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  #1  
Old 04-04-2014, 2:48 PM
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Default Undetermined Status After 30 Day Delay

We've been getting a good amount of delays turn into "Undetermined" after the 30 days are up. What are other shops doing about this? Are you releasing them, canceling them, or what?
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2014, 11:08 PM
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I haven't received too many, but the 1 or 2 I did receive I released. If the state can't prove they are denied who am I to be the judge and jury.
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2014, 10:09 AM
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I have one "undetermined" right now that I don't feel great about releasing. I spoke to Renee at the DOJ yesterday, and she basically stated there is a reason there was a "delay" in the first place. I asked her what the repercussions would be to a dealer if we released the firearm without being approved and the person used it in a crime.... and she did not have an answer to that dilemma. She said that something bad would need to happen before they take a look-back at the new law.

Seems to me that they should get a better, quicker system to clear up the issues and not leave it up to us, imho.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:16 AM
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Do you guys see this happening for first time buyers? I have asked around and have not run into anyone that has been delayed.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:40 AM
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I had one and released it.
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  #6  
Old 04-05-2014, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunsAndAmmoGirl View Post
I have one "undetermined" right now that I don't feel great about releasing. I spoke to Renee at the DOJ yesterday, and she basically stated there is a reason there was a "delay" in the first place. I asked her what the repercussions would be to a dealer if we released the firearm without being approved and the person used it in a crime.... and she did not have an answer to that dilemma. She said that something bad would need to happen before they take a look-back at the new law.

Seems to me that they should get a better, quicker system to clear up the issues and not leave it up to us, imho.
Here's the reason I've heard of or seen delays:
1) DOJ Database sucks and they can't identify the buyer
2) Buyer has been approved for 3 firearms one in the most recent 30 days and then delayed
3) DOJ can't tell one person from another with a common name

Here's another thing to think about. The real crooks aren't doing background checks so who would you be really denying?

Ultimately, it's up to you regardless of what DOJ says though. Every business needs to do what they are comfortable with.
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  #7  
Old 04-06-2014, 11:32 PM
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We've had a good amount of them. I don't know of any customer's whom we've withheld guns from, SOP is if the DOJ cannot find a reason to deny them then we are to release it. I know DOJ it trying their best to crack down on FFLs. Don't do it if it makes you feel uncomfortable, but at the same time it isn't a denial either.
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2014, 10:29 AM
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Don't forget that an undetermined status can be caused by the firearm status being undetermined, not just the buyer. If the buyer is a known person to you with no prior issues, it could be the gun. DOJ WON'T TELL YOU THIS. I have had two situations thus far, both still pending, where the buyers were known to me as good to go, they made multiple purchases, one of which was a transfer, and they were delayed on that transfer, but not their other two DROS's. This immediately points to the gun as the culprit, but DOJ still won't disclose any information. Both cases were ultimately returned as "undetermined". Now what? I know the buyers are good, but not the guns, yet DOJ says I can release them at my discretion. WTF?!

Me thinks DOJ is trying to set up dealers.....
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  #9  
Old 05-06-2014, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
Don't forget that an undetermined status can be caused by the firearm status being undetermined, not just the buyer. If the buyer is a known person to you with no prior issues, it could be the gun. DOJ WON'T TELL YOU THIS. I have had two situations thus far, both still pending, where the buyers were known to me as good to go, they made multiple purchases, one of which was a transfer, and they were delayed on that transfer, but not their other two DROS's. This immediately points to the gun as the culprit, but DOJ still won't disclose any information. Both cases were ultimately returned as "undetermined". Now what? I know the buyers are good, but not the guns, yet DOJ says I can release them at my discretion. WTF?!

Me thinks DOJ is trying to set up dealers.....
How did you confirm it was the gun? None of the instances I had were ever private party guns. They were factory new Glocks or Spikes Tactical receivers.
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  #10  
Old 05-06-2014, 11:02 AM
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We recently had one come back undetermined. We made him do a re-dros due to some other issues around it being started in 2013. When he re-drosed, he actually got delayed and then denied the second time around. We have decided not to release undetermined files.
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  #11  
Old 05-06-2014, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite Armory View Post
We recently had one come back undetermined. We made him do a re-dros due to some other issues around it being started in 2013. When he re-drosed, he actually got delayed and then denied the second time around. We have decided not to release undetermined files.
So what do you do with the customer? Full refund of all money down and refund of dros fee? If the customer was not delayed or denied, and you decide not to release the firearm, that is your choice but not your customers fault.
Maybe dealers need to start withholding Dros payments to the state on those types of actions, or requesting a refund from the state if the state can't give you a clear answer.

Last edited by DEPUTYBILL; 05-06-2014 at 3:10 PM..
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2014, 3:21 PM
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Refund of 100% money on the gun but you'd have to contact DOJ for the $25.

Apparently there is another option which is to get a live scan done and if it comes back clean, they will issue an approval.
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  #13  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
How did you confirm it was the gun? None of the instances I had were ever private party guns. They were factory new Glocks or Spikes Tactical receivers.
Each buyer had three DROS's simultaneously. Two approved, one delayed then undetermined. It can only be the gun, so I had a LEO friend run them. DOJ is worthless. They're not doing their job and willing to let stolen guns walk back out in circulation.
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  #14  
Old 05-16-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite Armory View Post
Refund of 100% money on the gun but you'd have to contact DOJ for the $25.

Apparently there is another option which is to get a live scan done and if it comes back clean, they will issue an approval.
I apologize for waking an old thread but.... I have a customer on a delay; he did the live scan, submitted it, received notification of nothing on record and they still have not released him. Given that I know this customer <he bought a gun from me last year and passed with flying colors>, he has the results of the live scan which show there is nothing on his record and I know the item in question is perfectly legal, I am going to release it to him.

What we found interesting is that the delay actually goes 31 days before changing to 'undetermined' which is not following the law that states they have 30 days to determine or change.
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Old 05-18-2014, 6:25 PM
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New gun or used gun? If used, it could be the gun and not him...

As far as I'm concerned I'm not giving DOJ any reason to f with me. Unless I receive an "approved" status, the gun stays put.

It's up to you to gauge the risk for your business.
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:10 PM
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Brand new Remington 700 frame. if it had been some one I didn't know or some strange online deal I wouldn't have released it.
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Old 05-20-2014, 1:13 PM
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Old 05-22-2014, 6:51 AM
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One attorney's opinion who has no skin in the game.

Never mind that an undetermined can be a stolen gun and DOJ won't tell you that. Do you suggest a dealer deliver a stolen gun?
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Old 05-22-2014, 8:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
One attorney's opinion who has no skin in the game.

Never mind that an undetermined can be a stolen gun and DOJ won't tell you that. Do you suggest a dealer deliver a stolen gun?
So I hope that if you get an undetermined, and are not going to release the firearm, your going to give your customer a FULL refund DROS fee and all?
If the state can't or won't give an OK, and it is a PPT are you going to refuse to return it to the seller too, because it might be stolen?
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Old 05-22-2014, 9:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
One attorney's opinion who has no skin in the game.

Never mind that an undetermined can be a stolen gun and DOJ won't tell you that. Do you suggest a dealer deliver a stolen gun?
I would opinion that it's not my problem. If it's a stolen gun and the DOJ doesn't have a reason to tell me, then logic would say that they would at least notify local PD to come and pick it up. Failing both of those, then yes, I would deliver it. The DOJ knows where to go get the gun should they really care about stolen firearms.

You would be doing nothing wrong releasing it. If you KNEW it was a stolen gun that's different, but here you are speculating. DOJ isn't telling you so you really have no idea why the person is Undetermined. It could be they had 3 different people doing the 3 background checks for the 3 firearms at the same time. Maybe someone is just slow to click "approved" on their end for the 1 out of 3 firearms. Maybe they are doing a trace and are waiting for some FFL in Omaha to respond.. who knows...., but it seems the federal government and rest of the nation doesn't have a problem with tons of stolen guns being released when delays happen at the federal NICS level and that only gives those agencies 3 days not 30 to resolve..

I'd be much more worried if there were court cases of anyone being sued because a "delay/undetermined" turned into a "good guy" getting a "stolen gun" that was then used in a bad way that caused the transferring FFL to be sued.

To my limited knowledge that does not exist..

but again...it's up to you how you handle. and as others have suggested if you don't go through with it at least refund fees, etc..
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:28 AM
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I have had a firearm flag stolen. I was contacted via DOJ and the local PD and told not to release the firearm to either the buyer or the seller. PD picked it up.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:46 AM
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I have had a firearm flag stolen. I was contacted via DOJ and the local PD and told not to release the firearm to either the buyer or the seller. PD picked it up.
That's what I would hope would happen in the event a firearm is flagged stolen.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:58 AM
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We release them all. Worst thing you can do is release some and not others. All kinds of potential discrimination issues.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
One attorney's opinion who has no skin in the game.

Never mind that an undetermined can be a stolen gun and DOJ won't tell you that. Do you suggest a dealer deliver a stolen gun?
Is that a serious question?

As far as I can see, no mention of stolen firearms presented in the original question. But if it's known that a gun is stolen, why not inform DOJ/PD and let LE do their job?

-Brandon
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Old 05-23-2014, 6:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
That's what I would hope would happen in the event a firearm is flagged stolen.
You would hope, but that's not what has happened. I deduced on my own and with help from a LEO friend that the gun was stolen. The DOJ provided no information whatsoever. Simply "undetermined". They did however provide that the seller, since this was handled as a PPT, was denied. I contacted SJPD who verified that it was stolen and even gave me a case number, but they didn't really give two ****s either. They told me take it to my local PD. Talking with my LEO contact, he indicated all they would do is provide a courtesy report to SJ and send them the gun. His take was that SJ would likely circular file the report and send the gun for destruction. (Oh my word! An AW, although it's not. It's an M1A Scout)

I'm a bit indifferent about what happens to the gun and my buyer has of course been refunded, but what my point is here and what worries me the most is understanding what motive DOJ has for not providing the dealer information as to why a DROS is undetermined.

Seeing as they are starting to make things up as they go along (1-30 restriction for C&R/COE holders) and interpret laws to suit themselves, when will they start using this "at the dealer's discretion" thing to start targeting us? I'm afraid that they were forced to comply with this 30 day limit and now want to use it against those that fought for it. I can see no other motive to staying hush about a stolen weapon and essentially entrapping a dealer into delivering stolen goods.

This is my reasoning for not releasing anything that comes back undetermined. Fortunately I have only faced this so far with the stolen gun and once previous with a gun that was reported stolen, but in fact, was not. (That has since been fixed, but with ZERO information or help from DOJ.)

I'm not trying to infringe on anyone's rights or screw anyone out of their money. I am simply very concerned about my business and the direction that DOJ is headed with their apparent secret agenda.

Seller beware!
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Old 05-23-2014, 6:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Is that a serious question?

As far as I can see, no mention of stolen firearms presented in the original question. But if it's known that a gun is stolen, why not inform DOJ/PD and let LE do their job?

-Brandon
You seemed to have missed my point. DOJ and LE already know it's stolen and know where it is, but neither of them seem to care. They are NOT doing their jobs. It's seems as if they WANT it to be delivered. (Shades of fast and furious)

What scares me is the general consensus here of "deliver it unless they tell you not to"
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Old 05-23-2014, 6:57 AM
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Do you have the name of the original reporting agency? In a perfect world if a stolen gun is located, the original reporting agency is sent that information, and that agency would take steps to recover that firearm. If I was the owner of that gun that reported it stolen, I would be pissed if the gun was recovered and not returned to me! If you know it is stolen, you should contact the agency your shop is at and insist that they take possession of it. I would send a letter to them as well to cover yourself. I find it hard to believe that a agency would not want to recover a stolen firearm in their jurisdiction.
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Old 05-24-2014, 7:13 AM
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I have had two. Contacted the DOJ after each and aaas basically told "it was up to me". I had nothing to base continued withholding the gun so I have released them both.

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Old 05-24-2014, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
You seemed to have missed my point. DOJ and LE already know it's stolen and know where it is, but neither of them seem to care. They are NOT doing their jobs. It's seems as if they WANT it to be delivered. (Shades of fast and furious)

What scares me is the general consensus here of "deliver it unless they tell you not to"
I think the "deliver it unless they tell you not to" is reasonable in the sense that the rest of us have no idea if a gun is stolen. You did a lot of extra work to find that information out. That changes things. If I know a gun is stolen I won't deliver it. Also, in your case the only left to do is to turn it into PD because the seller was denied as well and that might be why they are not coming to get it.

If I ever get interviewed and asked "Were you reasonably aware the gun was stolen?" I can say no, because as you have stated repeatedly, the DOJ gives no indication why someone is undetermined. This would be no different then if you were doing an FFL transfer from out of state and later an ATF trace came back to you about that same gun being stolen.

It's not your bad that the "authorities" that are responsible for tracking this stuff can't do their job.
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2014, 10:31 AM
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Eddy's Shooting Sports Eddy's Shooting Sports is offline
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I think the "deliver it unless they tell you not to" is reasonable in the sense that the rest of us have no idea if a gun is stolen. You did a lot of extra work to find that information out. That changes things. If I know a gun is stolen I won't deliver it. Also, in your case the only left to do is to turn it into PD because the seller was denied as well and that might be why they are not coming to get it.

If I ever get interviewed and asked "Were you reasonably aware the gun was stolen?" I can say no, because as you have stated repeatedly, the DOJ gives no indication why someone is undetermined. This would be no different then if you were doing an FFL transfer from out of state and later an ATF trace came back to you about that same gun being stolen.

It's not your bad that the "authorities" that are responsible for tracking this stuff can't do their job.
Let's say I didn't follow up and just delivered this rifle to my customer as I am allowed to under the law? Later, he gets pulled over, rifle is checked, and he gets hauled off to jail for possession of stolen property.

Not a good situation and likely one that could get my *** sued. Nobody will go after DOJ for negligence if there is a dealer they can blame.

DOJ really sucks.
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  #31  
Old 05-25-2014, 12:15 PM
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ugimports ugimports is offline
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Originally Posted by Eddy's Shooting Sports View Post
Let's say I didn't follow up and just delivered this rifle to my customer as I am allowed to under the law? Later, he gets pulled over, rifle is checked, and he gets hauled off to jail for possession of stolen property.

Not a good situation and likely one that could get my *** sued. Nobody will go after DOJ for negligence if there is a dealer they can blame.

DOJ really sucks.
So does this mean you don't do any transfers unless you source the firearm from a distributor or mfg? How is this your scenario any different if they were "Approved" and later the gun was found out to be stolen. The exact same would apply to what you're saying, wouldn't it?

e.g., "Nobody will go after DOJ for negligence if there is a dealer they can blame"

I guess I don't understand why "Undetermined" would be any different than "Approved" in relieving you from potential of DOJ effing up and blaming you.
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Old 08-10-2014, 9:47 AM
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