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  #1  
Old 12-19-2017, 9:35 PM
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Default Ammo Sales / Transfer on 1/1/2018

Has anyone received instructions on what we're supposed to do on 1/1/2018? I remember reading the BGC portion doesn't take effect until 2019. Is it business as usual for us between 1/1/2018 and BGC in 2019?

E.g., no extra paperwork, no extra tracking, nothing, but hand over the ammo and collect payment?

I've tried contacting DOJ and have been on hold up to 30 mins each time and couldn't wait any longer. I have a lot of customers asking if I can receive ammo for them.

Currently I receive for customers and leave it up front for them to pick-up. Can I still do that if I already know they are > 21? Is that still considered FTF if the receptionist is delivering the ammo? (I'm guessing no).

If they do see us directly, do I need to do anything more than just hand them their ammo?

Not sure if anyone got any info or saw anything I missed.

Thanks

----
I heard back from CA DOJ (in writing) and received the following info:
Q. When processing internet transfers of ammunition for customers what are the fee limits?
$10 per transaction, per PC 30364

Q. What information is required to be on the receipts for ammo sales or internet transfers to customers?
A. Nothing at this time. Record keeping doesn’t start until July 1, 2019. PC 30352 states what information needs to be collected and recorded.

Q. Are there *any* records we have to keep on ammunition sales until the new system is in place in July 2019?
A. No. You should check to make sure there is no local ordinance that requires you to maintain ammunition sales records.

Q. Previously in 2017 when we sold ammo our receipts would simply say "Box of 9mm" or similar. I wanted to confirm that was still acceptable until the new requirements in July 2019. I also wanted to ensure I did not need any other paperwork to process ammunition sales.
A. At this point in time, that is still acceptable for ammunition sales.
--- Received answers from a different DOJ rep today 1/9/2018 --
Question 1: Internet sales are addressed in section 4263(b). In short, you may charge a storage fee that you and your customer agree on. We do not regulate storage fees.

Question 2: At this point we do not require specific info to be recorded on receipts.

Question 3: At this point we do not require you to keep any records of ammo sales. However, it may be a good idea for you to use a database, Excel spreadsheet, etc. and form a habit of recording information in anticipation of regulations that will be implemented in July 2019. Consider collecting the customer’s name, copy of their ID, date of purchase, make, caliber, and quantity of ammo. Remember, we do not currently require this but it may be a good idea to get in the habit of asking for this info.
--- Received feedback today 1/11/2018
Basically I was asking what happens during a PPT Ammo Transfer
Me: Does the seller hand me the ammo and then I push it over to the buyer?
DOJ: There are no requirements stating that you have to physically handle or touch the ammo. The seller can place it on the counter, or the floor, and the buyer can take it from the counter or floor.

Me: If it's a lot of ammo do I have to handle it or do I just need to witness the seller handing it over to the buyer?
DOJ: The customer can place it on the counter (or, if there is a lot of ammo, it can be left on the floor).

Me: I'd prefer to not have to lift heavy boxes of ammo just to hand it from the seller to the buyer if not required.
DOJ: You do not have to handle the ammo.
--
Basically you just have to watch the seller give ammo to buyer and then it's done.
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Last edited by ugimports; 01-11-2018 at 10:04 AM.. Reason: Added 1/9/2018 info - Added info on how to handle PPTs
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2017, 7:03 AM
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We will probably get the same 1/1/18 Bulletin BS that seems to be the way they operate. Unfortunately we are dealing with speculation instead of fact. And what will be a proper fee for this service. Do we charge per transaction or per box. I think we could be taken advantage of or be losing business given that we are making decisions in the dark.

This particular rollout has a tremendous amount of BS and potential impact attached to it unfortunately. . .
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2017, 8:05 AM
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I've heard nothing...
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:02 AM
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I also have nothing but a bunch of customers wanting answers. I assume we as FFL's will become instant ammo dealers on the first. I guess places like Walmart are SOL on the first.

I have no clue how to deal with receiving ammo for my customers.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:27 PM
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No idea either. Same questions and vague responses here too.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
I guess places like Walmart are SOL on the first.
That is funny, I had not thought about that since most places that sell ammo is also a FFL. Too bad for Walmart, perhaps they will regret all the violations that they had.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2017, 1:13 PM
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*sigh* -- I was really hoping I just missed some notice/bulletin...
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Old 12-21-2017, 5:00 AM
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Still thinking we have a 50/50 chance of an injunction. Like last time. Maybe 1 week prior or maybe one day like the mag ban. Wishful thinking ???

Last edited by TripleT; 12-21-2017 at 6:29 PM..
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:28 AM
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There was a bulletin that indicated the FFl's are automatically ammo vendors. My understanding is that we must also have ammo secured from customers by 1/1/18. Beyond that, I'm as lost as you guys!
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Old 12-21-2017, 5:59 PM
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i tried asking for info while checking on my cfd app. didnít get much other than ffls dont have to get a separate permit to sell ammo. this is so confusing 🤪


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Old 12-21-2017, 6:54 PM
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All employees handling guns or ammo must have a COE on file
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Old 12-21-2017, 7:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
I also have nothing but a bunch of customers wanting answers. I assume we as FFL's will become instant ammo dealers on the first. I guess places like Walmart are SOL on the first.

I have no clue how to deal with receiving ammo for my customers.
I would imagine that WalMart has some lawyers who have been figuring it out.
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Old 12-21-2017, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sandiego67 View Post
I would imagine that WalMart has some lawyers who have been figuring it out.
How can they figure it out? CA DOJ hasn't given the rules yet. It's like trying to figure out how to register an AW before the regulations were released.
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:26 PM
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How can they figure it out? CA DOJ hasn't given the rules yet. It's like trying to figure out how to register an AW before the regulations were released.
I'm not sure where the confusion is, Walmart will be selling ammo from their inventory, they won't be accepting shipments from online sellers.

They will be required to have a designated ammo person with a Certificate of Eligibility in the sporting goods store handling the ammo transactions (which may be a pain). The customer will purchase the ammo, pay the sales tax and be on their way.

WalMarts in California need a AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE, they don't need an FFL.

They have shelves full of ammo. As of January 1, 2018, they can still sell ammo if they have the AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...s/bof-1021.pdf

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...nt-reasons.pdf

Last edited by sandiego67; 12-21-2017 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:50 PM
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All the record keeping requirements went away?

For example I saw this:
Quote:
A vendor who fails to comply with ammunition sale requirements three times would have their ammunition dealer’s license permanently revoked.
What are the ammunition sale requirements I would need to comply with?

I also saw some reference to CA DOJ storing ammo sales information, but it doesn't say that is tied to the background checks or not. So I'm not sure if that sales information collection starts in 2018 or not.

This was just info that was part of:
http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2016/gener...mplete-vig.pdf

I'm trying to find the actual penal code, but am not having luck.

Can you send the links to the full penal code and what is effective on 1/1/2018 vs later in 2019? It sounds like you understand what's going on and can educate all of us.
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiego67 View Post
I'm not sure where the confusion is, Walmart will be selling ammo from their inventory, they won't be accepting shipments from online sellers.

They will be required to have a designated ammo person with a Certificate of Eligibility in the sporting goods store handling the ammo transactions (which may be a pain). The customer will purchase the ammo, pay the sales tax and be on their way.

WalMarts in California need a AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE, they don't need an FFL.

They have shelves full of ammo. As of January 1, 2018, they can still sell ammo if they have the AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...s/bof-1021.pdf

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...nt-reasons.pdf
How will Walmart have a ammunition vendors license by the first?
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
How can they figure it out? CA DOJ hasn't given the rules yet. It's like trying to figure out how to register an AW before the regulations were released.
From the NRA and it's attorneys from December 2017.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...nistrative-law

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf

I don't have access to specific evidence showing WalMart has addressed the issue also but as a huge corporation with significant liability as well as profit motive, I assume that they are addressing this also

Last edited by sandiego67; 12-22-2017 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiego67 View Post
From the NRA and it's attorneys from December 2017.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...nistrative-law

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf

I don't have access to specific evidence showing WalMart has addressed the issue also but as a huge corporation with significant liability as well as profit motive, I assume that they are addressing this also
That's all about the license. I'm not asking about that (I think as you said it's pretty clear). I'm talking about the actual process to sell ammo from my post a few above. There's supposedly processes to follow and sales information we have to track. I don't know what that is, how it's supposed to be tracked, or who I provide that to.

I have no idea what the ammunition sales requirements are and don't want to violate them.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
That's all about the license. I'm not asking about that (I think as you said it's pretty clear). I'm talking about the actual process to sell ammo from my post a few above. There's supposedly processes to follow and sales information we have to track. I don't know what that is, how it's supposed to be tracked, or who I provide that to.

I have no idea what the ammunition sales requirements are and don't want to violate them.
I'm not positive but the stuff you are talking about will start in 2019 if my memory serves me right
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:16 AM
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I'm not positive but the stuff you are talking about will start in 2019 if my memory serves me right
That's what I'm trying to confirm as well, but as it stands I can't find it. I saw BGC is in 2019, but nothing else confirming what, if anything, changes between 1/1/2018 and 2019.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
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That's what I'm trying to confirm as well, but as it stands I can't find it. I saw BGC is in 2019, but nothing else confirming what, if anything, changes between 1/1/2018 and 2019.
All ammo must be obtained from an FFL or CA Authorized Ammo Vendor.

Anyone handling firearms or ammo in an FFL or AV must have a COE
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiego67 View Post
From the NRA and it's attorneys from December 2017.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...nistrative-law

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf

I don't have access to specific evidence showing WalMart has addressed the issue also but as a huge corporation with significant liability as well as profit motive, I assume that they are addressing this also
Don't know if anyone has read the proposed Ammunition Vendor License form but they're requiring a $189.00 lic. fee from vendors!!
I call it a )(*&%$TAX!!!
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Old 12-27-2017, 8:53 AM
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Finally getting around to figuring out how my fees schedule is going to work. Only PPTs are $5 by regulation. If they don't bring the ammo in, we can charge whatever storage fees we want.

Really the biggest deal in all of this is sales tax. I think we are on safe footing on a PPT not to require sales tax. So those will just be $5 and nothing to it. I expect to get like zero of those.

It is being the receiver that is going to be a potential pitfall, especially for stupid dealers who are running their mouths about doing all of this for free. You know customers are going to want to not pay sales tax or pay it with their credit card, which immediately puts you at a loss. Either way, you still have to track the sales tax and submit it to the BOE. What a pain.

This is just a fat mess. A dude orders $1000 worth of ammo, I have to collect $72.50 in sales tax and that is going to cost me $2 in processing fees. That isn't horrible, so maybe I will just do a flat rate of $20 for cash check payment and $30 for credit cards. I might also reserve the right to change my amounts at anytime for any reason (if a dude comes in wanting to pick up $10K worth).

Thoughts?
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Old 12-27-2017, 8:55 AM
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Reading the regulations, I am not sure a guy ordering ammo online and having it shipped to us is even a " Private Party (non-vendor) Ammunition Sale".

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf

So I will just err on the side of my profits and the fact I am the only ammo vendor in town.
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Old 12-27-2017, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Reading the regulations, I am not sure a guy ordering ammo online and having it shipped to us is even a " Private Party (non-vendor) Ammunition Sale".

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf

So I will just err on the side of my profits and the fact I am the only ammo vendor in town.
It is just like firearms. If it out of state, it is subject to sales tax. Doesn't make sense since the excuse is wrong, state law, not federal, but it is going through your business.
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Old 12-27-2017, 9:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Finally getting around to figuring out how my fees schedule is going to work. Only PPTs are $5 by regulation. If they don't bring the ammo in, we can charge whatever storage fees we want.

Really the biggest deal in all of this is sales tax.

This is just a fat mess. A dude orders $1000 worth of ammo, I have to collect $72.50 in sales tax and that is going to cost me $2 in processing fees. That isn't horrible, so maybe I will just do a flat rate of $20 for cash check payment and $30 for credit cards.

Thoughts?
FFL's are not a bank

CASH ONLY for ammo transfer fees and Sales tax payments.

Logging in and logging out Ammo is going to be a PITA
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Old 12-27-2017, 9:07 AM
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Logging in and logging out Ammo is going to be a PITA
You have 1.5 years to figure it out!

I just can't believe how stupid it is we start doing this now when we don't have to check anything. There is zero point except to collect sales tax.
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  #28  
Old 12-27-2017, 9:12 AM
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There is zero point except to collect sales tax.
Not quite, harassment is also a point, which is likely the main purpose, but the added money they also like.
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Old 12-27-2017, 9:15 AM
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This is going to be a hot mess come the 1st of the year. I doubt that this is going to work out well for either the FFl or the customer. I predict a lot of bootleg ammo coming in from out of State and cannot wait to see the litigation going forward.

At some point we just have to draw a line in the sand and refuse to comply.
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Old 12-27-2017, 9:21 AM
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This is going to be a hot mess come the 1st of the year. I doubt that this is going to work out well for either the FFl or the customer. I predict a lot of bootleg ammo coming in from out of State and cannot wait to see the litigation going forward.

At some point we just have to draw a line in the sand and refuse to comply.
There is zero incentive for dealers to just refuse to comply as losing your CFD pretty much means you will be an easily convicted criminal that is unable to continue to sell guns or ammo. Dealers will continue to have to play the game or leave the game all together.
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  #31  
Old 12-27-2017, 9:23 AM
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Here is what I am going to post.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2017-12-27 Ammo Fees.jpg (83.8 KB, 150 views)
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2017, 9:53 AM
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So let me get this clear:
"A" comes in and buys ammo off the shelf and pays price plus tax.
"B" orders ammo from XYZ Ammo Sales in Nebraska, has it shipped to you, and you transfer the shipment to "B" (plus any fee) minus sales tax...?
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:01 AM
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So let me get this clear:
"A" comes in and buys ammo off the shelf and pays price plus tax.
"B" orders ammo from XYZ Ammo Sales in Nebraska, has it shipped to you, and you transfer the shipment to "B" (plus any fee) minus sales tax...?
No, I think he is collecting sales tax in Option "B".
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
So let me get this clear:
"A" comes in and buys ammo off the shelf and pays price plus tax.
"B" orders ammo from XYZ Ammo Sales in Nebraska, has it shipped to you, and you transfer the shipment to "B" (plus any fee) minus sales tax...?
Nope, the business has to collect sales tax.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:04 AM
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Unless it is some rare caliber, why would anyone go through this online hassle?
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:08 AM
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Unless it is some rare caliber, why would anyone go through this online hassle?

all i know is the people with 03ffl + coe are gonna be popular folks and there is no way to stop the illegal co-ops that will sprout up with these holders and their close friends.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:25 AM
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How about when a customer complains, we all ask what organization they belong to that is fighting the BS ? 99 % of the 10 million gun owners in CA are going to want to know how this happened, when they have to pay an extra 30.00 for a brick of 22 lr.
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  #38  
Old 12-27-2017, 11:58 AM
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Nope, the business has to collect sales tax.
I know that BOE has ruled that we collect tax on a firearm because we are the considered the retailer of the firearm due to the registration of the firearm, but until ammo is "registered" to the consumer why do we collect Tax prior to that?
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:03 PM
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I know that BOE has ruled that we collect tax on a firearm because we are the considered the retailer of the firearm due to the registration of the firearm, but until ammo is "registered" to the consumer why do we collect Tax prior to that?
Because it is going through your business. As far as they are concerned you are the retailer for the ammo as well, unless the seller collected the sales tax.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:04 PM
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Gotcha!
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