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  #1  
Old 01-01-2011, 8:51 PM
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Default German Walther P1 ....

...... is now C & R eligible.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...+P1+9mm+Pistol

I don't know if AIM ships to CA, but I suppose someone who has them will. I kind of like the alloy frame. Hmmm.
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  #2  
Old 01-01-2011, 9:25 PM
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If I am not mistaken C&R handguns still have to be DROSd per CA law. I'm not 100% sure on that so we'll wait until another member chimes in. No reason not to get a P1 though!
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:58 PM
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Yep, they have to be sent to an FFL01 and DROS'd
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:05 AM
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I want one.... stupid CA.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:04 AM
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I recently saw a reference to these and am counting my shekels to get ready to buy one. SOG has russion capture P-38's (mismatched and renumbered) for 389 or so.

I'm still deciding between P1 (alloy frame) and P38 (steel frame).

P1 is in the lead, though.

I have a C&R, and am irked at the 01 requirement for the nanny state, but I don't think that's going to stop ME.
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Old 01-02-2011, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WW2Buff View Post
If I am not mistaken C&R handguns still have to be DROSd per CA law. I'm not 100% sure on that so we'll wait until another member chimes in. No reason not to get a P1 though!
They do and of course have to go through a Type 01 FFL - but now being C & R they are roster exempt and having a C & R FFL can be bought "cash & carry" when out of state.
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Old 01-02-2011, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
They do and of course have to go through a Type 01 FFL - but now being C & R they are roster exempt and having a C & R FFL can be bought "cash & carry" when out of state.
So if you have an 03 FFL CR license you can drive to Reno, by the pistol cash and carry then drive it in to a califrnia ffl for dros?
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Old 01-02-2011, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gotshotgun? View Post
So if you have an 03 FFL CR license you can drive to Reno, by the pistol cash and carry then drive it in to a califrnia ffl for dros?
If you have a C&R FFL you drive to Reno, buy as many C&R pistols as you want cash and carry, drive them back to California to your home and then register them by mail for $19 each. No need to take them to a California dealer or DROS them.
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Old 01-02-2011, 3:09 PM
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If you have a C&R FFL you drive to Reno, buy as many C&R pistols as you want cash and carry, drive them back to California to your home and then register them by mail for $19 each. No need to take them to a California dealer or DROS them.
Thanks for making a CR noobs day! My paperwork is in the mail and I can't wait!
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Old 01-02-2011, 5:00 PM
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Has anyone been able to verify this with ATF? I still can't seem to find anything on it.
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Old 01-02-2011, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Has anyone been able to verify this with ATF? I still can't seem to find anything on it.
verify what, exactly?

aim will ship the pistol to your ffl, where you can dros it. as a c&r, it is roster exempt. or, you may purchase one out of state using your c&r ffl, then voluntarily(or not so voluntarily, but thats what it's called) register it with caldoj. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf
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Old 01-02-2011, 5:25 PM
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As a P1 owner I say grab these great prices while you can. I love mine and even though now that it's 1/2 the price it was before being C and R eligible, it's a wonderful pistol and easy to rack and shoot. Get one soon is my feeling! And get lots of magazines.
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  #13  
Old 01-02-2011, 5:46 PM
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The main difference now that the Walther P1 is on the C&R list is, that now you can buy from an FFL01 or have shipped to a FFL01 any P1 that you find regardless of which company imported it. Previously, only the Walther P1's imported by PW Arms are on the CA Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, so you had to check the importer markings on the pistol before it could be shipped to CA.

Here's mine. It is a real joy to shoot.

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Old 01-02-2011, 6:36 PM
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^^^
This would include P1s imported by Interarms, yes?
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2011, 7:03 PM
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Has anyone been able to verify that they are C&R? The only place that is saying they are is Aim Surplus. I haven't seen anything from ATF. Not that it matters for me I can just ship one to me Nevada license. But, for other people it's not that easy. There are a lot of 01 FFL&s in California that won't just take Aim's word. Just ask all those people that tried to order a Romanian Tokarev from J&G Sales with no luck because ATF hasn't posted a definitive statement on them being C&R Eligible and they can't provided proof that they are 50 years old.
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Old 01-02-2011, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
^^^
This would include P1s imported by Interarms, yes?
It's actually a PW Arms import. Had it about 3.5 years now. There used to be two P1 importers listed on the roster, but at some point one has dropped off the roster, so if I remember correctly that has to be Interarms.
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Old 01-02-2011, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Has anyone been able to verify that they are C&R? The only place that is saying they are is Aim Surplus. I haven't seen anything from ATF. Not that it matters for me I can just ship one to me Nevada license. But, for other people it's not that easy. There are a lot of 01 FFL&s in California that won't just take Aim's word. Just ask all those people that tried to order a Romanian Tokarev from J&G Sales with no luck because ATF hasn't posted a definitive statement on them being C&R Eligible and they can't provided proof that they are 50 years old.
Find out the importer and contact them directly. AIM should be able to tell you who that is. Also, Royal Tiger Imports is also advertising them as C&R.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:07 AM
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If you have a C&R FFL you drive to Reno, buy as many C&R pistols as you want cash and carry, drive them back to California to your home and then register them by mail for $19 each. No need to take them to a California dealer or DROS them.
That's legal but the Nevada dealer / seller might not be convinced of it!
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  #19  
Old 01-03-2011, 6:06 PM
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That's legal but the Nevada dealer / seller might not be convinced of it!
Sure they would. That's what your; if you have one, C&R is intended for. So you could buy C&R guns in other states and bring them home. You can also use it to mail order guns too.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Has anyone been able to verify that they are C&R? The only place that is saying they are is Aim Surplus. I haven't seen anything from ATF. Not that it matters for me I can just ship one to me Nevada license. But, for other people it's not that easy. There are a lot of 01 FFL&s in California that won't just take Aim's word. Just ask all those people that tried to order a Romanian Tokarev from J&G Sales with no luck because ATF hasn't posted a definitive statement on them being C&R Eligible and they can't provided proof that they are 50 years old.
Why would AIM lie? Same thing with the Yugo tokarevs that SOG and J&G were selling? It is not just the CA market that these guys are selling to. The big dealers would be illegally shipping all kinds of handguns to FFL03's all over the country. Do you really think they want to go out of business by sending non-C&R guns to people all over America?

The guns are C&R's. Stop overthinking it. And stop believing the FUD that C&R eligible means that some guns may be > 50 years old and possibly C&R. C&R eligible means that it can be purchased with a FFL03 (of course not shipped directly to CA residents due to the stupid laws). You need to find a FFL who is not a crybaby and will accept C&R guns and have him/her/them receive the pistol for you.

Getting any info out of the ATF is going to be next to impossible. They update the C&R list very irregularly.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:58 PM
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Better yet, if you have a C&R FFL and a COE, you don't have to wait the 10 days and walk with the gun as soon as the DROS is sent through........!!!!
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Old 01-04-2011, 1:22 AM
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Better yet, if you have a C&R FFL and a COE, you don't have to wait the 10 days and walk with the gun as soon as the DROS is sent through........!!!!
I believe that only applies to handguns that are 50 years or older, so the P1,while being a C&R, still needs the 10day wait.
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Old 01-04-2011, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by darkest2000 View Post
I believe that only applies to handguns that are 50 years or older, so the P1,while being a C&R, still needs the 10day wait.


12078 Ca Penal Code.
(t) (1) The waiting periods described in Sections 12071 and 12072
shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm
that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27
of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to
a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44
(commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code
and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current
certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of
Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery,
sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall
transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic
report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c)
of Section 12077.


Don't see anything about 50 years or older in there.
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Old 01-04-2011, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Sure they would. That's what your; if you have one, C&R is intended for. So you could buy C&R guns in other states and bring them home. You can also use it to mail order guns too.
Really, that may be what the C&R is for, but there are many Nevada dealers that won't even talk to you if your from CA, they could care less if you have a 03 FFL. Their business, their rules.
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  #25  
Old 01-04-2011, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by darkest2000 View Post
I believe that only applies to handguns that are 50 years or older, so the P1,while being a C&R, still needs the 10day wait.
Handguns only need to be C&R for the C&R waiting period exemption.
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Old 01-04-2011, 7:58 PM
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That is a beautiful gun !!!!!!

I really want one.
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Old 01-05-2011, 5:30 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong folks....but any gun needs to be 50 years or Older or on the BATFE C&R Roster.

Here is ATF's Q&A Page answer:

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
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Old 01-05-2011, 6:26 PM
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Bigthaiboy,
That is a nice picture.
The gun you have has a couple of small differences from most that I have seen. It has Kal 9mm rather than Cal 9mm, and the sides of the slide come up higher and cover the edges of the rear of the barrel. Small differences, but interesting.
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Old 01-05-2011, 6:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
Really, that may be what the C&R is for, but there are many Nevada dealers that won't even talk to you if your from CA, they could care less if you have a 03 FFL. Their business, their rules.
Easy, don't buy from those dealers.
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Old 01-05-2011, 6:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehummerguy View Post
Correct me if I am wrong folks....but any gun needs to be 50 years or Older or on the BATFE C&R Roster.

Here is ATF's Q&A Page answer:

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
Sorry but you are wrong and need to be corrected. Being 50+ years old is one way for a gun to be C&R. Another way is to be recognized by a museum and therefore getting C&R status.

I'm attaching this CZ82 letter that was posted on Calguns a few years back. Obviously the CZ is not 50 years old (not even 30) but it is C&R due to #2 above.

You guys need to get better FFL01's to receive these guns for you.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CZ82.pdf (117.4 KB, 15 views)
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Old 01-05-2011, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceDay View Post
Why would AIM lie? Same thing with the Yugo tokarevs that SOG and J&G were selling? It is not just the CA market that these guys are selling to. The big dealers would be illegally shipping all kinds of handguns to FFL03's all over the country. Do you really think they want to go out of business by sending non-C&R guns to people all over America?

The guns are C&R's. Stop overthinking it. And stop believing the FUD that C&R eligible means that some guns may be > 50 years old and possibly C&R. C&R eligible means that it can be purchased with a FFL03 (of course not shipped directly to CA residents due to the stupid laws). You need to find a FFL who is not a crybaby and will accept C&R guns and have him/her/them receive the pistol for you.

Getting any info out of the ATF is going to be next to impossible. They update the C&R list very irregularly.
I agree with you. Those dealers won't sell or do something that will get themselves in trouble.

I don't need to find a 01 dealer that knows what is going on and is not a crybaby.

I have TWO 03 C&R FFL's; one in California and one in Nevada, so that I can just buy what ever C&R I want and ship it to myself with no more 01 dealers.

But, other people are not as lucky as I am and need to prove to some California 01 dealers these things and with out proof some Californians are SOL. That is why I wanted to know if anyone has seen anything from BATF.
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Old 01-05-2011, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceDay View Post
Sorry but you are wrong and need to be corrected. Being 50+ years old is one way for a gun to be C&R. Another way is to be recognized by a museum and therefore getting C&R status.

I'm attaching this CZ82 letter that was posted on Calguns a few years back. Obviously the CZ is not 50 years old (not even 30) but it is C&R due to #2 above.

You guys need to get better FFL01's to receive these guns for you.
That's exactly the type of info I am wondering about on the P-1.
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Old 01-05-2011, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehummerguy View Post
Correct me if I am wrong folks....but any gun needs to be 50 years or Older or on the BATFE C&R Roster.

Here is ATF's Q&A Page answer:

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

ATF also has a process for certifying a less than 50 year old firearm as C & R eligible. Some are obvious - Lindbergh's revolver for example. I've no idea how they do it on others - 2nd Generation Colt SAAs, Smith 53 and all pre-64 Winchester 94s are on it as are quite a few others. I can't figure out their rhyme or reason though. Fine that the Smith 53 is on it, but shouldn't the Smith 58 be there also.

The book is worth a read, you'll do alot of "I can get that!?"
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Old 01-05-2011, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jmlivingston View Post
Find out the importer and contact them directly. AIM should be able to tell you who that is. Also, Royal Tiger Imports is also advertising them as C&R.
Quote:
Originally Posted by morrcarr67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlivingston View Post
Find out the importer and contact them directly. AIM should be able to tell you who that is. Also, Royal Tiger Imports is also advertising them as C&R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceDay View Post
Sorry but you are wrong and need to be corrected. Being 50+ years old is one way for a gun to be C&R. Another way is to be recognized by a museum and therefore getting C&R status.

I'm attaching this CZ82 letter that was posted on Calguns a few years back. Obviously the CZ is not 50 years old (not even 30) but it is C&R due to #2 above.

You guys need to get better FFL01's to receive these guns for you.
That's exactly the type of info I am wondering about on the P-1.

As I said, find out the importer and contact them directly. When the CZ82 first hit the list nobody had any documentation on it until I received that PDF referenced by RaceDay from PW Arms and published it here. If you want a P1 badly enough do the legwork for it and it'll be all that much more rewarding when you finally get it in your hands. Otherwise you'll just have to wait until they find their way into California and dealers start receiving them as C&R's. No reputable dealer is going to transfer one to you on your say-so that it's a Curio, it's going to take paperwork.

John
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Old 01-05-2011, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jmlivingston View Post
As I said, find out the importer and contact them directly. When the CZ82 first hit the list nobody had any documentation on it until I received that PDF referenced by RaceDay from PW Arms and published it here. If you want a P1 badly enough do the legwork for it and it'll be all that much more rewarding when you finally get it in your hands. Otherwise you'll just have to wait until they find their way into California and dealers start receiving them as C&R's. No reputable dealer is going to transfer one to you on your say-so that it's a Curio, it's going to take paperwork.

John
Good point. The importers have to have some sort of C&R documentation so if the FFL is being a real stickler then contact the importer and get their proof.

Also, kudos to John for the Cz82 letter. That was a pistol that I really, really wanted.
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  #36  
Old 01-06-2011, 8:11 AM
Geodetic Geodetic is offline
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How can I prove to an FFL that a firearm is a curio and relic? The first question I always get is "is it on the roster?"
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  #37  
Old 01-06-2011, 10:41 AM
dfletcher dfletcher is offline
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Originally Posted by Geodetic View Post
How can I prove to an FFL that a firearm is a curio and relic? The first question I always get is "is it on the roster?"

Just say "roster - we don't need no stinking roster ...."

Two things - first you have to show them CA law that exempts C & Rs. If the model hasn't been made in 50 years old that's pretty easy. Then usually a printout from the ATF's C & R book works to show the gun is qualified if it's under 50 years old.

The problems that come up usually involve "under 50 years old" guns that are listed. For example, the Colt OM manufactured from 1953 to 1969 is listed as C & R eligible - unfortunately some FFLs take the approach that means only 1953 to 1959 versions, not 1961, 62 and such. Two ways to approach it - first, since a +50 year old gun (in original condition) is C & R by virtue of age, why bother to list the dates at all? Second, show them the Smith Model 53 - I think it came out in '62 or '63 - these are C & R and there are no +50 Model 53s out there, same thing applies to 2nd Generation Colt SAAs.

The ones that are difficult are guns - like the Smith 10 or Colt Cobra, Detective Special - that are not specifically listed. A +50 would be C & R, a -50 would not be C & R. I guess that's when you break out the Smith DOM & serial number book or Proofhouse.com printout.
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  #38  
Old 01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
Geodetic Geodetic is offline
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I haven't found anything on the BATF website that shows the P1's are curio and relic. I ordered a P1 and it is being sent to my FFL. Could someone point me in the right direction as far printing some documentation? Thank You
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  #39  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:00 AM
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bigthaiboy bigthaiboy is offline
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Originally Posted by westcoast362 View Post
Bigthaiboy,
That is a nice picture.
The gun you have has a couple of small differences from most that I have seen. It has Kal 9mm rather than Cal 9mm, and the sides of the slide come up higher and cover the edges of the rear of the barrel. Small differences, but interesting.

Interesting. I noticed the 60's manufactured P1/ P38's are marked with Cal 9mm, but 70's and 80's made P1's are marked with the Kal 9mm.
Mine was manufactured in 1977.
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  #40  
Old 01-06-2011, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Geodetic View Post
I haven't found anything on the BATF website that shows the P1's are curio and relic. I ordered a P1 and it is being sent to my FFL. Could someone point me in the right direction as far printing some documentation? Thank You
It depends how picky your FFL is. If AIM says it is C&R and your FFL is good with seeing it on the website, then you are done. If they want a letter or other proof, then you'll probably be calling AIM and/or the importer for additional proof. Good luck!

You mgiht also try Royal Tiger. They've been working on importing C&R P1's since last October or so.
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