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  #1  
Old 08-07-2014, 8:54 PM
grego31 grego31 is offline
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Default PPT deliver of a handgun question

I have a PPT transaction question about delivering a handgun after the 10 day waiting period and wanted to know what fellow FFL's would advise.
The buyer is from out of town, 4+ hours of driving. Comes thru the town on business so he did the PPT FTF with the seller, and with me, the FFL. Had a question regarding delivering the handgun after the 10 day wait is complete and the DROS comes back as approved. If I am going toward his place of residence for business, can I bring along the paperwork and the form for a handgun safety demo, and deliver it to him outside of my place of business? My license says I am allowed to conduct business at my address and at gunshows but from what I was told, the business side does not include the wait period. I spoke to the ATF and the CADOJ and was told that I can not perform a DROS or any transaction or sales of firearms outside of those two places but did not have an answer about delivering an approved firearm purchase after the wait period. ATF said it is a CADOJ issue and it is up to them and CADOJ said that they will check and get back to me and suggested that I do not perform any such actions until told otherwise.
This is a new one for me and did a bunch of searching and could not find anything that states that the delivery of the firearm must be done at your place of business. The transaction has already been done at the place of business, the wait period is just a hoop to jump thru.
Please correct me if my thinking is wrong.
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2014, 9:26 PM
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California law actually allows California dealers to deliver the firearm to the buyer's place of business or home after the waiting period. But federal law doesn't have such an exemption. Don't you need to have the buyer sign the Form 4473 right before pick up? If so, then that would constitute "business activity" that could only occur at your licensed premises or at a gun show in your State.
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Old 08-07-2014, 9:30 PM
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Interested in hearing the answer.
On first glance, I would say no. You would still have to go on the DES at his location and click "Deliver Gun", then print and fingerprint again. I would assume that is all part of the transaction.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DucatiSS View Post
Interested in hearing the answer.
On first glance, I would say no. You would still have to go on the DES at his location and click "Deliver Gun", then print and fingerprint again. I would assume that is all part of the transaction.
We have to fingerprint again? I haven't been doing that.
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Old 08-08-2014, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
We have to fingerprint again? I haven't been doing that.
I couldn't find anything in the PC saying we had to have them fingerprint again, but we still have them do it.
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Old 08-08-2014, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
We have to fingerprint again? I haven't been doing that.
When I looked I couldn't find anything that said we did but we do it anyways.

I believe there are also a few FFLs who don't print or have them sign the delivered DROS either. They just click deliver.
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Old 08-08-2014, 9:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
When I looked I couldn't find anything that said we did but we do it anyways.

I believe there are also a few FFLs who don't print or have them sign the delivered DROS either. They just click deliver.
I guess we'll find out when someone gets audited on the new forms.
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  #8  
Old 08-08-2014, 11:04 AM
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I guess we'll find out when someone gets audited on the new forms.
Yup, it sucks that they launched the new system and put rules in place with zero information to dealers.
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  #9  
Old 08-08-2014, 11:13 AM
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I asked the ATF about signing the form at the time of pickup and was told that the signature is only needed to show that the gun is being delivered and that they are picking it up at a later date from the original date the paperwork was started and filled out. Once they sign line 16, the transaction is complete. When they sign line 24, they are only re-certifying that the info filled out prior is still correct and true.
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grego31 View Post
I asked the ATF about signing the form at the time of pickup and was told that the signature is only needed to show that the gun is being delivered and that they are picking it up at a later date from the original date the paperwork was started and filled out. Once they sign line 16, the transaction is complete. When they sign line 24, they are only re-certifying that the info filled out prior is still correct and true.
You are talking 4473, they are talking DROS. Different forms.

We have them sign and another thumb print when we deliver. It will be interesting to see what happens with the audits.
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
California law actually allows California dealers to deliver the firearm to the buyer's place of business or home after the waiting period. But federal law doesn't have such an exemption. Don't you need to have the buyer sign the Form 4473 right before pick up? If so, then that would constitute "business activity" that could only occur at your licensed premises or at a gun show in your State.
Condorguns, Mssr. Elegante was talking about the 4473 form which I was answering, should have quoted to make it clear. The DROS is still in question that I have not heard back about.
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2014, 12:13 PM
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You'll also notice on PPT's there is a place for the sell to sign on the "APPOROVED/DELIVERED" form! What's up with that???
You'd think that with all the development of this new system that forms would be situation specific.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:26 PM
grego31 grego31 is offline
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There is no mention that the purchaser/transferee needs to sign the form when the delivery is made, only that the dealer must access the DES system and click the "deliver firearm" button to record the date and time it was delivered.

Title: DROS Entry System

Sections: 4200, 4210, 4220, 4230, and 4240

Date Filed with the Secretary of State: December 26,2013

Effective Date: January 1, 2014

§4230. Delivery of Firearms following DROS Submission
(a) If DOJ determines the firearm purchaser/transferee is not prohibited by state or federal
law from purchasing or possessing firearms, immediately following the conclusion of the
ten-day waiting period, the status of the DES transaction record will change from
"Pending" to "Approved." The DES transaction record will also specify the 30-day time
period during which the firearm may be delivered to the approved purchaser/transferee.
(b) A firearm may be delivered to the purchaser/transferee only if the status ofthe DES
transaction record is "Approved." If the current status is "Pending," "Rejected,"
"Delayed," or "Denied," the firearm shall not be delivered.
(c) Upon delivery of the firearm, the dealership COE holder or an authorized employee of
the dealership must access the DES delivery menu, locate the DROS transaction by the
name of the purchaser/recipient or by the DROS number, and then select "deliver
firearm" to record the time and date the firearm is delivered.

Last edited by grego31; 08-08-2014 at 12:43 PM..
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  #14  
Old 08-08-2014, 12:31 PM
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I understand that. Just wondering why : "with all the development of this new system that forms wouldn't be situation specific."
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
I understand that. Just wondering why : "with all the development of this new system that forms wouldn't be situation specific."
Sorry about posting that after your post, I was doing research and trying to get my girls school supplies gathered up and didn't refresh the post before posting.
I agree that there is much that needs to be improved in the forms and the DES people will agree. I for one think that they keep it vague and unclear so that they can leave enough wiggle room to make their interpretations of the laws fit for each scenario.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2014, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grego31 View Post
There is no mention that the purchaser/transferee needs to sign the form when the delivery is made, only that the dealer must access the DES system and click the "deliver firearm" button to record the date and time it was delivered.
Really? You might want to take a look at the CA PC.

Quote:
28160. (a) For all firearms, the register or record of electronic
transfer shall include all of the following information:
...
(40) For transactions on and after January 1, 2015, the purchaser'
s firearm safety certificate number, except that in the case of a
handgun, the number from an unexpired handgun safety certificate may
be used.
(b) The purchaser shall provide the purchaser's right thumbprint
on the register in a manner prescribed by the department. No
exception to this requirement shall be permitted except by
regulations adopted by the department.
(c) The firearms dealer shall record on the register or record of
electronic transfer the date that the firearm is delivered, together
with the firearm dealer's signature indicating delivery of the
firearm.
(d) The purchaser shall sign the register or the record of
electronic transfer on the date that the firearm is delivered to him
or her.
Quote:
28215. (a) (1) Where the electronic or telephonic transfer of
applicant information is used, the purchaser shall be required to
present to the dealer clear evidence of the person's identity and
age.
...
(e) (1) A copy of the record of electronic or telephonic transfer
shall be provided to the purchaser by the dealer at the time of
delivery of the firearm and after the dealer notes the date of
delivery and the dealer's signature indicating delivery of the
firearm, and the purchaser acknowledges the receipt of the firearm.
...
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