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  #1  
Old 01-02-2011, 7:40 PM
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Default baffled on 44 mag maximum load for green dot

I'd like some help, and I really don't want any long drawn out self rightous safety lectures about exceeding maximum loads. If you feel you have to preach, please preach elsewhere.

I have a DE 44 mag. The gun works great on factory loads, 220 and 240 grain loads. The recoil is very heavy, but the slide works perfectly. DE's can be fussy, and this one won't work with 185 grain factory loads, even with a fairly heavy load of powder behind them.

I have run up and past the maximum load for green dot with xtreme 240 grain bullets, copper plated. The recoil is just not there, not even CLOSE. I am up to 10.1 grains, and maximum is rated at 9.5 grains for a lead bullet with gas checks. At 9.7 and above the DE will on occasion cycle flawlessly, but its a 70% occurance. In factory loads, its more like 100%, but the recoil is probably a 10 on a ten point scale, and I am at a 6 now at 10.1 grains.

I have a couple of questions.

1. Could the green dot have absorbed moisture in the hopper and degraded its performance that badly? Its been in the hopper for four days. I personally haven't seen this occur before.

2. Could the load be that far off? And if it is I can safely increase by 0.2 grain increments until I match factory strength? The case is just slightly over 1/2 full. When i pull the factory loads they are almost totally full, but the powder is different.

3. Could batch to batch variations of green dot be so inconsistant that I have a weak batch?

I am weighing every charge to insure consistancy. The power is just not there, and the brass and primers show absolutly no sign of over pressure now.

The green dot keg has been open for a year, but is sealed against moisture, there is no off odors, and no red misting. The powder produces expected results in both my 9mm and 45 acp loads with no issues.

I think the printed load data is wrong.
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Old 01-02-2011, 9:03 PM
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Your maximum load with GD is not generating enough recoil to cycle the gun. GD is a fast burning powder and will never make the power you need to cycle your DE. Get a slower powder like 2400 and do over.

Remember, fast burning powders = less recoil. Slow burning powders = more recoil.
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Old 01-02-2011, 9:05 PM
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I wasn't aware that the Desert Eagle was supposed to have lead bullets put through it (even with gas checks) so if you are doing that you could be creating this issue. IIRC, it has a bleed hole for gas in the barrel like an AR-15 and shooting lead can crud up this passage and make the gun non-functional.

Now on to copper plated, these also are NOT the same as copper jacketed and they may also be slewing material into the gas passage.

Also, plated may not deliver the same velocity as a true jacketed projectile. Try a good JHP or FMJ bullet type and try loading a nice dense slow-burning powder like AA9. Green Dot is a fairly fast powder IME and I would not make it my first choice for real palm smackin' heavy bullet .44mag loads.

And as always, take any max load data you find and reduce by 5% minimum and work back up in your gun :-)

BTW, factory 44.mag ammo pretty much uses a copper jacketed bullet, not a copper plated one.

Last edited by GeoffLinder; 01-02-2011 at 9:28 PM.. Reason: Note on factory ammo added and typo removed
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Old 01-02-2011, 9:17 PM
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Green Dot is a poor choice. (Even Bullseye would work better than Green Dot for this application.) You might try 2400, AA#7, Power Pistol, N105, or Ramshot Enforcer.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:19 PM
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Default My Accurate reloading guide from 1994

Has a special section for the Desert Eagle (in the .44 Magnum page at the end)

The lowest weight bullet is 240 grains (you mention 220 grain factory load; this is 1994 remember)...

240 Grain JHP (jacketed in copper and not plated)

Accurate No. 7.......17.3 grains........1224 FPS......CUP 40,000 OAL...1.560

Accurate No. 9.......21.3 grains.........1312FPS......CUP 40,000 OAL...1.560

They have loadings for HEAVIER bullets..250 and 300XTPs ($) but I think the point is a heavy bullet with a proper slow burning powder to get that slide working right.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:16 PM
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Why is green dot a poor choice? Too fast and not enough gas production?

Why would bullseye be better? Its faster with even less gas production? Please explain si I can further my knowledge.

ocean...thanks for the recipes
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Old 01-03-2011, 7:12 AM
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I'll say it again, AA7 or AA9 and yes, green dot is too fast and so is anything in the same burn speed range.
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Old 01-03-2011, 7:15 AM
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Gren dot and Bullseye powders are both very fast powders.. they consume themselves way too fast to give a proper "push" to the bullet and make the slide react in kind. You need slower burning powders to do this. Examples of slower burning powder are AA #7, AA #9, H110, Win 296, Alliant 2400, Hodgdon or IMR 4227, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, HS6 and other slow burning pistol/shotgun powder. Green dot, Bullseye, Red Dot, 700x, AA #2, AA #5, Unique, PB, Americal Select, 231, titegroup, titewad, etc are too fast and don't give the longer burn curve neccesary to make the DE cycle.

I know it can be confusing, and it seems like the fast burners are more economical, but the Desert Eagle was designed with heavy bullets and slow burning powder in mind. If you want to plink, get a revolver that doesn't care WHAT load or powder combination you make up, it WILL shoot everything.. maybe not accurately, but it'll go BANG and a bullet will usually exit the barrel and the next one will go BANG too. There is no way to be economical with the Desert eagle.. it likes to eat ammo that costs a bit more than your general plinking ammo. Jacketed (not plated) bullets and large charges of slow burning powder is what it likes.. I don't know a lot of cast bullet shooters who feed lead to a Desert Eagle.
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Old 01-03-2011, 7:48 AM
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I never had any trouble using 2400 with my DE. I highly recommend it.
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Old 01-03-2011, 9:56 AM
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How about True Blu, I already have 12 pounds of that in the cupboard. Its way slower than green dot and produces a fair amount of gas.

And perhaps I wasn't clear in the OP, when I stated I am using copper plated, lead bullets are a no no in the rifling of a desert eagle barrel. The copper plating also does not "rub" off or foul in any way the desert eagle barrel. I have recovered spent bullets from a phone book I murdered and the rifling marks never got close to the lead. Glocks have similar bullets, and I pushed over 10,000 rounds through a 17 in the last year and saw no instance of fouling other that the occasional slight copper color discoloration you see even from FMJ.

I'll give the tru blu a try, I use it for my 9mm major sti 2011 race gun with great results.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 01-03-2011 at 10:01 AM.. Reason: added more text
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
How about True Blu, I already have 12 pounds of that in the cupboard. Its way slower than green dot and produces a fair amount of gas.

And perhaps I wasn't clear in the OP, when I stated I am using copper plated, lead bullets are a no no in the rifling of a desert eagle barrel. The copper plating also does not "rub" off or foul in any way the desert eagle barrel. I have recovered spent bullets from a phone book I murdered and the rifling marks never got close to the lead. Glocks have similar bullets, and I pushed over 10,000 rounds through a 17 in the last year and saw no instance of fouling other that the occasional slight copper color discoloration you see even from FMJ.

I'll give the tru blu a try, I use it for my 9mm major sti 2011 race gun with great results.
Glad to hear you are not using lead in the DE, that would be bad juju :-(

As far as plated go, I have been of the opinion that they are not as good for pushing to the velocity max and only use them for low-midrange loads.

JHP and FMJ are what is recommended for the DE and that's what I would go with. The DE is a direct gas operated pistol and not at all like a Glock which is delayed blow-back operation. The jury is still out on whether plated bullets shed plating at high velocities. I have seen plating residue build up in pistols with rough barrels and NO, I would not fire-lap a DE to smooth it's barrel LOL

+1 to the recommendation to get a .44mag revolver if you want to build plinking loads that don't cost an arm and a leg.

The DE is an ammo-specific firearm and wants to be fed what it wants, no matter what the cost for components is

Last edited by GeoffLinder; 01-03-2011 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:52 AM
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BTW, Tru Blu is somewhere between AA7 and AA9 in burn rate so it should work a lot better than Green Dot.

Here is the load data sheet from Ramshot. Tru Blu does not have a 220 grain load recipe listed. The 240gr JSP load data suggests 11.9-13.2 grains.

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadg...Load_guide.pdf

As always, I would recommend starting in the middle/lower end of this range and work it up carefully in your pistol.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:53 AM
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Thanks guys, I appreciate all of the help. I sold a SW 629 to buy the DE. I'm not a revolver fan. I will get this gun to work. The DE is much more balanced than the 629 IMHO.

As to plated bullets, when I started running 9mm major loads I switched to Zero fmj bullets for the same fear, flaking of the plated copper at the high velocities as the loads are 20% over max. I tried plated for kicks in the last 300 rounds and couldn't see any substantial differences in the barrel with a 3x boroscope after shooting the plated bullets. if there is fouling it has to be in the mircon level.

However, plated and Zero (or Montana Golden bullets) FMJ's are about the same price, so I have switched to FMJ's just to be safe on my high velocity pistol rounds. I had the xtreme plated 44 mag bullets left over from the 629, and thats all I had, so I used them!

Now the question is what to do with 12 pounds of green dot which I also have and use on 9mm, 40sw and 45 acp. 12 pounds is a lot of powder for pistols unless your running a militia.
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Old 01-03-2011, 1:20 PM
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How is having 12 pounds of Green Dot a problem? It'll work fine in most non-magnum pistol cartridges. So you're GTG for awhile.

Keep Plated Bullets under ~1200fps.

The DE is a gas operated semi-auto; as such needs a slower burning powder that will maintain enough pressure at the gas port to cycle the action. As previously stated Green Dot is too fast (does not maintain pressure long enough). My WAG would be the fastest powders I would consider for a DE are: Blue Dot, AA9, with 2400 being a good standby. Most 44Mag loads listed in reloading manuals are invariably for Revolvers, as such have no pressure curve to meet.
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Old 01-03-2011, 8:10 PM
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ok, ordered 1000 240 grain fmj sp from Montana gold, drained the green dot from the powder hopper, and i will dial in 11.9 grains to start with tru-blu

Thanks for the help fellas.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 01-03-2011 at 8:13 PM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:11 PM
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OK - haven't read every word but you have to use something that will make gas for the piston.

IMR-4227 will work.
H110 is even better and will make a bigger boom too.
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:00 PM
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Ran the test today with some Ramshot Tru-Blue and 240 grain JHP's.

The gun worked flawlessly from 12.8 grains to 13.3 grains. Even at the 13.3 grains, which is 2% over max, the recoil was very mild, and there was no muzzle flash. I also tried some magtech factory loads, 220 grain...they worked great too but with a lot more recoil and a LOT more flash! I kind of love the flash!!

Thanks fellas for getting me lined up. I bought some H110 to test too...maybe I will find my ummph and flash with that powder.

I will get chrony values on these loads to verify performance in a few weeks.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 01-05-2011 at 10:04 PM.. Reason: spelling and grammer
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:30 PM
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You may have to try some even slower powders to get the full oomph out of your reloads. I'll bet the powder was fully burned before the bullet was even very far down the barrel. You need to find a powder that is slow enough to be still burning when the bullet gets near the muzzle. That'll get you the flash and bang you are looking for

Don't forget to put some different bullet weights of factory ammo over the chrono too. This will give you some good comparison data points.

You will find the chrono very helpful in getting a handle on creating specific performance levels in your reloads.

One very important thing to remember, if you are at or over listed max load and you have not achieved the same velocity as published you should probably think twice before pushing on.
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Old 01-06-2011, 4:31 PM
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Generally, if you want flash, you need to load a high nitro powder behind a lighter bullet.. the lighter bullet usually doesn't have enough weight and resistance to fully consume the powder, hence the flash.. Blue Dot has always been known to be in the vicinity of high Nitro content.. another one I just thought of is Lil'gun.. it is similar to H110 but newer.. I made up some really nice loads for my 41 magnum.. 235 gr bullet at 1325 fps out of a 7.5" tubed Model 657. It's a tad snappy but still controllable. I'd suspect that your DE would like Lil'gun also.
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Old 01-06-2011, 6:08 PM
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A chrony is really the only way to know what is happening to your loads! I also like to run strings on factory ammo in my 223 and witness the variable velocities. I used to think factory ammo would always be superiour to my own loads, but that simply is not true.

I do like the lighter recoil of the tru blue loads over the factory loads. If the chrony data comes back close on velocities I will stay with the tru blue. Tru blue also meters much better than red dot or a stock powder in my 550.
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Old 01-11-2011, 9:56 PM
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I tried H110. What a crazy powder!! A lot of gas, lots of flame, and the gun worked but not that well at higher loads, it worked best at 23 grains, but not at all at 24 grains, and kind of at 23.5

I like the tru blue as it's less distracting noise and flame wise, but the gun prefers H110 I think.

I'm going to chrony all of the loads this weekend and post them in this thread.

Thanks again for the info.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 01-15-2011 at 8:32 AM.. Reason: truth
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Old 01-15-2011, 8:35 AM
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At 23.5 grains the case didn't pull back from the chamber wall before the gun woudl try to cycle, and extraction was an issue. You could see major imprints of the extractor ont he rim where it had clawed away at the rim, but finally slipped off, leaving the case in the chamber. Repeated firings as the max load would I think lead to extractor failure, not to mention messed up cases.

I am now using 23 grains of H110 with a 240 grain Montana gold soft point jacketed bullet.. This set up seems to work best for me and my Desert Eagle VII.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 01-15-2011 at 8:42 AM.. Reason: changed wording in attempt to clarify issue
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Old 03-24-2011, 9:23 AM
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The problem wasn't the loads, it was a weak extractor spring. I put in the new plastic extractor spring (blob) and the DE now eats anything as long as its 200 grain or more....green dot, red dot, 2400, H110, AA#9, True Blue...90% loads, 80% loads, 100% loads....I like the H110 and Win 296 for the loud bang and flames, but for accuracy and less recoil AA #9 and true blue are the way to go.
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