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  #1  
Old 01-03-2011, 12:32 PM
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Question Mounting a red dot on top of a scope?

For my 22lr plinker, I thought it would be fun to mount a red dot reflex sight on top of the scope. Did some googling, saw pics of a few such configurations out there, but haven't stumbled across any practical info yet on setting it up.

This gave me the idea:



It looks like fun, but I want to get a little more magnification and spend a little less. I haven't purchased the scope yet, but I am looking at something like one of these:

or

Just a basic cheapo red dot:





Has anyone done this? Any tips or things to look out for? What hardware would I need to attach the red dot to the scope?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2011, 1:29 PM
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Be careful with your choice of RDS and mount in this configuration. Back in 2004 it was the hot new thing for guys to put Docter (or similar) mini red dots on their issue SF model ACOGs. Unfortunately for a lot of these guys these particular sights weren't durable and after being banged around a few too many times, they failed. One failed simply after the rifle was knocked over in a weapons rack. The other bad thing is mounting directly to the scope with one of those adapters you often see. I've seen scope bodies damaged that way.

So the two things you should consider is getting a durable optic, preferably one that has some kind of protective shield, and a mount that goes directly onto the scope rings or a separate receiver attachment.
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2011, 2:43 PM
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Thanks for the heads up. Fortunately, this is just for my plinking 22lr that won't see much abuse or "field use". It will just come out every now and then when I need to take out some soda cans before heading back to the safe. I don't have a problem spending good money on quality products, but it's hard for me to justify spending much at all on a nearly out-of-the-box 10/22. If the $30 RDS fails, no biggie, I don't expect it to last long as it is. I will be careful about damaging the scope like you said.

Any idea where to get one of those adapters or which ones are good?
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2011, 2:47 PM
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Comes down to how much do you want to spend and where you want the dot mounted.

Larue, Predator Tactical and Arredondo all make different variations.

Rich

ETA: While on top of the scope seems like a good idea, I'll tell you, the closer to the bore, the better.
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  #5  
Old 01-03-2011, 3:06 PM
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I would suggest taking a look at the 45 degree adapter Matt Burket sells that will mount any red dot right next to the scope right on the rail.

http://www.predatortactical.com/Opti...GEN-2-p37.html

This keeps the dot low and close to the bore so close-up shots have very little Point Of Aim to Point Of Impact offset like you will get with a top mounted red dot that is over 3.5" above the bore.

You get to keep a good cheek weld / head position going with this mounting schema by just canting the rifle to bring the sight to your eye. No prairie-dogging to lift your head way up for the top mounted dot.

Just saying, there are better ways to do this

You can also mount it out on the handguard at 45 degrees and get the dot even closer to the bore and have almost no POA to POI offset at close range.
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2011, 3:12 PM
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  #7  
Old 01-03-2011, 3:15 PM
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I will add if you mount the holo sight pictured, it will be very high over the bore.
Stick with the Doctor type, or Burris fastfie replicas. They are considerably lower mounting.
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  #8  
Old 01-03-2011, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
I would suggest taking a look at the 45 degree adapter Matt Burket sells that will mount any red dot right next to the scope right on the rail.

http://www.predatortactical.com/Opti...GEN-2-p37.html

This keeps the dot low and close to the bore so close-up shots have very little Point Of Aim to Point Of Impact offset like you will get with a top mounted red dot that is over 3.5" above the bore.

You get to keep a good cheek weld / head position going with this mounting schema by just canting the rifle to bring the sight to your eye. No prairie-dogging to lift your head way up for the top mounted dot.

Just saying, there are better ways to do this

You can also mount it out on the handguard at 45 degrees and get the dot even closer to the bore and have almost no POA to POI offset at close range.
Offset mount, brilliant.

What about this one? I'm sure it's not as nice as the one your linked to but it's about 1/10th the price:

http://www.amazon.com/NcStar-Degree-...dp/B004941DUE/
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  #9  
Old 01-03-2011, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balzak View Post
Offset mount, brilliant.

What about this one? I'm sure it's not as nice as the one your linked to but it's about 1/10th the price:

http://www.amazon.com/NcStar-Degree-...dp/B004941DUE/
Don't see any reason that one wouldn't work just as well. I was only familiar with the one Matt Burkett sells. Myself, I use a 45 degree handguard mounted red dot.
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  #10  
Old 01-03-2011, 7:46 PM
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Go to primaryarms.com they got what u are looking for for less than a hundred bucks and a 45 degree would have to be mounted out past the scope.


http://primaryarms.com/images/Scope%...t%20Reflex.jpg

Last edited by parakid; 01-03-2011 at 8:03 PM..
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  #11  
Old 01-03-2011, 9:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parakid View Post
Go to primaryarms.com they got what u are looking for for less than a hundred bucks and a 45 degree would have to be mounted out past the scope.


http://primaryarms.com/images/Scope%...t%20Reflex.jpg
Not so, Both of those 45 degree adapters will comfortably mount a small reflex dot sight right next to the main scopes rear end on any flattop style AR and most any rifle with a rail topped receiver. The mount fits on the flattop rail just behind where the rear scope mounting ring is. Worst case, you need to move the existing scope rings forward on the rail a tad to make room for this adapter, then just slip the scope back through it's rings to the same eye-relief.

Again, anything on top of a scope is gonna' have you sticking your head way up to get your eye behind the red dot. Prairie doggin' is a big loser IMHO.

The scope top miniature red dots appeared in 3-gun and multi-gun competition quite a few years back and didn't stick around for very long.

Back around 2001-2002, JP Rifles pioneered the miniature reflex sight on AR's for tactical and competition usage (they initially used the Optima by Tasco and later marketed the J-Point after buying the rights from FirePoint in the UK). Their first iteration of the setup featured a top-of-scope mounting schema for the Optima/J-Point. A few folks tried it and no one really stuck with it. I remember John Paul demonstrating it to me at the 2002 3 gun nationals when I ordered my first CTR-02 from him and gave him my lower to graft it onto. Within about 10-12 months JP Rifles introduced their handguard mounts for these lo-profile reflex dot sights and BAM! within another year they had taken over the competition market by storm as secondary CQ sights on USPSA open division rifles.

A year or two later the 45 degree receiver mounted miniature reflex sights started showing up and here we are now with a number of options available that keep the dot close to the bore for minimal POA to POI offset and allow fast dot acquisition with minimal head/eye movement when you transition to the reflex sight from the main optic.

The top-mounted dots may look cool but they are a loser with a capital L in competition and real world scenarios. Might as well move on back to 1998 and just clamp an Aimpoint onto the side of my scope with a hose-clamp. At least the dot would be lower than a J-Point sitting way up on top



Oh, and BTW, there is nothing wrong with a reflex sight out past the scope on the forward part of the flattop rail or on the handguards. In fact, thats the way a whole lot of top practical competition shooters do it. Accuracy does not change no matter how close or far it is away from your eye. You could stick it out on the side of the gas block or right next to the muzzle and it would still work just as well.

Last edited by GeoffLinder; 01-03-2011 at 9:59 PM..
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  #12  
Old 01-03-2011, 9:47 PM
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Here's the one I've been thinking about

http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=202&parents=69,162

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  #13  
Old 01-03-2011, 9:53 PM
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At least rotate it down to the right so it's not right up on top where you have to lift your head and change your cheek-weld to see it

Why oh why do so many folks think on top of a scope is a good place to put a red dot for CQB work? You need to get that dot down near the barrel bore and up on top ain't nowhere near the barrel bore, LOL

Last edited by GeoffLinder; 01-03-2011 at 9:56 PM..
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  #14  
Old 01-04-2011, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLaSeoulRZN View Post
Here's the one I've been thinking about

http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=202&parents=69,162

That one looks really slick, but wouldn't the cheapo 45* mount I linked to put the RDS closer to the bore?
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  #15  
Old 01-04-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
Not so, Both of those 45 degree adapters will comfortably mount a small reflex dot sight right next to the main scopes rear end on any flattop style AR and most any rifle with a rail topped receiver. The mount fits on the flattop rail just behind where the rear scope mounting ring is. Worst case, you need to move the existing scope rings forward on the rail a tad to make room for this adapter, then just slip the scope back through it's rings to the same eye-relief.

Again, anything on top of a scope is gonna' have you sticking your head way up to get your eye behind the red dot. Prairie doggin' is a big loser IMHO.
I thought the angled mounts fit beneath the scope? I imagined the angled mount sitting right under the scope, right in between the front and rear scope rings, allowing the RDS to be positioned right beside to the scope. This is assuming that the rings give enough clearance, but the angled mounts look pretty flat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
The scope top miniature red dots appeared in 3-gun and multi-gun competition quite a few years back and didn't stick around for very long.

Back around 2001-2002, JP Rifles pioneered the miniature reflex sight on AR's for tactical and competition usage (they initially used the Optima by Tasco and later marketed the J-Point after buying the rights from FirePoint in the UK). Their first iteration of the setup featured a top-of-scope mounting schema for the Optima/J-Point. A few folks tried it and no one really stuck with it. I remember John Paul demonstrating it to me at the 2002 3 gun nationals when I ordered my first CTR-02 from him and gave him my lower to graft it onto. Within about 10-12 months JP Rifles introduced their handguard mounts for these lo-profile reflex dot sights and BAM! within another year they had taken over the competition market by storm as secondary CQ sights on USPSA open division rifles.

A year or two later the 45 degree receiver mounted miniature reflex sights started showing up and here we are now with a number of options available that keep the dot close to the bore for minimal POA to POI offset and allow fast dot acquisition with minimal head/eye movement when you transition to the reflex sight from the main optic.

The top-mounted dots may look cool but they are a loser with a capital L in competition and real world scenarios. Might as well move on back to 1998 and just clamp an Aimpoint onto the side of my scope with a hose-clamp. At least the dot would be lower than a J-Point sitting way up on top
I'm glad there are others who have found practical utility in combining a scope and reflex sight on the same weapon. I've never tried it personally or even handled a weapon with such a setup, but I imagine it could broaden the range of "usability" of the weapon.

Obviously you would be able to reap the benefits of an exclusive RDS setup (fast close-range target acquisition), but I suspect it could also help speed-up long-range or moving target acquisition by first sighting with the RDS, and then tilting the weapon slightly (or whatever movement is preferable) to switch to the scope. Is it a correct assumption that a reflex sight could be an excellent compliment to a scope?

Most people seem to design their rifles for almost exclusive close-range, fast-acquisition scenarios with 1x-4x holosights/scopes, or a setup that is slower to manipulate with greater range and accuracy. I suspected there must have been some kind of major flaw or just lack of suitable hardware for RDS/scope setups since it doesn't seem all that common. I guess if you have multiple rifles to play with it might just be tempting to design each with specific purposes rather than striving for that mythical "do it all" weapon.

.

Last edited by balzak; 01-04-2011 at 11:51 AM..
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  #16  
Old 01-04-2011, 5:36 PM
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Top competitors in multi-gun competition either use low-powered variables for all engagement distances or mount a close-up sight system in addition to primary optic.

No one uses the short range sights to locate long range targets first. You use one or the other depending on the situation and transitioning to one from the other is as simple as twisting the rifle.

The reason you would want the red dot mount behind or adjacent to the rear of the primary optic is so it isn't blocking the ejection port. You need to have the secondary sight behind or in front of the ejection port, never right next to it or blocking it in any way.

The mount linked above that clamps around the scope could be rotated so it puts the dot closer to the bore. Having to move your head or change you cheek position on the stock is ALWAYS a total loser proposition. It may look cool to have the red dot riding high, but it's also the sloooooowwwww way to do it
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Old 01-05-2011, 8:47 AM
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This UAG rail looks good for people who want to go the cheap route, only $23. Looks like you can rotate it however you want.

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Old 01-06-2011, 7:32 PM
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While I'm not a fan of it, Geoff...there's more than a few dead bodies, not Americans, that were on the wrong end of a dot mounted on top of an ACOG.

That said, I use a 45 degree mount from AMS Machine that's served me well for more than a few years. K.I.S.S. and get the Predator Tactical/Burkett mount and call it done.

Rich
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Old 01-06-2011, 10:02 PM
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Agreed, the first thing I recommended was the Burkett setup.

BTW, I didn't say up top doesn't work, I just said it doesn't work as well as 45 degrees
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Old 01-08-2011, 1:18 PM
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Warne has a nice mount as well
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:03 PM
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What do you think of this red dot sight?

http://www.binocularsproshop.com/rif...unt-p-408.html

here is the picture.

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Old 12-31-2013, 12:42 AM
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I have an eotech exps2-0 for sale. It's like brand new. Im asking for 450$! If interested please call me @ (949)939-1895
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Old 12-31-2013, 5:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffLinder View Post
I would suggest taking a look at the 45 degree adapter Matt Burket sells that will mount any red dot right next to the scope right on the rail.

http://www.predatortactical.com/Opti...GEN-2-p37.html

This keeps the dot low and close to the bore so close-up shots have very little Point Of Aim to Point Of Impact offset like you will get with a top mounted red dot that is over 3.5" above the bore.

You get to keep a good cheek weld / head position going with this mounting schema by just canting the rifle to bring the sight to your eye. No prairie-dogging to lift your head way up for the top mounted dot.

Just saying, there are better ways to do this

You can also mount it out on the handguard at 45 degrees and get the dot even closer to the bore and have almost no POA to POI offset at close range.
I concur Sir...or you could go this route..

http://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?...93114&CAT=8279
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Last edited by negolien; 12-31-2013 at 5:12 AM..
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