Unlicensed Person Shipping to FFL

[eville]

I'm trying to buy a Pistol from a guy in SoCal and have it shipped to a NorCal FFL.
The FFL does not want to provide a copy of their FFL to the unlicensed person.

I have the first thee and last five and have checked their license on EZ Check.

Does EZ Check supply enough information for the unlicensed person to legally ship the gun?

Gunbroker says no, but another dealer site says yes, because most FFLs do not want to go giving away copies of their FFL to unlicensed people.

We tried to have another FFL ship directly to my FFL, but the cost was REDICULOUS.

Please help!

[TRICKSTER]

You can also confirm his FFL info here.
http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by eville

...Does EZ Check supply enough information for the unlicensed person to legally ship the gun?...

Yes it does. If you are unlicensed then using EZ Check to verify an FFL is standard operating procedure. The law only requires FFLs to exchange copies of their licenses with other FFLs. ATF often tells FFLs not to give away copies of their licenses to non-FFLs.

[eville]

That's what I thought but how can I convince the seller?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Originally Posted by eville

...but how can I convince the seller?

Tell him to read this thread?

If he is concerned about making sure he ships to a real FFL then EZ Check is much safer than just a photocopy of a license. The photocopy could be faked. If he wants something for his records to prove that he really shipped to an FFL he could always just do a <PRINT SCREEN> of the EZ Check web page that has the FFLs address verification. If you have a good relationship with the receiving FFL you could see if he would send out a copy of his license with the words "FILE COPY ONLY" written across it a bunch of times in big black marker.

[eville]

Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté

Tell him to read this thread?

If he is concerned about making sure he ships to a real FFL then EZ Check is much safer than just a photocopy of a license. The photocopy could be faked. If he wants something for his records to prove that he really shipped to an FFL he could always just do a <PRINT SCREEN> of the EZ Check web page that has the FFLs address verification. If you have a good relationship with the receiving FFL you could see if he would send out a copy of his license with the words "FILE COPY ONLY" written across it a bunch of times in big black marker.

I believe and I would feel comfortable, but I understand his concerns.
And it's not that I don't believe everything I read, but is this information "published" anywhere on the internet like the ATF, DOJ or similar regulatory agency?

[PlacerTactical]

It doesn't get any more "official" than the ATF's EZ check site. https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
Alot of people don't even know what a copy of an FFL's license even looks like of if it is even legit. The EZ check is used for exactly your reason, it has the licensee name, address, and expiration.

[eville]

I read that you need a signed copy of the ffl. I have not seen anything "official" that says e check is an approved alternate.
Gunbroker has a section on this topic called shipment by unlicensed person
http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/Sup...1118&NoCount=1
Damn it shouldn't be this hard.

[PlacerTactical]

That is only what Gunbroker says, it in not required per federal or state law. It IS required for FFL's to get a signed copy though. The seller is making it hard on you, not dealers. The dealer could make it hard and require it to be sent from an FFL.
Have them call ATF and/or DOJ and ask. Good luck!!

[kemasa]

Call the BATF. There is also a thread about this and a link to a newsletter that the BATF sent out which states that a FFL does not have to give a copy of their FFL to a non-FFL. The BATF also says to not give out copies to non-FFLs.

See:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...86&postcount=9

Perhaps we need a FAQ sticky for these types of things.

[eville]

Thanks to all for the help. I'm just surprised I can't find the requirements clearly written by the ATF somewhere.

[kemasa]

I posted the BATF clear words.

[eville]

Originally Posted by kemasa

I posted the BATF clear words.

thanks, we were posting at the same time, i was just slow because i was on my iPhone. Hopefully this is enough to convince the seller. Otherwise I guess I miss out on my new gun.
thanks.

[kemasa]

If the seller does not accept that, then have them ship it through a FFL (at their cost). The seller can call the BATF to confirm the law/rules.

BTW, if the person can find a low cost FFL, shipping the handgun through a FFL can be cheaper since it can be shipped USPS. If the seller is near Simi Valley, have him contact me.

Timing is everything :-).

[foxtrotuniformlima]

When I have shipped stuff to a FFL, both in and out of state, I have gotten a copy of the FFL.

Seems you have 2 choices ; find another FFL who is not as paranoid about giving out a copy of his FFL or have the seller find a FFL who will not rape them for shipping it.

I guess there is always #3: FTF.

[kemasa]

It is not paranoia for not giving out a copy of your FFL to a non-FFL. There are good reasons and the BATF also says to not do it, plus there is no requirement to do so.

[GoingQuiet]

There is NO FEDERAL law requiring an unlicensed person to ship from an FFL. Federal law says it has to go TO an FFL.

Many FFL's myself included only give licenses to other dealers/manufacturers.

If you have first three and last five, EZ Check suffices and has all the info necessary to ship the firearm to the dealer.

[ugimports]

I've had many angry sellers from out of state demanding my FFL license. I instruct all of them they can call the ATF and verify they do not need it nor am I required to send it. I even give them the number of their local ATF office. They all whine and moan how it's a requirement and required, but nobody ever takes up my offer and calls the ATF. I even let them know that if something has changed to point me in the right direction and I'd comply. Some of these folks that "require" it just feel that since a few dealers have sent it to them I must be doing something fishy because I am unwilling to do so. I also let them know they can bring it to their local FFL whom I would be glad to send my documentation too. That has worked a couple of times.

[halifax]

Originally Posted by kemasa

It is not paranoia for not giving out a copy of your FFL to a non-FFL. There are good reasons and the BATF also says to not do it, plus there is no requirement to do so.

Does the ATF say it is forbidden by law?

[kemasa]

It is not forbidden by law, but what does that have to do with anything? It is not forbidden by law for you to post all your personal information, including your birthday, social security number, where you were born, mother's maiden name, etc., but it would be quite foolish for you to do so and would most likely cause you problems.

The BATF does say that a FFL is not required to give a copy of their FFL to a non-licensee and that is the important part.

I have received a call from the BATF to trace a firearm, which I never received and never dealt with the company that claimed they shipped it to me. Due to this, I now log who I send my FFL to and mark the copy as to who it is going to. While it will not stop any abuse, it helps to document my position and makes it harder for others to modify my FFL for their own purposes.

[eville]

Thanks for all the help guys.
The seller is now satisfied with EZ Check verification.
I'll post pics of my new Sig once I receive it.

[kemasa]

FYI, I sent a support issue to GunBroker.com and this is the response that I got back:

1/11/2011 9 46 50 AM
GBSupport1012 We have reviewed this ad nauseum with our attorneys and the ATF. The law does not speak to license verification requirements for the non licensee. In the absence of such direction it is reasonable and prudent for the non licensee to follow the same requirements as the licensee. PERIOD.

I am not sure of why the time is showing up strangely, so I removed the ":".

Clearly, they did not talk to the BATF since the FFL newsletter talks about it and also the BATF tells FFLs to not give their FFL to a non-FFL. The law only speaks to what a FFL must do with respect to another FFL, not people who are not licensed.

I sent them a link to the newletter, so we shall see if they can understand simple English or not. I suspect that they will not change as they have their view and facts will not change their opinion.

This is the response I got back. I guess the newsletter is not good enough or they can not understand it.

1/11/2011 2:04:14 PM
GBSupport1012 We have answered this question a thousand times. You are free to write for a written legal opinion directly from the ATF office in Atlanta, Georgia. They are required to respond to a formal written request sent in the form of a letter within a prescribed short time-period.

ATF
Attention: Office of Assistant Chief Counsel
2600 Century Parkway NE
Atlanta, Georgia 30345

If you get an answer different from what we already told you, let us know. (The other thousand didn't so we would bet good money that you wont either.)

[halifax]

Originally Posted by kemasa

...
Clearly, they did not talk to the BATF since the FFL newsletter talks about it and also the BATF tells FFLs to not give their FFL to a non-FFL. The law only speaks to what a FFL must do with respect to another FFL, not people who are not licensed...

Maybe if the ATF would change the wording on their eZCheck response from:

Warning: No one may use this screen, in lieu of the required certified copy of a Federal Firearms License, to acquire a firearm.

to " Licensees may NOT use this screen, in lieu of the required certified copy of a Federal Firearms License, to acquire a firearm."

It would be easier to convince non-licensees that it is OK for them to use it.

[kemasa]

True it would help, but it is still accurate as it mentions to acquire a firearm, not ship a firearm.

[halifax]

Good catch.

Licensee's are NOT "required [to get a] certified copy of a Federal Firearms License, to acquire a firearm" from a non-licensee, however; so, it really isn't accurate in that sense.

If the ATF frowns on us giving a copy of our licenses to non-licensees, they need to step up here and clarify to the average-joe non-licensee that the eZCheck is OK provided the firearm is shipped only to the address listed.

[kemasa]

Non-licensees do not have a copy of a FFL to give and since they are not licensed, there is no requirement. If it were required, then then ezcheck would not substitute.

Also, it is not required, but a very good idea for a FFL to verify the address and status of a FFL with the ezcheck instead of just trusting the required copy.

I agree that clarification would be good. The newsletter states that a non-FFL is not required to get a copy of the FFL, but that is not good enough for some people, like gunbroker. They are falsely claiming that a non-FFL needs to get a copy of the FFL.

[kemasa]

Since this thread was added to the FAQ, I wanted to add the direct link to the BATF information about not giving a FFL to a non-FFL so that people don't have to follow all threads.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf

End of page 2, beginning of page 3.

I also called the BATF and they confirmed to not give a copy.