 4080), pdf
* Application for Centralized List of Firearms Dealers Locally Inspected Dealership (BOF 4081), pdf
* Application for Centralized List of Exempted Federal Firearms Licensees (CLEFFL) and Exemption Declaration (BOF 10-07), pdf
* Certificate of Eligibility Application (BOF 4008), pdf
* California Firearms Licensee Check (CFLC) Enrollment Application (BOF 08-301), pdf
* California Firearms Licensee Check (CFLC) Firearms Shipment Modification/Cancellation (BOF 08-319), pdf
* Large-Capacity Magazine Permit Application (BOF 050), pdf
* Dangerous Weapons Licensee/Permitee Forms
* Employee Certificate of Eligibility Termination of Employment Notice (BOF 118), pdf

Using Contra Costa County as an example, their web site says
Quote:
Check with County Zoning / Planning Department to make sure you locate your business at an address where it is allowed and that it does not heavily impact the neighborhood or require special parking consideration.
There is a Business License Application and an FAQ about Business licenses.

The full description of how to get a business license probably varies with every city and county and cannot possibly be included here.

There is some helpful business-related information (you were planning to run your new FFL location as business, remember?):
California Small Business Guide
CA Secretary of State Business Programs
Franchise Tax Board Tax Service Center
UC Merced's Small Business Development Center: Checklist for starting a business
and there are some handy city and county-based references: Orange, Sacramento, Claremont, Livermore
In ADDITION to Permits and Politics ...

The State has requirements for storage of firearms and ammunition, and local governments may add to these:
Penal Code 29141 describes a 'secure facility'; that's in with manufacturers (Division 7, Chapter 2), but also mentioned in
Penal Code 26890 regarding storage of inventory firearms by ordinary FFLs (Division 6, Chapter 2); 'secure facility' is not defined in that chapter.

Some parts happily copied/stolen from posts lower in the thread - thanks!
__________________
Calguns Wiki, Magazine Qs, Knife laws

Unless there is some way to amend a bill so you would support it,
the details do not matter until the Governor signs or allows the bill to become law.

Ask CA law questions in the How CA Laws Apply to/Affect Me Forum
- most questions that start 'Is it legal ...' go there.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.



Last edited by Librarian; 02-02-2014 at 7:54 PM.. Reason: add secondhand dealer info
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-16-2011, 6:58 AM
simanovkalashnikov's Avatar
simanovkalashnikov simanovkalashnikov is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 70
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks librarian. That's what I was looking for. Does anyone have any comments or stories on how difficult it was to attain FFL in California? I just thought it would be as difficult as getting a Concealed Handgun Permit. Hopefully it isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-16-2011, 7:03 AM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Librarian, edit your thread and tell them to start with the local business license agency. They must have a business license that says, "Valid for the retail sale of firearms" before they do anything else. The ATF will cash their check and issue an FFL that won't do them any good with the state if they do not have that business license first.
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-16-2011, 7:41 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I agree with Wes. If you can not get a local business license, which is the only one which might not be possible to get, then rest does not matter.

Also, they need to get a seller's permit (sales tax).
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-16-2011, 7:54 AM
dachan dachan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Santa Clara County
Posts: 2,008
iTrader: 197 / 100%
Default

I've been asked this many times, and my standard response is that it usually comes down to the CLEO in your jurisdiction. A typical dealer in CA has the following licenses:
  • FFL
  • CFD / Centralized List
  • COE
  • Resale Cert
  • Business License
  • Local law enforcement

Getting a FFL is easy, to maintain it, you must be "in the business". In CA that means maintaining your status on the Centralized List. To maintain your status on the Centralized List you must have a Business License. To have a Business License, you must have approval of you local law enforcement. This requirement is actually codified in the PC and listed on your Centralized List confirmation as "Local Firearms License". In some jurisdictions, the Business License and Local Firearm License is combined.

A sidelight, before CFLC came into being, having just a FFL was still advantageous for buying firearms wholesale as it takes a while for the ATF to realize you're not in the business. Now with CFLC, the number of suppliers is greatly limited if you are not on the Centralized List, and just having a FFL is not much use as no in-or-out-of-state FFL's will be able to ship to you.

Last edited by dachan; 01-16-2011 at 8:06 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-22-2011, 1:59 PM
dachan dachan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Santa Clara County
Posts: 2,008
iTrader: 197 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmithing View Post
Why do you need a CFD / Centralized List for out of state shipping

Dave
Federal law requires the recipient of an interstate firearms shipment to be a license holder (there are a few exceptions, like a personal firearm being returned to the owner). Federal law does not require the shipper to be a license holder.

CA state law now requires any firearm shipped by a license holder to have CFLC authorization. CFLC authorization is only granted if the recipient is current on the Centralized List.

Therefore, if you are not on the Centralized List, you will not be able to receive any firearm shipments from any license holder. And since all manufacturers, distributors, wholesalers and retailers of firearms are license holders, you will be severely limited on who can ship you a firearm, meaning pretty much only individuals.

inside or
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-22-2011, 2:27 PM
Gunsmithing's Avatar
Gunsmithing Gunsmithing is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Clovis,CA
Posts: 247
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The (CFD / Centralized List) is only for FFL's in CA
How would a FFL out side of CA use the list

Dave

FYI
I do have this CFD for Gunsmiths only
I do not sell firearm only repair




Quote:
Originally Posted by dachan View Post
Federal law requires the recipient of an interstate firearms shipment to be a license holder (there are a few exceptions, like a personal firearm being returned to the owner). Federal law does not require the shipper to be a license holder.

CA state law now requires any firearm shipped by a license holder to have CFLC authorization. CFLC authorization is only granted if the recipient is current on the Centralized List.

Therefore, if you are not on the Centralized List, you will not be able to receive any firearm shipments from any license holder. And since all manufacturers, distributors, wholesalers and retailers of firearms are license holders, you will be severely limited on who can ship you a firearm, meaning pretty much only individuals.

inside or
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-22-2011, 3:00 PM
dachan dachan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Santa Clara County
Posts: 2,008
iTrader: 197 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunsmithing View Post
The (CFD / Centralized List) is only for FFL's in CA
How would a FFL out side of CA use the list

Dave

FYI
I do have this CFD for Gunsmiths only
I do not sell firearm only repair
Any FFL can create an account on CFLC, thereby gaining access to the Centralized List. That is the whole idea of the CFLC system, forcing out of state license holders to check that the receiving CA FFL is actually a licensed dealer and not just someone with a FFL.

As a gunsmith, you may have a CFD but may not be on the Centralized List. There are additional requirements and fees to be on the Centralized List.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-22-2011, 7:49 PM
Gunsmithing's Avatar
Gunsmithing Gunsmithing is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Clovis,CA
Posts: 247
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The fee for gunsmith's in CA is $125.00 a year
Even with this I can not sell firearms in CA
At this time I have not use CFLC

Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by dachan View Post
Any FFL can create an account on CFLC, thereby gaining access to the Centralized List. That is the whole idea of the CFLC system, forcing out of state license holders to check that the receiving CA FFL is actually a licensed dealer and not just someone with a FFL.

As a gunsmith, you may have a CFD but may not be on the Centralized List. There are additional requirements and fees to be on the Centralized List.

Last edited by Gunsmithing; 01-22-2011 at 8:06 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-05-2011, 1:16 PM
996pilot 996pilot is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 78
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I talked to the license office locally and they said I cannot get a business license without getting the ffl first? So do they know what they are talking about
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-05-2011, 1:26 PM
EBR Works's Avatar
EBR Works EBR Works is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 9,496
iTrader: 102 / 100%
Default

I experienced that as well. I was told to bring in the FFL when issued and they would complete the business license with the magic wording to satisfy DOJ since I already got clearance from the city planning department.
__________________


Check out our e-commerce site here:

www.ebrworks.com

Now serving you from Prescott, AZ
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-05-2011, 1:50 PM
Santa Cruz Armory's Avatar
Santa Cruz Armory Santa Cruz Armory is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 4,330
iTrader: 76 / 100%
Default

I'm interested in getting my 07 as well. I like to build/ modify firearms. I'm just wondering if I could work an 07 into a 01 down the line. Does anyone know if an 07 easier to get zoning wise as opposed to a 01? Are the annual fees less for an 07?
__________________
FFL07 offering special order firearms sales and transfers in the Santa Cruz Area. Custom Gun-smithing also availabe. $35 dealer transfers

Check out or web page for current *Web Specials* WWW.SANTACRUZARMORY.COM
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-06-2011, 7:51 AM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 996pilot View Post
So should I get the ffl then wait for the city to issue the license?
Negative unless you get it in writing from the city that they will issue you a business license that says "Valid for the Retail Safe of Firearms" when you present a valid 01/07 FFL or they will pay you $10000 for void of this contract.

The ATF will give you a license. They do not care as long as you are not a prohibited person. They will cash your $200 check and they don't care if you have a license you can't use.

If your city won't approve you a business license with "Valid for the Retail Safe of Firearms" printed on it, the CA DOJ will not issue you a CFD and you will not sell guns in this state.

So I would not go through the trouble and effort of spending time and money for a license if I did not know that the city had or was guaranteed to give me a business license.

Good luck!
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-07-2011, 10:45 AM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
I am somewhat confused on the exact order of the city/county requirement. If you take the steps to go through the city for your license, resale permit, etc., does atf require that you have an actual physical correctly zoned business already leased or owned before anything else can happen? I guess my confusion is say I get approval from my CLEO, apply for my business license, resale permit, etc. Is having a license that states "valid for the retail sales of firearms" sufficient? My concern is do I have to out and lease a property that is correctly zoned before anything else occurs?
The ATF will issue an FFL to just about anyone as long as they are not a prohibited person and as long as they intend on holding the license for business. They don't care about your address, they don't care about your licenses with the CA DOJ, BOE, or local business license issuing authority.

In short if you send the ATF $200, they are going to send you back a valid FFL.

However, in order to legally sell firearms in the State of California, the CA DOJ certainly cares about everything else.

The CA DOJ will not issue you a valid CFD (centralized firearms dealer) number unless you have all of these items.

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

If you do not have all four of those items, don't even bother sending anything in to the state. They will send your whole application back and tell you no.

Now, what is usually the hardest item to get?

1. Local Business License: YES! This is the hardest item because some jurisdictions won't allow residential firearms businesses. Some just don't like gun shops. So if I were doing this, I would not do anything else until I had this license or concrete assurances I would get one.

2. Anyone can get a COE. ANYONE! It basically says you are not a prohibited person. Of course prohibited persons can''t get one.

3. Anyone can get a retail sales permit.

4. Anyone can get a FFL.

In theory you could do all of this without having an actual business. You could fill all of this out using an address and not until it is time to actually come inspect the business will you need to have something at that address. Even then you still don't have to have any of that in place as the ATF inspection is more of an explanation of the rules.
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-07-2011, 11:58 AM
We The People Firearms We The People Firearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 167
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I have a coe through my 03 license, and I have a resale permit. My city is very reasonable with ffl's, and if not, there is a city nearby that is practically a lock as far as the CLEO is concerned. So my steps then would be to ...

1. Apply for my local business license with the correct wording.

2. If I get approved for the license, then apply for my FFL.

3. If everything goes through with that, then I could send the information to the State for my CFLC?

4. If I get all of the above handled, then I could expect a meeting with BATFE for the explanation?

My only remaining question is how does the CLEO relate to the business license? Are they hand in hand? Do the persons who approve the license need approval from the CLEO because of the nature of the business?

Also, do you apply for an 07 at the same time? The gun shop I worked at for a year did not have our 07 until about 6 months after I worked there. Then we got it and began manufacturing AR's.

Thank you for your in-depth response. Very helpful.








Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
The ATF will issue an FFL to just about anyone as long as they are not a prohibited person and as long as they intend on holding the license for business. They don't care about your address, they don't care about your licenses with the CA DOJ, BOE, or local business license issuing authority.

In short if you send the ATF $200, they are going to send you back a valid FFL.

However, in order to legally sell firearms in the State of California, the CA DOJ certainly cares about everything else.

The CA DOJ will not issue you a valid CFD (centralized firearms dealer) number unless you have all of these items.

1. Local Business license stating "Valid for the retail sale of firearms".
2. Certificate of Eligibility (COE) (get it from CA DOJ)
3. Retail Sales Permit (BOE, Board of Equalization, sales tax permit)
4. Federal Firearms License

If you do not have all four of those items, don't even bother sending anything in to the state. They will send your whole application back and tell you no.

Now, what is usually the hardest item to get?

1. Local Business License: YES! This is the hardest item because some jurisdictions won't allow residential firearms businesses. Some just don't like gun shops. So if I were doing this, I would not do anything else until I had this license or concrete assurances I would get one.

2. Anyone can get a COE. ANYONE! It basically says you are not a prohibited person. Of course prohibited persons can''t get one.

3. Anyone can get a retail sales permit.

4. Anyone can get a FFL.

In theory you could do all of this without having an actual business. You could fill all of this out using an address and not until it is time to actually come inspect the business will you need to have something at that address. Even then you still don't have to have any of that in place as the ATF inspection is more of an explanation of the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-07-2011, 1:42 PM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
I have a coe through my 03 license, and I have a resale permit. My city is very reasonable with ffl's, and if not, there is a city nearby that is practically a lock as far as the CLEO is concerned. So my steps then would be to ...

1. Apply for my local business license with the correct wording.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
2. If I get approved for the license, then apply for my FFL.
Once you get a business license, apply for the FFL, COE, and Retail Sales Permit (I know you have a COE) all at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
3. If everything goes through with that, then I could send the information to the State for my CFLC?
Leave CFLC out of this. Once you get your CFD, then you can register to send guns around California through the CFLC system. Being registered for the CFLC is not required to receive guns, only to ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
4. If I get all of the above handled, then I could expect a meeting with BATFE for the explanation?
The BATFE will come by after approving your license, but before you get it. It is pretty informal. They will ask some questions about facility, storage, and things like that. No big deal just tell them what you have or what you have planned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
My only remaining question is how does the CLEO relate to the business license? Are they hand in hand? Do the persons who approve the license need approval from the CLEO because of the nature of the business?
CLEO stands for Chief Law Enforcement Officer. There is no CLEO "sign off" required by BATFE for a FFL. There is a CLEO "notification". Basically you are going to simply notify CLEO that you are a gun shop in the area.

Now this isn't to say that your local business license agency might not require CLEO to sign off on your local business license. However, there is no BATFE requirement for CLEO approval to receive your 01/07 FFL. Again this is why local business license is the first and foremost step. Starting anywhere else is potential waste of time and money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burninsome View Post
Also, do you apply for an 07 at the same time? The gun shop I worked at for a year did not have our 07 until about 6 months after I worked there. Then we got it and began manufacturing AR's.
If I am correct, you are either an 01 or an 07. You are not both. So if you want to be an 07, apply for that instead of an 01. As an 07 you can do everything an 01 can in the State of California.
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-08-2011, 6:12 AM
We The People Firearms We The People Firearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 167
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks again sir, your help was above and beyond.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-10-2011, 6:08 PM
twoguesses twoguesses is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 21
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Has anyone ever heard of dealing strictly online? Putting a website together and just dealing that way with all merchandise secured in a safe at one's residence? I live in oakland so there's no way i'd get a license for a storefront (not sure i'd want that kind of overhead anyway), but i've been kicking around the idea of having a strictly online business with the business address being my residence.

I've looked at the required forms and they don't really seem geared to this way of doing business.


Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks

Last edited by twoguesses; 02-10-2011 at 6:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-11-2011, 10:07 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

It should be possible, but I think that it will not work since you need a business license which is valid for the retail sale of firearms. If you don't have a local business license, then you can't get on the CFD list and if you can't get on that and have all the permits, then your FFL would not be valid.

You could check to see if you can get a local business license with the restriction that you have no one come to your location (might be a problem with UPS/FedEx).
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-11-2011, 1:09 PM
twoguesses twoguesses is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 21
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It should be possible, but I think that it will not work since you need a business license which is valid for the retail sale of firearms. If you don't have a local business license, then you can't get on the CFD list and if you can't get on that and have all the permits, then your FFL would not be valid.

You could check to see if you can get a local business license with the restriction that you have no one come to your location (might be a problem with UPS/FedEx).
See that's kinda my point. I would be selling retail but just shipping to a buyer's local FFL. I could also act as an FFL agent to recieve for a buyer (FFL to FFL, C&R handguns from out of state, etc.) but use a brick and mortar place for DROS and transfer (when necessary) for the 10 day wait.
I frankly would just be trying to recoup the periodic fees for being an FFL and getting on the CFD while having the convenience of the 01 license. Wouldn't really be trying to get rich.

Thanks for the input. Going to go over the scenarios and see what local muni has to say.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-20-2011, 5:30 PM
Mr310's Avatar
Mr310 Mr310 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,647
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Just out of curiosity, what if one wants an FFL to get guns for themselves that they would not otherwise be able to get? They would not be in the business of selling firearms, but would simply pay all of the taxes and fill all of the requirements so that they would be able to get a cool collection. Is that a definite impossibility or is it simply unfeasible because of the costs?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-20-2011, 5:35 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

The costs can be high, but more importantly a 01 FFL is not for a personal collection, but for a business. It is appears that you are not in business, they could revoke your FFL.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-20-2011, 6:05 PM
Mr310's Avatar
Mr310 Mr310 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,647
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The costs can be high, but more importantly a 01 FFL is not for a personal collection, but for a business. It is appears that you are not in business, they could revoke your FFL.
Ahh. Well, not to give anyone here the wrong impression, but what if the person in question were to simply do one PPT or something similarly small (say for just calgun forum members in the West Los Angeles area) per calender year. I know that the government frequently oversteps a great deal of boundaries when it comes to this area, or at least it seems that way to me, but there's no law against being a bad business person.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-21-2011, 12:20 AM
damoni's Avatar
damoni damoni is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 234
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

From my research on the matter, ATF will not renew FFL license after the first three year period, if no sales have been recorded. So I guess you would have 3 years to purchase all the firearms you would want for yourself before the "curtain was closed". Not to mention, you are going to need references to get accounts from manufacturers-(good luck). Although I haven't been researching for more than a couple weeks.
I am looking to start small, sell to friends and family first, as I expand to an internet base. Eventually moving to a retail location in 2-3 years time, and I've already got a massive headache trying to piece this all together step by step the right way, the first time.
I'm thinking that state gov. puts so many road blocks in front of you so one will throw their hands up in despair and walk away from it. (arming yourself with flowers and winning one for the dems!)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:31 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Yes, you could do some PPTs, but in the end if the BATF decides that you are not in the business, you could have a problem. Also, consider all the costs. I suspect it could be cheaper to move out of CA to buy the firearms you want and then move back :-).
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-24-2011, 11:05 PM
996pilot 996pilot is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 78
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

To get an 07 do I have to be zoned in an industrial area? Or is this up to the city I live in? I just want to build Ar's and aks. Maybe do some single shot conversions.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-24-2011, 11:07 PM
996pilot 996pilot is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 78
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Do I need a business license that says valid to manufacturer firearms? Or something to that effect?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-01-2011, 1:37 PM
echoarms's Avatar
echoarms echoarms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 509
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Negative unless you get it in writing from the city that they will issue you a business license that says "Valid for the Retail Safe of Firearms" when you present a valid 01/07 FFL or they will pay you $10000 for void of this contract.

The ATF will give you a license. They do not care as long as you are not a prohibited person. They will cash your $200 check and they don't care if you have a license you can't use.

If your city won't approve you a business license with "Valid for the Retail Safe of Firearms" printed on it, the CA DOJ will not issue you a CFD and you will not sell guns in this state.

So I would not go through the trouble and effort of spending time and money for a license if I did not know that the city had or was guaranteed to give me a business license.

Good luck!
Although I agree with the spirit of this, it can't always work that way. My local county sheriff (I don't live in a city) will not issue me a business license until i hand them a COE, resale license, and current FFL. That is the step I am currently at.
__________________
Visit my page at www.echoarms.com for casting, reloading, and firearms accessories.

Like my Facebook page: Echo Arms
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-01-2011, 2:08 PM
Gunsmithing's Avatar
Gunsmithing Gunsmithing is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Clovis,CA
Posts: 247
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Yes you will need a business license in most of CA.
Some times it is not hard
Most city's like you sell on main street not your home.
The 07 is use by some retailer to assemble guns in C zoning but you do have more paper work and taxs from the FED's

Good luck
Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by 996pilot View Post
Do I need a business license that says valid to manufacturer firearms? Or something to that effect?
__________________
************************************************** *********
David Smith
Gunsmith in Fresno and Clovis CA

Web site: http://gunsmithing1.tripod.com/ Email at gunsmithing@live.com
Our focus is working on your firearms, We do not engage sales or transfer of firearms.
Gunshop and Gunsmith Services Pricing
Other interest web site in Fresno Clovis CA
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe9/

Any posting of mine are not legal advice, which can only be given by a Attorney.


Last edited by Gunsmithing; 03-01-2011 at 2:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-01-2011, 2:48 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I believe that the FFL application states that you will get, not have, the required permits and licenses, which indicates that it is acceptable to get the FFL before all the other permits. Perhaps they won't do that in practice though.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 03-05-2011, 2:40 PM
Ang07's Avatar
Ang07 Ang07 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I have a home based FFL, teh ATF and DOJ want you to give them hours of operations, 20 minimum a week. I was led to believe, they don't want you doing buisness on the internet or mail exclusivley. Doing transfers is still doing buisness as far as they are concered. On another note, there are distributers out there who will work with home based buisnesses and are happy to do so.

Good luck with your buisness
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-05-2011, 3:02 PM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I have never heard of the 20 hours and I have been a FFL since 1993. They do want hours that they can just stop by and I have listed by appointment and one hour per week and nothing has ever been said. An inspector came outside the hours, but I talked to him anyhow :-). He actually was going to just show up, but could not figure out how to get to my place (not the best GPS I guess).
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-13-2011, 12:21 PM
Santa Cruz Armory's Avatar
Santa Cruz Armory Santa Cruz Armory is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 4,330
iTrader: 76 / 100%
Default

I'm in the application process now, and I'm getting a bit confused by the need for different licenses, etc.

I already have the approval letter from the Zoning/ Planning Dept. stating that I am approved for firearms sales and gun-smithing/ manufacturing. No business license is required.

Do I get the other business license from the Sheriffs office? Do I need A Federal EIN? Do I have to be registered with the CA Secretary of State?

I know I need a seller's permit from the BOE. What are my annual sales? I have a full time job and I plan to start out slow. A few special order sales, transfers, maybe a AR or AK built as well. But really want a storefront in a couple years.

I'm just a bit confused as to the sequence of events and whats needed for the ATF visit, etc.
__________________
FFL07 offering special order firearms sales and transfers in the Santa Cruz Area. Custom Gun-smithing also availabe. $35 dealer transfers

Check out or web page for current *Web Specials* WWW.SANTACRUZARMORY.COM
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-21-2011, 5:50 AM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLFD1 View Post
I'm in the application process now, and I'm getting a bit confused by the need for different licenses, etc.

I already have the approval letter from the Zoning/ Planning Dept. stating that I am approved for firearms sales and gun-smithing/ manufacturing. No business license is required.

Do I get the other business license from the Sheriffs office? Do I need A Federal EIN? Do I have to be registered with the CA Secretary of State?

I know I need a seller's permit from the BOE. What are my annual sales? I have a full time job and I plan to start out slow. A few special order sales, transfers, maybe a AR or AK built as well. But really want a storefront in a couple years.

I'm just a bit confused as to the sequence of events and whats needed for the ATF visit, etc.
You are golden that you don't need a business license and you have the letter from the zoning department. No other license is needed.

You probably need an EIN. I think you get those online instantly if my memory serves me correctly. You need to register with the Secretary of State if you are incorporating.

Guess what your annual sales will be. They only ask that so they know whether to ask for monthly vs quarterly sales tax payments.

Send in your ATF form 7 if you haven't already. The ATF doesn't care about any of this stuff. It is the CA DOJ that will want everything perfect before they proceed.
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-21-2011, 9:16 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

A Federal EIN is needed if you hire employees.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-23-2011, 11:07 AM
GunsAndAmmoGirl's Avatar
GunsAndAmmoGirl GunsAndAmmoGirl is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Hesperia
Posts: 52
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

BLFD1,

I had my BATF visit about 3 weeks ago, no big deal. The inspector stayed for about 1 1/2 hours, asked a few basic questions, went through a checklist, showed me some forms, went over the A&D book in detail, then went on her way. It was not threatening in any manner.

Now, the first thing I did before sending the ATF money, I got the zoning/planning department to approve my pending store address for retail sales of firearms. Once done with that, I sent in my federal application. While waiting (about 2 1/2 months for the initial visit) I got my COE and state resale permit.

When the BATF visited, she wanted to see the approval from the zoning/planning.

Two weeks later, I got my FFL 01 in the mail, went back to the city and got my business license (along with providing them my FFL, COE, and resale permit).

Next step, sent my FFL, COE, resale permit, and business license to the State to get my CFD. They should be here within 30 days for an initial license.

After that, CFLC in order to purchase firearms and get them shipped to me.

YES, a lot of hoops to jump through, lots of paperwork and time investment!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-23-2011, 10:27 PM
tenpercentfirearms's Avatar
tenpercentfirearms tenpercentfirearms is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Taft, CA
Posts: 12,837
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niccnak View Post
Would being an FFL be considered a valid reason to obtain a CCW?
It was for my wife. What county are you in? LA County? Forget about it! Kern County? Game on.
__________________
For superior customer service and good prices visit www.tenpercentfirearms.com. We are Kern County's leader in black rifle sales.

The Calguns Foundation - Board Member. DONATE NOW! Your dollars go DIRECTLY to front-line legal activism in CA.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-24-2011, 12:17 PM
niccnak niccnak is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 57
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

San Diego County.....SOL or what?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-06-2011, 5:15 PM
creekside creekside is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 424
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

What if I wanted to become a firearms dealer just to have my own in-house DROS terminal to process PPTs and firearms transfers?

A receiving service, as it were -- no retail sales at all. Receive guns from out of state FFLs and complete the transfer paperwork only. I understand that I'd be obligated to process PPTs for anyone who finds me.

I know it's an oddball question. Transaction volume would be low at first but might pick up.

I am told (by DOJ no less) that there are dealers who have DROS terminals without a storefront to work out of. How is this possible? I ask because opening a retail storefront is cost prohibitive but working out of leased space is not. Also, jumping through the hoops to get local zoning authority approval for a retail establishment is non-trivial, but since I don't plan to actually sell guns, is there a way to avoid this requirement?

Also, does the requirement to have a secure premise apply to my entire store, or only to where I keep the guns while the store is closed? Could I keep the guns in an (alarmed) vault instead of putting bars on all the windows, etc.?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-07-2011, 10:37 AM
kemasa's Avatar
kemasa kemasa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 7,117
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Depending on where you live, it is possible to do operate a FFL business out of your house as a non-stocking FFL.

You need to check with you local government (City or County).

A safe works for secure storage. There are other options, but most are not practical nor liked.
__________________
Kemasa.
FFL Transfer/Special Order Dealer since 1993.
Net-FFL list maintainer.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:09 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.