Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Curio & Relic/Black Powder
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:02 PM
treelogger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
iTrader: / %
Default M1, Carbine, M1a, I'm confused

I have a completely elementary question.

I know what the M1 Garand is: WW2 rifle, usually caliber 30-06, although some were made (or converted) to 7.62 NATO, available from the CMP, and often used for service high-power rifle matches, for example in the bay area by the San Jose Zouaves. I should really get a nice old Garand from the CMP sometime, in my copious spare time, as they seem to be fun to shoot (nice open sights, heavy weight to absorb recoil). A serviceable gun can be had from the CMP for $600 (service grade), and with another few hundred bucks a specialized gunsmith can turn it into a pretty accurate rifle with a nice new stock. Given that it is fed with 8-round clips, it is obviously CA legal. And Springfield armory sells a modern production version of it, using some old GI parts, available in both 30-06 and 7.62 NATO = .308 Win, but quite a bit more expensive.

I know what the M1 Carbine is: A lighter/shorter WW2 rifle, in caliber .30 Carbine a.k.a. 7.62x33 (is this the same as 30-30?). The fun thing is that the rifle was made by interesting companies, so if I had nothing useful to do, I could buy one made by IBM (in honor of my employer, who probably desperately wants to forget the fact that it used to be a weapons manufacturer). Seems a well-preserved branded carbine (matched parts) can also be had for $600 to $1000. There is a variant called the M1A1 with a folding stock. It usually comes with 15- or 30-round magazines, but after-market 10-rounders for our fine state can be bought. So far so good.

I understand that the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine have little in common, other than their name (which they also share with the M1 Abrams, different kettle of fish).

Now comes the confusing part. Springfield also sells a rifle that's called the M1A. Looking at the picture, it looks a little like the M1 Garand, and it also comes in 7.62 NATO. Except that it doesn't actually look exactly like the Garand, the front end is all different, and it seems to be fed by a magazine from below, instead of having a fixed mag and being fed by a clip from above. And it is available in many interesting versions (some at rather high prices).

Now I'm confused: Is the Springfield M1A a version of the carbine like the M1A1 just in a bigger caliber, or is it an updated version of the Garand, or is it something totally different which happens to share a similar name?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:41 PM
Mssr. Eleganté's Avatar
Mssr. Eleganté Mssr. Eleganté is offline
Blue Blaze Irregular
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,362
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Here's a really short version of the answers. Somebody will be along soon to clear up all of the details and mistakes...

The U.S. Army used to name everything after the year it was accepted into service, like the M1903 service rifle, the M1911 service pistol, the M1919 machine gun, etc.

Then they descided to switch to a new naming system and the Garand was the first service rifle to fall under this new system, so it got the name M1 Rifle. (or US Rifle Caliber 30 M1)

The Carbine was the first carbine named under the new system so it got the name M1 Carbine.

When the military accepts an altered version of a weapon into service they add the "A" to the end of the name and then another number 1 to show it was the first altered version of the weapon. So the M1A1 Carbine is the first altered version of the M1 Carbine.

You see this with the M16 Rifle too, M16A1, M16A2...these are all altered versions of the original M16 that were accepted into service.

I was told, but don't know for sure, that when Springfield Armory Inc. started making their clone of the M14 service rifle, BATF wouldn't let them call it an M14 because their would be too much confusion with the real M14 rifles made by the real Springfield Armory.

I think Springfield Armory Inc. made a really bad descision when they went with M1A for the name. It causes all kinds of confusion. The only reason I can think of why they would do this is because the letter A looks kind of like the number 4. They really should have gone with "Model 14" or "SA14" or something.
__________________
__________________

"Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:02 PM
jdberger's Avatar
jdberger jdberger is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,934
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

.30 carbine and 30-30 Win are WAYYYY different. As far as ballistics go, 30-30 is similar to 7.62x39.

I really don't know what .30 Carbine compares to.

Here is a link to a comparison I ran featuring .30 Carbine, 7.62x39, 9mm Para and .357 Mag. http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&...%7c18%7c3%7c37

Buy all three!
__________________
Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky.

90% of winning is simply showing up.

"Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green


NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:20 PM
50 Freak's Avatar
50 Freak 50 Freak is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,435
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

I was told that Springfield Armory didn't want to be like the other "M14" manufacters out there so they decided to name their gun a M1A.

It was a marketing plan that seemed to work brilliantly. As even to this day most people think that they can't own a M14 (as that is the fully automatic version) but only a civilian version named the M1A (which of course only Springfield makes).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-07-2006, 8:31 PM
tygerpaw's Avatar
tygerpaw tygerpaw is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Solano County
Posts: 567
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 Freak
I was told that Springfield Armory didn't want to be like the other "M14" manufacters out there so they decided to name their gun a M1A.

It was a marketing plan that seemed to work brilliantly. As even to this day most people think that they can't own a M14 (as that is the fully automatic version) but only a civilian version named the M1A (which of course only Springfield makes).
I believe that Springfield Armory, Inc. (Divine TX) was the first producer of civi legal M-14's in about 1972. I believe other MFR's started after that. That still doesnt explain "M1A", but I dont think it was called that to distinguish it from the other manufacturers. Different on www.m14forum.com would know for sure....
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-07-2006, 10:45 PM
50 Freak's Avatar
50 Freak 50 Freak is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,435
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Quote:
I believe that Springfield Armory, Inc. (Divine TX) was the first producer of civi legal M-14's in about 1972. I believe other MFR's started after that. That still doesnt explain "M1A", but I dont think it was called that to distinguish it from the other manufacturers.
Remember, there are two Springfield Armory. The first one (out of TX) produced M-14s. They went out of business and the Springfield Armory (that I'm referring to) is the second and current one. They were the ones that decided to build "M1A's".
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:48 PM
Mssr. Eleganté's Avatar
Mssr. Eleganté Mssr. Eleganté is offline
Blue Blaze Irregular
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,362
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 Freak
Remember, there are two Springfield Armory. The first one (out of TX) produced M-14s. They went out of business and the Springfield Armory (that I'm referring to) is the second and current one. They were the ones that decided to build "M1A's".
Elmer Balance's Springfield Armory out of Devine, Texas was the first manufacturer of a civilian M14 clone. It was marked M1A. He sold the rights to the rifle to the Reese family who moved production to its current location in Genesco, IL. So there was never any reason to try and be different from other M14 clone manufacturers, because there weren't any others at the time.
__________________
__________________

"Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-21-2006, 11:05 AM
icormba's Avatar
icormba icormba is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1,802
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50 Freak
Remember, there are two Springfield Armory. The first one (out of TX) produced M-14s. They went out of business and the Springfield Armory (that I'm referring to) is the second and current one. They were the ones that decided to build "M1A's".
3 Springfields....
don't forget the original Springfield Armory that was around from ~1794-1968... they made the original M1 Garand not to be confused with the current production Springfield Inc. Garand.
__________________
Chris
http://www.m1garand.net
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-23-2006, 1:08 PM
NeoWeird's Avatar
NeoWeird NeoWeird is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,349
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

So far sounds good to me.

I'd like to also add that the M stands for Model and the A stands for Advance.

So, as stated, you have the firearms that get modified and get newer numbers and they eventually form a series. A good example is the M16 series. The M16A1 had the original Vietnam style of sights, the M16A2 had the new sights with the elevation knob, the M16A3 is the flat top versions, etc.

Also, there is a problem because an M1A1 is also the military 'Thompson' sub machine gun whereas the M1A1 Carbine is the folding carbine. Think of it like a M1 Carbine and a M1 Garand. You can't exactly drop the name of either because you won't know which is the Garand and which is the Carbine because both are "M1"s. You NEED to call it an M1A1 Carbine, or you are refferring to another firearm.
__________________
quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. - Lucius Annaeus
a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-16-2007, 7:57 AM
mikehaas's Avatar
mikehaas mikehaas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,237
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default


Ballistic Comparison of the above
(Actually, the 7.62x39 is .31 caliber, but close enough for government work :-)

Mike

Last edited by mikehaas; 11-16-2007 at 8:21 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-16-2007, 9:58 AM
FortCourageArmory's Avatar
FortCourageArmory FortCourageArmory is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Posts: 1,002
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdberger View Post
.30 carbine and 30-30 Win are WAYYYY different. As far as ballistics go, 30-30 is similar to 7.62x39.

I really don't know what .30 Carbine compares to.
.30 Carbine is a 110-grain, .30 caliber bullet travelling at approx. 1,900 fps with an energy rating of 882 ft. lbs. That's a little more potent than a .357 Magnum. But it's basically a pistol cartridge and has all the limitations of a pistol cartridge (range, etc.). The .30-30 Winchester is a 170-grain .30 caliber bullet travelling at approx. 2,390 fps with an energy rating of 1,902 ft. lbs. You can see the power difference.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Tim & the gang
Fort Courage Armory
1518-B Los Angeles Avenue
Simi Valley, CA 93065
(805) 526-6563
www.fortcouragearmory.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-16-2007, 2:33 PM
gunshack gunshack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: West Marin
Posts: 261
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Smile

Quote:
M1, Carbine, M1a...
I'll take two of each, thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-16-2007, 3:23 PM
NRAhighpowershooter's Avatar
NRAhighpowershooter NRAhighpowershooter is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,472
iTrader: 93 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunshack View Post
I'll take two of each, thank you.

kinda like this??
Garands.......

M1A's......

M1 Carbines.............
__________________
'Just Don't Point, Squint, and Laugh! '

Distinguished Rifleman Badge #2220
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-16-2007, 3:55 PM
Prince50's Avatar
Prince50 Prince50 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 878
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

To answer the OP, The Garand was the first rifle with the operating system that is used by all three rifles you are asking about. It came into service during WWII, and was designed by John Cantius Garand. It was the first semi auto rifle to be used in military service by any country.

The M1 Carbine uses the same operating system, and was also used during WWII to replace the pistol as a sidearm. It even came with a hip holster. Small size, much less power.

After WWII the M14 was designed as an upgrade to the Garand. Same basic operating system, new NATO caliber, detachable box magazine. It was in service a very short time officially. (Not really, but more on that later). The M14 was replaced by the M16 in the 1960s.

The M1A is a commercial copy of the military M14. It is semi auto only and uses many of the same parts.

The M14 has been in wide military use as a scoped countersniper/sniper rifle in the sand box, which shows it was probably too quickly retired in the 1960s.

Hope that helped.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-16-2007, 4:16 PM
NRAhighpowershooter's Avatar
NRAhighpowershooter NRAhighpowershooter is offline
Super Moderator
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,472
iTrader: 93 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince50 View Post
To answer the OP, The Garand was the first rifle with the operating system that is used by all three rifles you are asking about. It came into service during WWII, and was designed by John Cantius Garand. It was the first semi auto rifle to be used in military service by any country.

The M1 Carbine uses the same operating system, and was also used during WWII to replace the pistol as a sidearm. It even came with a hip holster. Small size, much less power.

After WWII the M14 was designed as an upgrade to the Garand. Same basic operating system, new NATO caliber, detachable box magazine. It was in service a very short time officially. (Not really, but more on that later). The M14 was replaced by the M16 in the 1960s.

The M1A is a commercial copy of the military M14. It is semi auto only and uses many of the same parts.

The M14 has been in wide military use as a scoped countersniper/sniper rifle in the sand box, which shows it was probably too quickly retired in the 1960s.

Hope that helped.
Actually the M1 Carbine uses a tappet gas system unlike the M1 Garand and M1A... the Tappet system was invented by 'Carbine' Williams who had actually nothing to do with the Carbine except for his tappet system being used by the designers.....supposedly 'Carbine' Williams was invited to be on the developement staff and caused so many problems when on the staff that the Govt. booted him off......
__________________
'Just Don't Point, Squint, and Laugh! '

Distinguished Rifleman Badge #2220
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-16-2007, 4:26 PM
NeoWeird's Avatar
NeoWeird NeoWeird is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 3,349
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

To elaborate on what was just said, for those that don't quite understand, the M1 Garand and M14/M1A systems are cycled entirely by the expanding gas of the cartridge. The M1 Garand's gas port is very far forward on the rifle, almost at the muzzle, to allow pressures to drop safetly before the action is opened. This also ensures the bullet has left the barrel before any mechanical motion begins to make a much more accurate rifle. The M1 Carbine on the other hand has it's gas port very near the chamber, almost immediately after it. However, where as the M1 Garand has an Op rod (so called because it is a rod/piston that opperates the action with the force of the gas) the M1 carbine has nothing short of a little thumper. The cartridge is fired and locked in place, as it passes the gas port the thumper hits the very short Op rod on the M1 Carbine which is only long enough to unlock the action; however, the bullet is still in the barrel and the gasses are still expanding which puts enough pressure rearward to open the bolt and cycle the action. It is more like a gas assisted blowback system instead of a true gas system like the M1 Garand.
__________________
quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. - Lucius Annaeus
a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-16-2007, 4:39 PM
Prince50's Avatar
Prince50 Prince50 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 878
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Wow nice to know.

Darin
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-16-2007, 9:32 PM
smle-man's Avatar
smle-man smle-man is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 6,866
iTrader: 102 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoWeird View Post
To elaborate on what was just said, for those that don't quite understand, the M1 Garand and M14/M1A systems are cycled entirely by the expanding gas of the cartridge. The M1 Garand's gas port is very far forward on the rifle, almost at the muzzle, to allow pressures to drop safetly before the action is opened. This also ensures the bullet has left the barrel before any mechanical motion begins to make a much more accurate rifle. The M1 Carbine on the other hand has it's gas port very near the chamber, almost immediately after it. However, where as the M1 Garand has an Op rod (so called because it is a rod/piston that opperates the action with the force of the gas) the M1 carbine has nothing short of a little thumper. The cartridge is fired and locked in place, as it passes the gas port the thumper hits the very short Op rod on the M1 Carbine which is only long enough to unlock the action; however, the bullet is still in the barrel and the gasses are still expanding which puts enough pressure rearward to open the bolt and cycle the action. It is more like a gas assisted blowback system instead of a true gas system like the M1 Garand.
The bullet has exited the barrel by the time the action is unlocking on the M1 Carbine. The tappet in the gas piston has sufficient thrust to start the operating rod/slide on its way to unlock and cycle the action. The action does not unlock until the chamber pressure has dropped to safe levels. If the action was a gas assisted blowback the shooter would be getting an unpleasent burst of gas in the face when the action cycles.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:13 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.