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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:33 PM
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Default ca legal?--Taurus Rossi Circuit Judge 45 410

it's a rifle
local shops say not legal
my other good local shop is closed
pretty sure it's legal here
I want one
link to gun
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=206552783


  #2  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:41 PM
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its a revolving cylinder shotgun

the law would see it the same as a street sweeper
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:46 PM
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it's a 5 shot can we put wood dowls in 4 holes and refester as 1 shot, dros it & covert to 5 shot kinda like single shot ar15 pistols, lol
  #4  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
it's a 5 shot can we put wood dowls in 4 holes and refester as 1 shot, dros it & covert to 5 shot kinda like single shot ar15 pistols, lol
I dont think so.

some1 want to run it through the mill and see if someone missed a way to own one?
  #5  
Old 12-29-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
it's a 5 shot can we put wood dowls in 4 holes and refester as 1 shot, dros it & covert to 5 shot kinda like single shot ar15 pistols, lol
nice try... not so much though
  #6  
Old 12-29-2010, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
its a revolving cylinder shotgun

the law would see it the same as a street sweeper
bingo. its an AW.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
it's a 5 shot can we put wood dowls in 4 holes and refester as 1 shot, dros it & covert to 5 shot kinda like single shot ar15 pistols, lol
it might be legal if those 4 holes were blocked with something more secure that a wooden dowel, it might pass muster, but once you remove the dowels, you've manufactured an AW, no bueno.

The AR-pistol scenario is different since it is legal as both a single-shot pistol and as a 10-shot fixed mag pistol. the signle-shot deal is so that it initially complies with the roster. There is no requirement that it stay roster-compliant, but it still can't become an AW afterwards.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2010, 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
bingo. its an AW.


.
I thought the sweeper was a fed ban, if revolving cylinder is fed ban, then how is this gun sold anywhere?????????
  #8  
Old 12-29-2010, 1:35 PM
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nice try... not so much though
ya thx, you are a big help
I'll just ask you on any questions I have
  #9  
Old 12-29-2010, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 12voltguy View Post
I thought the sweeper was a fed ban, if revolving cylinder is fed ban, then how is this gun sold anywhere?????????
the street sweeper was specifically banned federally, declared to be a DD, but there is no federal ban on all revolving cylinder shotguns. but CA does have a ban on all revolving cylinder shotguns, considering them to be AWs.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the street sweeper was specifically banned federally, declared to be a DD, but there is no federal ban on all revolving cylinder shotguns. but CA does have a ban on all revolving cylinder shotguns, considering them to be AWs.
Thank you
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  #11  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:37 PM
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wait a second, this thing shoots .45 long colt if its loaded with that ammo then wouldn't it be rifle then? or does it actually have to have rifling to be a rifle.
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  #12  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:42 PM
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wait a second, this thing shoots .45 long colt if its loaded with that ammo then wouldn't it be rifle then? or does it actually have to have rifling to be a rifle.
CA considers it a shotgun, same as the Judge pistol. Even perm welding four chambers shut, it would still have a revolving cylinder. You would have to keep it from revolving somehow, but... why?
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  #13  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pyro3k2 View Post
wait a second, this thing shoots .45 long colt if its loaded with that ammo then wouldn't it be rifle then? or does it actually have to have rifling to be a rifle.
the .45LC/.410 version comes with a rifled barrel, and would definition meet the definition of a rifle, but might not meet the definitiion of a shotgun.

Quote:
12020(c)(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
so, the .45LC/.410 version might not fall under the shotgun defintion which would trigger a shotgun AW classification.

but the .410-only version comes with a smooth bore and would be a shotgun AW.
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  #14  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pyro3k2 View Post
wait a second, this thing shoots .45 long colt if its loaded with that ammo then wouldn't it be rifle then? or does it actually have to have rifling to be a rifle.

If it's designated to shoot shot shells, then it's a shotgun. By your logic, we could have a Taurus Judge (pistol) by only shooting .45LC in it. Unfortunately, it is designated as .45LC/.410, so California automatically considers it a shotgun.
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Old 12-29-2010, 8:46 PM
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Thank you
we must have a law againest anything fun....
I hate it when that happens !!!
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  #16  
Old 12-29-2010, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
so, the .45LC/.410 version might not fall under the shotgun defintion which would trigger a shotgun AW classification.

but the .410-only version comes with a smooth bore and would be a shotgun AW.
You are right, the ad does say "rifled bore"... also it has a choke? Is that part of the bore? I wonder what kind of weird pattern i makes? Maybe the choke is what puts the shot into a tight pattern? And also triggers the AW status???

Also, what is the overall length?
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  #17  
Old 12-29-2010, 9:03 PM
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well if you get the 2.5 rifled .45 long colt then it was designed not to shoot the 3inch .410 shotshell hence the shorter cylinder. It would technically make it a revolving rifle. As far as only shooting .45lc out of judge I can see where my logic was flawed on that. But ultimately I think they only thing that will clear the 2.5inch rifled version of this gun would be a approval letters from both the ATF and the CA Doj.
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2010, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackwater OPS View Post
You are right, the ad does say "rifled bore"... also it has a choke? Is that part of the bore? I wonder what kind of weird pattern i makes? Maybe the choke is what puts the shot into a tight pattern? And also triggers the AW status???

Also, what is the overall length?
I haven't seen what the choke looks like on the circuit judge, but I guessing that it might have a rifle pattern of some sort to stop the shot charge from rotating, maybe straight cut grooves. but if it isn't smoothbore, then that shouldnt trigger a shotgun definition.


I'm gonna assume that it is over 26" OAL since they want tobe able to sell them without a tax stamp.
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2010, 9:38 PM
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how this gun could be considered an AW just blows me away.what moron made this ridiculous classification . a semi auto shotgun holds as many rounds and can fire 3 times as fast
  #20  
Old 12-29-2010, 10:07 PM
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how this gun could be considered an AW just blows me away.what moron made this ridiculous classification
that is because they were trying to ban this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker , and the definition covers the smoothbore circuit judge as well.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by arsilva32 View Post
how this gun could be considered an AW just blows me away.what moron made this ridiculous classification . a semi auto shotgun holds as many rounds and can fire 3 times as fast
Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
that is because they were trying to ban this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker , and the definition covers the smoothbore circuit judge as well.
that 100% shows law makers don't know what they are doing, they just do it because they can, not for a good reason, but for no reason.
They need to look at what they are doing
  #22  
Old 01-11-2011, 11:48 AM
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PC 12020.21

(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed
or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the
energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a
smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger.
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Simple, just get the rifled long barreled version.
  #23  
Old 01-11-2011, 12:01 PM
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Since the Judge isn't fired from the shoulder, how is it a shotgun?
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
Since the Judge isn't fired from the shoulder, how is it a shotgun?
the Judge isn't a shotgun, but the CIRCUIT Judge IS a shotgun, at least the .410-only smoothbore version is. The rifled .45LC/.410 Circuit Judge version should not be considered a shotgun, since it has a rifled bore, but that hasn't been legally decided AFAIK.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 01-11-2011 at 12:41 PM.. Reason: clarifed
  #25  
Old 01-11-2011, 12:32 PM
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A pistol that can shoot a shotgun shell in California is a Short Barreled Shotgun. It's illegal.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
The rifled .45LC/.410 Circuit Judge version might not be a shotgun, since it has a rifled bore.
I don't see the might. "Shotgun" is clearly defined as having a smooth bore. There is no other definition of "shotgun", that I know of.
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post
A pistol that can shoot a shotgun shell in California is a Short Barreled Shotgun. It's illegal.
we know this. we aren't talking about the Judge, we are talking about the CIRCUIT Judge, which isn't an SBS, but might be an AW, depending on which version of the Circuit Judge you have.
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  #28  
Old 01-11-2011, 12:40 PM
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I don't see the might. "Shotgun" is clearly defined as having a smooth bore. There is no other definition of "shotgun", that I know of.
I should have said "should not be a shotgun" not "might not be a shotgun", my bad.

I do plan on talking with Taurus/Rossi at SHOT next week to see if they got any official feedback from CADOJ whether or not either version would be considered an AW.
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  #29  
Old 01-11-2011, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
we know this. we aren't talking about the Judge, we are talking about the CIRCUIT Judge, which isn't an SBS, but might be an AW, depending on which version of the Circuit Judge you have.
I think he was answering post #23 question, just guessing.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I should have said "should not be a shotgun" not "might not be a shotgun", my bad.

I do plan on talking with Taurus/Rossi at SHOT next week to see if they got any official feedback from CADOJ whether or not either version would be considered an AW.
So, if it's not a shotgun, how could it be an AW? What would a 16" non pg, non magfed rifle trigger in the AW catagory?
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gozuki View Post
So, if it's not a shotgun, how could it be an AW? What would a 16" non pg, non magfed rifle trigger in the AW catagory?
right, if it isn't a shotgun, then it shouldn't trigger any Shotgun AW prohibtions. so, the rifled-barrel version (the .45LC/.410 version) may not be considered an AW. As a non-sem-auto rifle, it wouldn't trigger any rifle AW prohibitions.


but, the .410-only version (which was advertised to have a smoothbore barrel) would be considered a shotgun, and therefore be a shotgun AW.\

I mentioned this before last year in this thread. And I will try to talk to Taurus/Rossi at SHOT to see if they got any official feedback from CADOJ on the matter.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:34 PM
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I just don't see what the issue is. "May not" "shouldn't be"...

The rifled version is not a "shotgun" as defined by the State of California. It's not an AW. It's a cylindered rifle. I don't want one, but I'd get one without any qualms if I did.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
legally decided .
Not to beat this horse, but what is there to decide. The ones who make the rules said it must be a "smooth bore" to be a "shotgun". The rifled version, again by definition, is not "smooth bored", so it can not be a "shotgun".

Not "may not" or "should not", it can not be a "shotgun".

Last edited by gozuki; 01-11-2011 at 2:39 PM.. Reason: spelling error
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by From the Rossi website
MIAMI - Rossi is excited to introduce the new Taurus Circuit Judge, taking the most overwhelmingly successful revolver in recent history and extending its range for great hunting and shooting. This shotgun/rifle crossover offers the ability to shoot .410 gauge 3-inch magnum shotshells, .410 2.5-inch shotshells or .45 Colt ammunition in any order, without changing barrels.

http://www.rossiusa.com/news-detail.cfm?newsID=25
It's a shotgun with a revolving cylinder. It would be considered an AW by the state.

Buy a sample and have it sent to DOJ for an opinion letter if it means that much to you.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:39 PM
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Their rules, I just play by 'em.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:42 PM
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It's a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
Not according to California. I can advertise my finger as a "shotgun", but if it doesn't meet California's own definition, it's not.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:44 PM
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unfortunately, we are assuming that the definition of shotgun that is in 12020 would be the same definition of shotgun that would be used in court if you were charged with a 12276.1 violation.

look at the definition of rifle and shotgun.

Quote:
12020(c)(20) As used in this section, a "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
those definitinon state that they apply to "this section", which is 12020. So, it could be argued that the defintion of shotgun in 12020 does not apply to a 12276.1 violation. It has been opined by some of The Right People that that definition should apply chapterwide since there are no other codified definitions. but that is just an opinion, and the CALIFORNIA LAW REVISION COMMISSION suggested that the definition of shotgun be clarified when they did the re-write of the PC that goes into effect in 2012.


Quote:
FUTURE LEGISLATIVE ATTENTION
In conducting this strictly nonsubstantive study, the Commission identified a
number of minor problems within Title 2 of Part 4 of the Penal Code, which could
not be addressed without potentially raising concerns about a substantive change.
Those issues are listed here. As far as the Commission is aware, this list consists
of relatively noncontroversial clean-up issues, not issues involving substantial
controversy. If any of the issues listed below appears likely to involve substantial
controversy, please notify the Commission.
(1) Consider whether to expand the following definitions to the entirety of new
Part 6 of the Penal Code:

“Application to purchase”1
“Assault weapon” 2
“Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds”3
“Deadly weapon”4
“Destructive device”5
“Explosive”6
“Firearm safety device”7
“Licensed premises”8
“Locked container”9
“Rifle”10
“Semiautomatic pistol”11
“Short-barreled rifle”12
“Short-barreled shotgun”13
“Shotgun”14
“Silencer”15
because of that lack of a specific defintion of "shotgun" as it applies to 12276.1, I won't speak in absolutes to as whether a rifle-bored Circuit Judge would be considered a shotgun even though it doesn't have a smooth-bore.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 01-11-2011 at 2:46 PM..
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gozuki View Post
Not according to California. I can advertise my finger as a "shotgun", but if it doesn't meet California's own definition, it's not.
Buy one and a pistol that can shoot .410 out of a rifled barrel. Be the test case. Then we'll know for sure.

EDIT: Make sure you have one of those bump-fire stocks on your AR as well. I think some people are interested to what might happen if they decide they don't like it.
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Old 01-11-2011, 2:51 PM
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Buy one and a pistol that can shoot .410 out of a rifled barrel. Be the test case. Then we'll know for sure.
remember that the definition of SBS in CA does not require that the firearm first be a shotgun, or have a smooth-bore, just that it has a barrel <18" and/or an OAL <26" and that it can shoot a fixed shotgun-shell. That is what nails the Judge as an SBS. And those definitions of SBS are in 12020, and related to a 12020 violation


But the circuit judge question deals on if both versions are considered shotguns in order to trigger shotgun AW violations. And there is no definiton of shotgun that directly covers a 12276.1 violation.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 01-11-2011 at 2:54 PM..
  #40  
Old 01-11-2011, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
remember that the definition of SBS in CA does not require that the firearm first be a shotgun, or have a smooth-bore, just that it has a barrel <18" and/or an OAL <26" and that it can shoot a fixed shotgun-shell. That is what nails the Judge as an SBS. And those definitions of SBS are in 12020, and related to a 12020 violation


But the circuit judge question deals on if both versions are considered shotguns in order to trigger shotgun AW violations. And there is no definiton of shotgun that directly covers a 12276.1 violation.
I know what the law says.

Even from Rossi's own literature... it's not a rifle. It's a rifled barrel shotgun.

http://www.rossiusa.com/pdf/rossi_ad_circuitjudge.pdf

Yes, it doesn't quite fit California law. Be the test case.
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