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  #1  
Old 12-26-2010, 4:53 PM
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Default Front Sight Diamond Membership deals - what's the catch?

So I know people are offering/selling a life-time Diamond membership at Front Sight (is it really life-time?) for a good price right now. But my question is, does it still offer the same benefits as what other Diamond members get when they paid full price for their membership, as shown here? http://www.frontsight.com/diamond-membership.asp Is there a catch here that I'm missing? I always here about Piazza trying to recruit or sell you on memberships, as if it were a cult of some type (not saying that it is, but I always read mixed opinions about FS courses).


- Are there any hidden fees? Anything in a contract that holds you to doing something a certain amount of times, or having to pay something more later on?

- Can you attend ANY course held at FS free of charge, as many times as you want to go, for the rest of your life? What's the catch here for such a low price ? ($250)?

- Does it really guarantee you placement into ANY course with 2 weeks' advance enrollment? So if you want to take a course that's at least 2 weeks out, you can enroll and they'll put you into it, even if the class is already full?

- Do you really get 40% savings on ANY products purchased from FS Pro Shop, from their Gunsmith, or from their Armory? Does this include 40% savings on ammo purchased?

- How easy was it to reserve a private First Family range to use? Any issues with doing this?

- If your name also etched into the First Family Monument? This doesn't really matter to me, but I was just curious.

- What "gifts" do they give to you when you become a Diamond "life-time" member at Front Sight? Do they give you a First Family card and First Family hat? I don't expect them to give out any of the free guns or Rolex watch for those paying $250 for the membership, but I was just wondering what (if any) do they throw in and give to the new member.



Are there any other tricks or words of caution for these Diamond membership deals going on? It just sounds too good to be true, and I'm very interested in wanting to get one, but just wanted to make sure that you do get the same benefits (unlimited free courses, anytime you want, as may times as you want). Because I'd really like to train at Front Sight, as I do hear a lot of good things about them, and to me it would be worth it to me to make a trip out to LV every now & then to do this for the $250 price if the classes are really free.

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:19 PM..
  #2  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:01 PM
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1 - $50 a year for "background check." this goes for everyone no matter what, paid along with the first sign-up of the year

2 - yes. catch, remains to be seen. this seems to be a volume booster, many have speculated that most of their profits come from ammo in the store.

3 - dunno

4 - yes to all

5 - the private range "has not been built yet"

6 - also not yet built, but I guess it will be when it's built

7 - hat, card

if I didn't have a membership I would be going for it.
  #3  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:03 PM
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He also talked crap about the NRA....he will never get my money. You can find good training, closer, with out the drive to Nevada.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:03 PM
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The only catch is that you have to want to go train there.
If you can manage that, then there's really no catch at all.
For the cost of other single training classes you can get a lifetime of training.
Even if you only got to take a few classes what have you lost?
  #5  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:03 PM
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The only continuing fee is each your you have to pay a $50.00 back ground fee.

You jus give two week notice and you can take any class.

Yes you do get 40% of on all items in the pro shop. Watch the prices some are marked up so that the 40% takes you back to regular.

The gifts are a membership card and hat. You don't get the guns or rolex unless you pay the full price.

They are just trying to get more members in. No catch. It is a great deal. I paid more for my upgrad but happy I did upgrade.

PM me if you are interested.
  #6  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:08 PM
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Ok, thanks for the input. Sounds like a good deal, especially since I get out to LV more than a few times a year.


1 more quick question - what about guests attending a course with you if you are already a Diamond member? Like what if my wife wants to attend a course with me (same course, same day... not 2 separate courses on separate days)? I didn't see anything about this on Front Sight's webpage.
  #7  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:12 PM
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1 membership is for 1 person, end of story. for first-timers, you can buy certificates on ebay that cost $100-175. after your first time, it is possible sometimes to find ebay certificates for returning students but they usually cost more than $250!
  #8  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:30 PM
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Just get two memberships, and never have to worry about certificates!
  #9  
Old 12-26-2010, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDM44 View Post
Ok, thanks for the input. Sounds like a good deal, especially since I get out to LV more than a few times a year.


1 more quick question - what about guests attending a course with you if you are already a Diamond member? Like what if my wife wants to attend a course with me (same course, same day... not 2 separate courses on separate days)? I didn't see anything about this on Front Sight's webpage.
You would just have to get a first time cert for her and you can go to the same class.
  #10  
Old 12-27-2010, 7:27 AM
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It seems it is legit. I am getting mine from MP301.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=376006

I am just going to get some for my whole gun shop and spouses. It is a tax write off for company training time.
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  #11  
Old 12-27-2010, 8:36 AM
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I called front sight to ask questions.

> Yes it's a Legit offer
> You appear to get the benifits of whomever you sign in thru.

He didn't want to talk with me, which I found a turn off. He started talking in code words about "Alaska" and "Diamond Elite". The bottom line is it sounded like it matters who you sign with. If they have "alaska" or "elite" privs then you will get those too, if not, then you will not.

He brushed me off the phone with a "these are all questions that should be answered by the person you are getting the membership from".

He didn't answer my question of "do I become a full rights member, or am I somehow permently chained to the person I joined thru", which is what the conversation led me to believe. Not sure how much that will matter.

Last edited by DiscoBayJoe; 12-27-2010 at 8:40 AM..
  #12  
Old 12-27-2010, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoBayJoe View Post

He didn't answer my question of "do I become a full rights member, or am I somehow permently chained to the person I joined thru", which is what the conversation led me to believe. Not sure how much that will matter.

This here is my main concern, as it you do not in fact get the "exact same" benefits as other Diamond members, and that you'll be paying for something more in the long run. Although the guy didn't come right out and say that here, but it almost leads me to believe that there is a catch to all of this.
  #13  
Old 12-27-2010, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SDM44 View Post
This here is my main concern, as it you do not in fact get the "exact same" benefits as other Diamond members, and that you'll be paying for something more in the long run. Although the guy didn't come right out and say that here, but it almost leads me to believe that there is a catch to all of this.
I just placed my order today for friends and I can assure you that its a true lifetime membership with no other catches.

Even if it wasn't, to pay $250 and use it just once more than pays for itself.

I bought several extras because this will be gone and its nice to have...even though other deals will come in the future... for an all inclusive diamond membership is unreal...I paid $2900 for mine and that has been worth every penny.

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:20 PM..
  #14  
Old 12-27-2010, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoBayJoe View Post
I called front sight to ask questions.

> Yes it's a Legit offer
> You appear to get the benifits of whomever you sign in thru.

He didn't want to talk with me, which I found a turn off. He started talking in code words about "Alaska" and "Diamond Elite". The bottom line is it sounded like it matters who you sign with. If they have "alaska" or "elite" privs then you will get those too, if not, then you will not.

He brushed me off the phone with a "these are all questions that should be answered by the person you are getting the membership from".

He didn't answer my question of "do I become a full rights member, or am I somehow permently chained to the person I joined thru", which is what the conversation led me to believe. Not sure how much that will matter.
Sounds like a typical, multi level marketing approach to sales. This should raise some serious red flags. I wouldn't do business with anyone who operates this way.

Their website seems to be all about "testimonials" as to the wonderful training you'll receive. That may be true, but when "Lifetime Diamond Memberships" that they advertise on their website for $99,800 are being sold for $250 on the internet, there are big problems with their business model. I wonder what the people who paid thousands (or more) for their memberships are thinking right now?

This is the kind of thing you normally see just before an MLM imploads. Hopefully, that won't happen to them, but their whole approach to selling their product is totally unlike Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or other, top notch training schools where you simply pay for the courses you want.

My advice would be to tread carefully. $250 will buy a lot of ammo.

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:20 PM..
  #15  
Old 12-27-2010, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by IEShooter View Post
My advice would be to tread carefully. $250 will buy a lot of ammo.
I just got PM from MP301 that he has the Alaska/Elite endorsements, whatever they are, so i'm gonna go for it.

I agree that the business model is pretty jacked. Their email marketing and talking web pages make my skin crawl; however, if I can take even one good course it will be worth it.

My plan is to take a Multi-Day Jeep-trip thru Mojave/Death Valley, end up at frontsight for some firearms training, then follow it all up with a weekend in vegas before heading home. Man that sounds like a good week!
  #16  
Old 12-27-2010, 11:12 AM
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It seems too good to be true, but so far, it seems legit.

I mean, if you do the training ONCE for $250 , it would be worth it to me. Anytime there on, its FREE!

See below..... thanks
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Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:20 PM..
  #17  
Old 12-27-2010, 7:01 PM
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I don't get it? One guy is selling these for $500, other for $250, some with something, some without? Some features planned for the future? So when you do get this, do you get something that says Diamond Membership and lists everything?
  #18  
Old 12-27-2010, 7:24 PM
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I don't get it? One guy is selling these for $500, other for $250, some with something, some without? Some features planned for the future? So when you do get this, do you get something that says Diamond Membership and lists everything?
It's pretty easy. No restrictions. I got my membership at a steal for over $7000! You get a duplicate of what I have. Alaska, etc. I'm not mad that your getting what I paid thousands for because as much as I have used it, I've already got my money out of It. Heck, I'm on a two advanced tactical as we speak typing on my iPhone.

I understand why Piazza is doing this. He will raise a good deal of Capitol AND be able to boost his lifetime membership numbers to help with financing. I noticed today contraction of the new restroom facilities halfway done and something like 12 new ranges just finished that were not here on my last visit. This stuff costs money I'm sayin!



You should really consider it or kick yourself later. Like others have said, use it just once or even twice and it will have paid for itself at this price.

Pm me with any questions or if your ready to pull the trigger.... So to speak!

Joe
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Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:15 PM..
  #19  
Old 12-27-2010, 7:42 PM
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IMO it sounds like a pyramid scheme. How can they possibly be making any money if someone pays $300 for a 'lifetime' membership? I know something about this since my wife was into Tupperware and then "Close to my Heart" scrapbooking stuff - both require that new members sign up through a specific person who then gets some benefit out of it (usually just a discount on new stuff.)

I'll pay $100 for one of the ebay coupons when I have the time for this.
  #20  
Old 12-27-2010, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sd_shooter View Post
IMO it sounds like a pyramid scheme. How can they possibly be making any money if someone pays $300 for a 'lifetime' membership? I know something about this since my wife was into Tupperware and then "Close to my Heart" scrapbooking stuff - both require that new members sign up through a specific person who then gets some benefit out of it (usually just a discount on new stuff.)

I'll pay $100 for one of the ebay coupons when I have the time for this.
Well, your off base on this. The way this works is that current members can buy memberships at whatever our own level is. Then we can sell them, trade them, donate them or give them away. You might find a first time student cert for a hundred bucks, but let's say you go using this cert and realize how much the place has to offer (like 50 different classes) psitol, shotgun, rifle, edged weapons, empty hand defense, youth camp, rope and rappell,multi gun, combat master prep, etc etc ect.... and you could have had all of these classes anytime you want for $250.... Now what? You think you might regret not forking out the $250 instead of the $100?

This is not about in a poke here. I have been several times, many many others on CGN have been several times.... And you will be hard pressed to find any people that have attended FS who have anything negative to say about the training.

And, I'm not just trying to sell you, I'll be glad to direct you to another Diamond member that will hook you up. But if you plan on going "someday", get one of these memberships instead of using a cert. Seriously. You won't be sorry.
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Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:22 PM..
  #21  
Old 12-27-2010, 8:47 PM
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That is the difficult thing here - you are hard pressed to find someone who has ACTUALLY ATTENDED a class say somethig negative.

The only negative nancys are the people who have done their quick google search, found some negative thread, gathered their opinion off of falsehoods and stories, and closed their mind to anything further.

We arent getting rich here guys, just trying to help out a few members take advantage of something - it will help us get better facilities, more instructors, and a better overall experience for everyone!
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2010, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ANDREWMENDEZ View Post
He also talked crap about the NRA....he will never get my money. You can find good training, closer, with out the drive to Nevada.
The NRA is not above criticism, in fact they are well deserving of it (COUGH HARRY REID COUGH). The fact that the "millionaire patriot" (lol) dares to expose the corruption of the NRA is even MORE of a reason for me to support him.
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Old 12-27-2010, 9:48 PM
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the question for me was, will i ever make time or will have that time to attend a class in Pahrump, NV?
I cant even make to Richmond for our bi-monthly USPSA competition, that is only 1-hr away.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:12 PM
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I think this marketing strategy is brilliant. It's like offering lifetime gym memberships to Gold's Gym for $250. Thousands of people sign up but only 1% of those people ever go to the gym.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SikDMAX View Post
That is the difficult thing here - you are hard pressed to find someone who has ACTUALLY ATTENDED a class say somethig negative.

The only negative nancys are the people who have done their quick google search, found some negative thread, gathered their opinion off of falsehoods and stories, and closed their mind to anything further.

We arent getting rich here guys, just trying to help out a few members take advantage of something - it will help us get better facilities, more instructors, and a better overall experience for everyone!
This.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:25 PM
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The NRA is not above criticism, in fact they are well deserving of it (COUGH HARRY REID COUGH). The fact that the "millionaire patriot" (lol) dares to expose the corruption of the NRA is even MORE of a reason for me to support him.
Dr. Pizza is an idiot, a scam artist, and insulting to gun rights. His criticism of NRA at the CRPA (BRA affiliate) gala wasn't based on anything near factual.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:15 AM
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Dr. Pizza is an idiot, a scam artist, and insulting to gun rights. His criticism of NRA at the CRPA (BRA affiliate) gala wasn't based on anything near factual.
Summed it up nicely.


The NRA is a HUGE organization, and of course they are going to have slip ups, or they are going to do something you don't agree with. But if I man is flat out taking ****, without an actual reason, then I have no respect for him, or his sales pitch. Maybe if he wants to change my mind, and spend a couple hundred bucks there, he can make a fat donation to the CGF, and apologize to the NRA, and the CRPA, I would consider going.
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Old 12-28-2010, 1:29 AM
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I would be interested in the lifetime membership for 250 can I get more info?

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:23 PM..
  #29  
Old 12-28-2010, 2:59 AM
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I've been to a couple of the Front Sight courses, and found the training to be first rate. The non-shooting facilities have left me underwhelmed. The last time I was there, the bathrooms were still porta-potties. There are no kitchen facilities on-site, so you bring a lunch.

I certainly have concerns about how long the facility will be functioning, when they offer promotions like the current life membership for "friends" for Since I have a friend with a diamond membership, I'll be signing up for . I already have several certificates (from some web design work I did for FS), but a diamond membership for is too good a deal to pass up, in case FS runs for many more years.

I suppose I can sell my certs.

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:16 PM..
  #30  
Old 12-28-2010, 4:01 AM
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I would be interested in the lifetime membership for $250 can I get more info?
same. i have no idea what you guys are talking about. i checked that site and it says it cost $1 million dollars
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Old 12-28-2010, 4:02 AM
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I'm at Front Sight this week. You will be happy to know that the bathroom facilities are have way built. The walls are up! And though they have no kitchen, they have a big classroom that is very nice and it has several microwaves, about a dozen free coffee and water dispensers and a vending machine.

Let's not forget that they have a company that delivers lunches that you order in advance that are pretty good as well.

It took me a second to figure out the method to the madness on this current promotion but after you think about it, it makes sense.

Not only will it bring in a bunch of money for the expansion, but they are trying to get investors for the hotel, etc. The more lifetime members he has, the easier that will be, yes?
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  #32  
Old 12-28-2010, 4:31 AM
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Well, he is obviously not and idiot or he wouldnt have the largest firearms training school on the planet and have the only school that i know of where you can have a lifetime mrmbership and not pay hundreds of dollars every time you train. And the issue he had getting ahead of himself selling those plots that still are not built due to obstacles (financing,zoning,etc) doesnot a scam artist make him. Heck, he just now got a locked in deal with the county this year.

I personally have met some of those that bought in on the home sites who didn't jump on the lawsuit bandwagon because they had some integrity. They said those, and I quote, "idiots" that sued were out to make a buck and that although everyone thought the development would be done, no one was promised a date.

Where Piazza screwed up IMO, is not just refunding their money. The problem is, a person like that has big ego and he thought he was in the right. Guess the judge didn't agree and it cost him millions. Bet he won't make that mistake again!

As far as Dissing the NRA and CRPA, He is not in a boat all by himself there. Whether justified or not, it is or was his opinion. I'm in your camp personally as I think even with their flaws, try do good and are necessary and important. So am I going to throw the baby out with the bath water because he talked a bit of smack at a CRPA dinner? Not bloody likely!

Brandon, you are one of my favorite people and I have never even met you in person. You are an animal with the work your doing and the hours you put in. So I hope you won't be offended if I disagree with you this one time!

Joe
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Dr. Pizza is an idiot, a scam artist, and insulting to gun rights. His criticism of NRA at the CRPA (BRA affiliate) gala wasn't based on anything near factual.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2010, 4:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ANDREWMENDEZ View Post
Summed it up nicely.


The NRA is a HUGE organization, and of course they are going to have slip ups, or they are going to do something you don't agree with. But if I man is flat out taking ****, without an actual reason, then I have no respect for him, or his sales pitch. Maybe if he wants to change my mind, and spend a couple hundred bucks there, he can make a fat donation to the CGF, and apologize to the NRA, and the CRPA, I would consider going.
Andrew, ill work on getting Piazza's apology for you, but let me say this.

Front Sight is a huge organization and of course they are going to have slip ups! Wait, where did I read that about the NRA?

Seriously, I'm pro NRA and CRPA all the way but they piss me off at times. Do I just dump them and lose all of the benefit I get from them when they fo something I don't agree with? Gee, some of the things they have done are considered down right sleazy. It's not a perfect world.

I think Piazza has a big ego. I dunno, maybe you need one to pull off something like FS. I think he comes across like a car salesman sometimes, but I also believe part of his mission is to change the image of gun ownership just like Harley Davidson did with motorcycles.

And I'd have to say, judging by the people from all over the country, all over the world, that I personally see attending....from doctors and lawyers and LE and Military and housewives and on and on.... I'd say it's working.

Sometimes there will be over 850 people attending in one weekend. And in every class, there are always several people who have no experience with firearms that leave with some skill and confidence isnt that a positive for gun rights? I think that saying he is a negative to gun rights is dead wrong.

Anyway, like Brandon, I like and respect you so please don't take offense at our differing opinion.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2010, 7:20 AM
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I have had friends attend FS to take the Full Auto Uzi class. Needless to say they were underwhelmed! Malfunctioning firearms, poor quality ammo, bad instructors and cheap pizza!

I chose to sleep in instead as this was part of our SHOT show weekend trip some years back. I apparently made the right choice!

I have seen the never ending stream of attempted enticements, read the law suits, and came to the simple conclusion the Front Site has too many questionable issues to warrant my time and money...
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2010, 7:27 AM
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Well, I hate taking someone Else's word for anything, and anyone can catch a bad day.

I am going to drink the cool aid and take advantage. For the price, you cannot go wrong, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cudakidd View Post
I have had friends attend FS to take the Full Auto Uzi class. Needless to say they were underwhelmed! Malfunctioning firearms, poor quality ammo, bad instructors and cheap pizza!

I chose to sleep in instead as this was part of our SHOT show weekend trip some years back. I apparently made the right choice!

I have seen the never ending stream of attempted enticements, read the law suits, and came to the simple conclusion the Front Site has too many questionable issues to warrant my time and money...
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2010, 7:43 AM
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Sooooo, by sleeping in the car, you are down talking something you actually didn't attend? You just made my point. Anything negative your friends might have said is second hand info at best.

Serious folks, go to a class or too and then make your decision on whether it's for you or not. I'm sure it's not for everyone.

You can rationalize all you want on why you think FS is bad. Read the other negative posts about FS in this thread and why they have a beef with the owner. Whether the beefs with the owner are legit or not doesn't say anything one way or the other about the training. Piazza's office is in Ca and I have not once seen him at the facility. The ex military and LE guys that run the place are very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cudakidd View Post
I have had friends attend FS to take the Full Auto Uzi class. Needless to say they were underwhelmed! Malfunctioning firearms, poor quality ammo, bad instructors and cheap pizza!

I chose to sleep in instead as this was part of our SHOT show weekend trip some years back. I apparently made the right choice!

I have seen the never ending stream of attempted enticements, read the law suits, and came to the simple conclusion the Front Site has too many questionable issues to warrant my time and money...
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2010, 8:48 AM
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Apparently this offer only applies to non-members. I just called and was told that if you have a lower membership than Diamond, you can NOT purchase the $250 Diamond membership as an upgrade from a Diamond member selling them.

Not being an exisiting lifetime member has its advantages.
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  #38  
Old 12-28-2010, 9:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP301 View Post
Sooooo, by sleeping in the car, you are down talking something you actually didn't attend? You just made my point. Anything negative your friends might have said is second hand info at best.

Serious folks, go to a class or too and then make your decision on whether it's for you or not. I'm sure it's not for everyone.

You can rationalize all you want on why you think FS is bad. Read the other negative posts about FS in this thread and why they have a beef with the owner. Whether the beefs with the owner are legit or not doesn't say anything one way or the other about the training. Piazza's office is in Ca and I have not once seen him at the facility. The ex military and LE guys that run the place are very good.
+1

I love how every negative comment is regurgitated from someone elses internet post or story of a friend of a friend...I haven't heard of someone first hand going to FS and saying that the place was slimey or unsafe....Thats all internet folklore

BTW...its only $250

Don't get me wrong...I totally understand that his sales and marketing tactics aren't for everyone and boarder on spam. But that shouldn't effect the quality of the FS enviroment. There are reasons people keep going back and its quality training and professional atmosphere.

I don't know...I think as a gun owner I would prefer to have 500-800 students trained per weekend than having no option...Gun people and classes are intimidating for regular people and this is one way to educate people who don't know about gunsite or thunder ranch...or all the "other" latest and greatest. FS shouldn't be the last stop but its a great start.

Last edited by lorax3; 12-28-2010 at 12:17 PM..
  #39  
Old 12-28-2010, 9:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsman View Post
Apparently this offer only applies to non-members. I just called and was told that if you have a lower membership than Diamond, you can NOT purchase the $250 Diamond membership as an upgrade from a Diamond member selling them.

Not being an exisiting lifetime member has its advantages.
Which has been one of the big gripes all along, the claim for a long time was that the memberships sold would be more and more neutered, thus preserving the value of those who bought in early at much higher prices, but now you can get it all (less certs and house plot) for $250. craziness.

Whats the value of a blue cert when membership is $250 (for a limited time only, until the next limited time only...)
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  #40  
Old 12-28-2010, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsman View Post
Apparently this offer only applies to non-members. I just called and was told that if you have a lower membership than Diamond, you can NOT purchase the $250 Diamond membership as an upgrade from a Diamond member selling them.

Not being an exisiting lifetime member has its advantages.


I was told the opposite, I was told "you can purchase it for an existing life member, but they'll end up having two life memberships...they can sell/trade/etc the other membership."

I've already upgraded at least one current life member.
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