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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-14-2011, 1:11 PM
ap3572001 ap3572001 is offline
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Default Advice on out of state sale

Here is a hypothetical situation.
You buy a new Sig P220 in the store in Ca.
Take it out to the range a couple of time and don't like it.
You have a friend in CA ( who also is gun owner with HSC card and all that)
Since He is better with computers than You are, You ask Him to post it on Guns America and sell it for Him.

He does just that. Comes to Your house , picks it up and ships it to an buyers FFL in Montana with a copy of HIS CDL in the box.

Questions:

In this EXACT scenario, did any crime take place?

IS the pistol still in Your name in Ca?

Last edited by ap3572001; 01-14-2011 at 1:26 PM..
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2011, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Here is a hypothetical situation.
You buy a new Sig P220 in the store in Ca.
Take it out to the range a couple of time and don't like it.
You have a friend in CA ( who also is gun owner with HSC card and all that)
Since He is better with computers than You are, You ask Him to post it on Guns America and sell it for Him.

He does just that. Comes to Your house , picks it up and ships it to an buyers FFL in Montana with a copy of HIS CDL in the box.

Questions:

In this EXACT scenario, did any crime take place?

IS the pistol still in Your name in Ca?
2nd question first: Yes. No reason for the MT FFL to notify CA.

1st Question: it sort of looks like you transferred the 220 to the computer-savvy guy without benefit of FFL - that would be a crime in CA.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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  #3  
Old 01-14-2011, 2:24 PM
ap3572001 ap3572001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
2nd question first: Yes. No reason for the MT FFL to notify CA.

1st Question: it sort of looks like you transferred the 220 to the computer-savvy guy without benefit of FFL - that would be a crime in CA.
So the owner of the SIG P220 who askes a friend to post it on Guns America, and has them ship it to the FFL in another State. ( and gives a check to the owner of the gun) is guilty of what?

Last edited by ap3572001; 01-14-2011 at 2:26 PM..
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2011, 2:34 PM
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As I said, it looks like a transfer happened between the owner and the computer-savvy guy without FFL - that would be a violation of 12070(a)
Quote:
(a)No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Whether one might be able to successfully argue that no transfer really took place between the 2 CA people, I don't know.
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No one will really understand politics until they understand that politicians are not trying to solve our problems. They are trying to solve their own problems - of which getting elected and re-elected are number one and number two. Whatever is number three is far behind.
- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #5  
Old 01-14-2011, 3:01 PM
ap3572001 ap3572001 is offline
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[QUOTE=Librarian;5618708]As I said, it looks like a transfer happened between the owner and the computer-savvy guy without FFL - that would be a violation of 12070(a)
Whether one might be able to successfully argue that no transfer really took place between the 2 CA people, I don't know.[/QUOTE

I think that Ca Laws are a not very clear....

MANY times , friends give their guns to sight them in at the range.
To fix something on them . Mount a scope and then shoot it . ETC.

Are these all transfers?
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Old 01-14-2011, 3:17 PM
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No, those are loans and you can do that for 30 days.
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Old 01-14-2011, 3:38 PM
ap3572001 ap3572001 is offline
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So posting a pistol for sale for a friend and picking it up from Him and driving it to be shipped to an out state FFL is considered what???

Last edited by ap3572001; 01-14-2011 at 3:47 PM..
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Old 01-14-2011, 3:41 PM
9mmdude 9mmdude is offline
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You got me, I have no idea.
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2011, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
So posting a pistol for sale for a friend and picking it up from Him and driving it to be shipped to an out state FFL is considered what???
Who knows?

Your original post seemed to describe 'you' giving 'someone else' the pistol, and 'someone else' then selling it.

The only way someone should be selling a pistol is if he has a right to do that; usually that right is established by ownership, sometimes by something like a limited power of attorney where A grants to B the power to do something.

With firearms, I don't know how a LPOA would work without actually transferring. Consult a Real Lawyer (TM).

But if 'you' own the pistol, and 'someone else' sells it, the external observer could reasonably conclude that 'someone else' actually is the owner at the time of sale.

If we're going to do hypotheticals, then we need to be really clear about all the hypothetical actions. Make it easy for the imaginary LEO or prosecutor to see all the steps, so no mistaken conclusions might be reached.
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No one will really understand politics until they understand that politicians are not trying to solve our problems. They are trying to solve their own problems - of which getting elected and re-elected are number one and number two. Whatever is number three is far behind.
- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #10  
Old 01-14-2011, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
...Comes to Your house , picks it up and ships it to an buyers FFL in Montana with a copy of HIS CDL in the box...
This is the weird part. Why on earth would he include a copy of his CDL in the box when it would be just as easy to use a copy of the actual owner's CDL? The firearm is being transfered from the actual owner to the out of state FFL. So the FFL should log it into his bound book as coming from the actual owner and not from the actual owner's friend.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:44 PM
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