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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:26 PM
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Default Oregon permit arrived today

No, not from Cow Palace show. I stopped in Grants Pass 10 days ago and submitted my application to the OTHER Sheriff happily giving permits to non-residents. With this permit, I am now covered in:

Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Delaware
Florida Georgia Idaho Indiana Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota
Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska New Hampshire New Mexico
North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania
South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont
Virginia Washington West Virginia Wyoming

Nice feeling!
  #2  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Paindoc View Post
No, not from Cow Palace show. I stopped in Grants Pass 10 days ago and submitted my application to the OTHER Sheriff happily giving permits to non-residents. With this permit, I am now covered in:

Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Delaware
Florida Georgia Idaho Indiana Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota
Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska New Hampshire New Mexico
North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania
South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont
Virginia Washington West Virginia Wyoming

Nice feeling!
Congratulations. Don't think you're covered in CA though!
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:53 PM
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Congratulations. Don't think you're covered in CA though!
He is NOW covered in that list... which I'm taking to mean he already posesses as CA CCW, and has just gotten the oregon to flesh out his CCW capabilities a bit more.

Congrats and enjoy.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:55 PM
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Well, I never thought he might have a CA CCW. Double congratulations if you do!
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:01 AM
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very nice
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  #6  
Old 11-19-2010, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Paindoc View Post

Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Delaware
Florida Georgia Idaho Indiana Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota
Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska New Hampshire New Mexico
North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania
South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont
Virginia Washington West Virginia Wyoming

Nice feeling!
Please re-confirm: As far as I know by reading NM CCW policy before our visit last month, if you have Calif, Nevada, Utah CCW, you cannot carry concealed in public in New Mexico. However, the car you are driving is an extension of your home, so you are fine inside the car.
Does Oregon CCW cover you in New Mexico?
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  #7  
Old 11-19-2010, 8:30 AM
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The Florida license is accepted in New Mexico.
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  #8  
Old 11-19-2010, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Paindoc View Post
No, not from Cow Palace show. I stopped in Grants Pass 10 days ago and submitted my application to the OTHER Sheriff happily giving permits to non-residents. With this permit, I am now covered in:

Alabama Alaska Arizona Arkansas California Colorado Delaware
Florida Georgia Idaho Indiana Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota
Mississippi Missouri Montana Nebraska New Hampshire New Mexico
North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania
South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Vermont
Virginia Washington West Virginia Wyoming

Nice feeling!
Do Colorado recognize California, or do you have a Colorado CCW? They only recognize CCW's from states where you are a resident.
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  #9  
Old 11-19-2010, 10:10 AM
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The Florida license is accepted in New Mexico.
Non-residence Florida license?
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2010, 10:39 AM
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You can open carry in New Mexico. Problem solved.
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:09 AM
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You can open carry in New Mexico. Problem solved.
Yah, but I bet locals would be staring at you with a big ? The wife and I was there for over two weeks both urban and rural areas and I never saw anyone wearing openly.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:12 AM
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You can open carry in New Mexico. Problem solved.
Negative.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:16 AM
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Yah, but I bet locals would be staring at you with a big ? The wife and I was there for over two weeks both urban and rural areas and I never saw anyone wearing openly.
Big Effing deal. Why is it that so many people care that people will look at them funny for carrying? I PREFER to OC, and dirty looks are not going to stop me. As a matter of fact, they encourage me.
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  #14  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:17 AM
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Negative.
Negative what?

Negative you can't OC in NM? Negative problem not solved? Why not?
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
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Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
  #15  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:24 AM
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USACarry map shows NM as accepting Florida non-resident permits. Of course, laws change and the Internet isn't the best source for legal advice....
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  #16  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:28 AM
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Negative what?

Negative you can't OC in NM? Negative problem not solved? Why not?
Negative on the "problem solved". Some of us choose not to open carry for various reasons. Carrying concealed gives me an advantage over an assailant that I don't want to sacrifice. Also, open carry draws attention. I don't want attention. I want to be the gray man. No one notices me walking in or walking out. Half the battle when it comes to avoiding attacks is being inconspicuous.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
Big Effing deal. Why is it that so many people care that people will look at them funny for carrying? I PREFER to OC, and dirty looks are not going to stop me. As a matter of fact, they encourage me.
Simmer down, all I am doing was posting my experience and nothing to do with my own feeling. If I had seen a few in rural areas such as hiking along the gorge of Rio Grande, I might have open carried as I had my Kimber and OWB holster at the time. The big ? does not mean dirty look by the way.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
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Yah, but I bet locals would be staring at you with a big ?
So?
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
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Do Colorado recognize California, or do you have a Colorado CCW? They only recognize CCW's from states where you are a resident.
Colorado does not recognize California permits, does not recognize non-resident permits from other states, nor does it issue non-resident permits.

But it is an open carry state, and may have a vehicle exemption similar to New Mexico.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
Big Effing deal. Why is it that so many people care that people will look at them funny for carrying? I PREFER to OC, and dirty looks are not going to stop me. As a matter of fact, they encourage me.
This attitude is how you turn a soccer mom who doesn't even think about guns into an anti IMO, and it turns out soccer moms vote.

Last edited by stix213; 11-19-2010 at 11:40 AM..
  #21  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Colorado does not recognize California permits, does not recognize non-resident permits from other states, nor does it issue non-resident permits.

But it is an open carry state, and may have a vehicle exemption similar to New Mexico.
That's roughly what I thought.

Just want to make sure that the OP realizes that he isn't covered in Colorado unless he's a Colorado resident. Looking back, I didn't phrase it as well as I could have done. And, I'm talking concealed carry, not open carry.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:42 AM
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Negative on the "problem solved". Some of us choose not to open carry for various reasons. Carrying concealed gives me an advantage over an assailant that I don't want to sacrifice. Also, open carry draws attention. I don't want attention. I want to be the gray man. No one notices me walking in or walking out. Half the battle when it comes to avoiding attacks is being inconspicuous.
It is amazing to me that the anti-gun society in the PRK has influenced people's thinking in this way.

If YOU want to conceal because of YOUR own reasons, more power to you, that's fine with me. But please do not put out as FACT things that have never been proven and are very much in dispute. CC does not necessarily give you ANY advantage over an assailant that OC does not. And many would say (including me) that DETERENCE, not being inconspicuous, is half the battle when it comes to AVOIDING attacks.
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:44 AM
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It is amazing to me that the anti-gun society in the PRK has influenced people's thinking in this way.

If YOU want to conceal because of YOUR own reasons, more power to you, that's fine with me. But please do not put out as FACT things that have never been proven and are very much in dispute. CC does not necessarily give you ANY advantage over an assailant that OC does not. And many would say (including me) that DETERENCE, not being inconspicuous, is half the battle when it comes to AVOIDING attacks.
What about frightening the voting sheeple?
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:46 AM
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This attitude is how you turn a soccer mom who doesn't even think about guns into an anti IMO, and it turns out soccer moms vote.
Again, big hairy deal. We have been tip toeing around 2A issues in CA for far too long now precisely so that we wouldn't turn those voting "soccer moms" into anti's. How has that worked out for us? Not all that great huh? Voting has nothing to do with this. The ONLY place we will get results in this anti self defense establishment that we call California is through the courts, not the legislature.
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not
Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
It is amazing to me that the anti-gun society in the PRK has influenced people's thinking in this way.

If YOU want to conceal because of YOUR own reasons, more power to you, that's fine with me. But please do not put out as FACT things that have never been proven and are very much in dispute. CC does not necessarily give you ANY advantage over an assailant that OC does not. And many would say (including me) that DETERENCE, not being inconspicuous, is half the battle when it comes to AVOIDING attacks.
True, when I flew in SAC we sure as sh** didn't have those B-52s concealed. A bunch of bad a** deterrents sitting in the alert "tree" . I'm all about the visible deterrent.

If a criminal sticks a loaded gun in your back, LOC or CC you're equally screwed. UOC you're double screwed, but that's the only option available to me, for now.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
It is amazing to me that the anti-gun society in the PRK has influenced people's thinking in this way.

If YOU want to conceal because of YOUR own reasons, more power to you, that's fine with me. But please do not put out as FACT things that have never been proven and are very much in dispute. CC does not necessarily give you ANY advantage over an assailant that OC does not. And many would say (including me) that DETERENCE, not being inconspicuous, is half the battle when it comes to AVOIDING attacks.
Hmmm, you seem to be very passionate about this subject. I am assuming this because of your use of caps to emphasize some of the things you are saying. Honestly, I don't care if you OC. I think it's a right, and it should be protected. If you don't mind everyone in the joint noticing you then that's fine. But your "problem solved" comment seemed to suggest that it should be enough for everyone, and it isn't. You can have your assumptions about the best way to defend yourself, but being conspicuous is not a good way to do it. That's a fact. Sorry bud.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:49 AM
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True, when I flew in SAC we sure as sh** didn't have those B-52s concealed.
That's kind of applying false comparison to this situation. The fact is you CAN'T conceal B52s. At least not easily. As a lone person with a background in Reconnaissance, if no one knows I'm there, they can't attack me. F<>ck yeah, let's do that.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:51 AM
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Again, big hairy deal. We have been tip toeing around 2A issues in CA for far too long now precisely so that we wouldn't turn those voting "soccer moms" into anti's. How has that worked out for us? Not all that great huh? Voting has nothing to do with this. The ONLY place we will get results in this anti self defense establishment that we call California is through the courts, not the legislature.
I'd say in the last 5 or so years we now have AR's and AK's legally sold in stores and relatively common, LEO's being educated and legally configured rifles defended, and CCW's appear to be just a few legal actions away from being easily available. Sounds like progress to me, but it only takes 1 new law passed to F it all up, and riling up the populous is exactly how terrible laws get passed quickly.

If you want to OC, go right ahead. We need that right defended too, but I think by doing so you are hindering progress rather than helping.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:59 AM
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Hmmm, you seem to be very passionate about this subject. I am assuming this because of your use of caps to emphasize some of the things you are saying. Honestly, I don't care if you OC. I think it's a right, and it should be protected. If you don't mind everyone in the joint noticing you then that's fine. But your "problem solved" comment seemed to suggest that it should be enough for everyone, and it isn't. You can have your assumptions about the best way to defend yourself, but being conspicuous is not a good way to do it. That's a fact. Sorry bud.
WOW! That's a fact? According to whom? Do you have a cite of some statistics from somewhere? I'm guessing not, because this is most certainly not a fact, it is your opinion.

Tell me something. If CC, and being inconspicuous is the best way to defend yourself from those that want to harm you, then why do the police OC, and wear conspicuous uniforms, and drive conspicuous marked vehicles? If CC is really the best way, shouldn't they all be undercover in plain clothes and CC'ing?

I'll tell you what IS a fact. It is a fact that OC has certain tactical advantages over CC in an armed defense situation. Not the least of which being no clothing getting in the way of your draw motion, less possibility of the weapon snagging when presenting, and also being able to carry a larger, more tactically viable weapon.

The only reason to CC is if you feel you can't OC for some reason. If people looking at you funny is that reason for you, or in your personal opinion it makes YOU safer, then fine. But don't tell me I am less safe when I OC because of supposed "facts" for which there is no support other than personal opinion.
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
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Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:04 PM
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I'd say in the last 5 or so years we now have AR's and AK's legally sold in stores and relatively common, LEO's being educated and legally configured rifles defended, and CCW's appear to be just a few legal actions away from being easily available. Sounds like progress to me, but it only takes 1 new law passed to F it all up, and riling up the populous is exactly how terrible laws get passed quickly.

If you want to OC, go right ahead. We need that right defended too, but I think by doing so you are hindering progress rather than helping.
Go to a gun store in any free state, look at the normally configured AR's and AK's they have on their shelves, and then tell me we are making "progress" in California.

The fact that deformed and mutilated AR's and AK's are now being sold in stores legally here is not because of the voting sheeple. Neither is the fact that we are getting close to going virtual shall issue. This has all been accomplished through the courts. Not by cowtowing to voting soccer moms' sensitivities.
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not
Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
WOW! That's a fact? According to whom? Do you have a cite of some statistics from somewhere? I'm guessing not, because this is most certainly not a fact, it is your opinion.

Tell me something. If CC, and being inconspicuous is the best way to defend yourself from those that want to harm you, then why do the police OC, and wear conspicuous uniforms, and drive conspicuous marked vehicles? If CC is really the best way, shouldn't they all be undercover in plain clothes and CC'ing?

I'll tell you what IS a fact. It is a fact that OC has certain tactical advantages over CC in an armed defense situation. Not the least of which being no clothing getting in the way of your draw motion, less possibility of the weapon snagging when presenting, and also being able to carry a larger, more tactically viable weapon.

The only reason to CC is if you feel you can't OC for some reason. If people looking at you funny is that reason for you, or in your personal opinion it makes YOU safer, then fine. But don't tell me I am less safe when I OC because of supposed "facts" for which there is no support other than personal opinion.
Say the two of us are having coffee at a denny's and Mr Badguy and pals walks in the door with a rifle out because he has decided he needs to kill someone today. You are OC'ing, I am CC'ing. Which one is Mr. Badguy shooting first? Which one of us is actually going have time to return fire?

I'll send my condolences to your family
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:08 PM
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WOW! That's a fact? According to whom? Do you have a cite of some statistics from somewhere? I'm guessing not, because this is most certainly not a fact, it is your opinion.

Tell me something. If CC, and being inconspicuous is the best way to defend yourself from those that want to harm you, then why do the police OC, and wear conspicuous uniforms, and drive conspicuous marked vehicles? If CC is really the best way, shouldn't they all be undercover in plain clothes and CC'ing?
lol, calm down bro. It's just a discussion. Police have to be uniformed. Having uniformed police can be a deterrent to crime, but it doesn't make the police safer. That's why they wear body armor. On the other hand, police aren't always uniformed. When they go under cover they do so because it is safer.

Why is it safer? Because when they put themselves in certain situations it's better to be inconspicuous. The cognitive problem you seem to be having is that you are applying very specific ideas to widely varying situations. That doesn't really help with understanding the situation.

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Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
I'll tell you what IS a fact. It is a fact that OC has certain tactical advantages over CC in an armed defense situation. Not the least of which being no clothing getting in the way of your draw motion, less possibility of the weapon snagging when presenting, and also being able to carry a larger, more tactically viable weapon.

The only reason to CC is if you feel you can't OC for some reason. If people looking at you funny is that reason for you, or in your personal opinion it makes YOU safer, then fine. But don't tell me I am less safe when I OC because of supposed "facts" for which there is no support other than personal opinion.
I love when people use the word tactical. It's almost lost all meaning in this day and age. What is your tactical background anyway?


Your idea might be true when you already know you are a target, such as being a Soldier in a hostile environment, or being a police officer. However, the problem is that drawing a weapon should be a last resort, used when your life or the life of someone else, is threatened. If someone wants my money I am going to give it to them. If someone wants my car I am going to give it to them. If someone wants my life I am going to have to defend myself. OC automatically ups the ante.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
Say the two of us are having coffee at a denny's and Mr Badguy and pals walks in the door with a rifle out because he has decided he needs to kill someone today. You are OC'ing, I am CC'ing. Which one is Mr. Badguy shooting first? Which one of us is actually going have time to return fire?

I'll send my condolences to your family
Cite? Any news stories of this actually happening in large numbers? Didn't think so.

Also, what about the cop sitting in that same coffee shop? He's gonna be dead too right? So all police should now start CC'ing undercover to avoid getting shot by rifle wielding coffee shop shooter guy?

The truth is, that Just like the cop sitting there, the rifle wielding guy sees my gun, he is going to either wait till I leave, or go attack somewhere else. Unless he's crazy and doesn't care, in which case it really doesn't make a difference. I'll trade the extra speed with which I can draw and present, and the deterrent value of an exposed weapon over the "safety" of anonymity any day.

And don't worry about my family, I plan on being around for them for a long time to come...
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not
Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura

Last edited by J.D.Allen; 11-19-2010 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
Cite? Any news stories of this actually happening in large numbers? Didn't think so.
You seem to be obsessed with citations and the like. It's about experience, dude. I can't cite any news stories to you that would tell you that SOSR works in combat situations, but I know it does because of experience... So I'm not sure exactly what you want, but I do know that it is a fallacious way of thinking.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:16 PM
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JD really isn't interested in a discussion
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:17 PM
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JD really isn't interested in a discussion
I'm getting that impression. I am hoping he will answer the question about what his tactical background is though. That I'm interested in...
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Colorado does not recognize California permits, does not recognize non-resident permits from other states, nor does it issue non-resident permits.

But it is an open carry state, and may have a vehicle exemption similar to New Mexico.
Wow!
Didn't mean to start a controversial thread. The list I posted was the list of states covered by the combination of Utah and Florida permits, with the addition of CA and Oregon. It is from carryconcealed.com, and I had not checked for more recent changes.

Thanks for the correction for Colorado. Colorado does have a provision exempting lawful carry in your vehicle. I believe Colorado changed their recognition of other permits due to states having lax requirements for getting a permit as a non-resident.

Does anyone have any other changes or corrections to my list? Wouldn't want to make a stupid mistake.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OneSevenDeuce View Post
You seem to be obsessed with citations and the like. It's about experience, dude. I can't cite any news stories to you that would tell you that SOSR works in combat situations, but I know it does because of experience... So I'm not sure exactly what you want, but I do know that it is a fallacious way of thinking.
Then answer the question. Why do cops, and troops in combat not conceal?

And BTW... you have your experience, I have mine. In my experience, deterrent value of an exposed weapon is real. I have been attacked when noone could see a weapon on me. I have never been attacked when my weapon was exposed.

As for my "obsession" with cites...I only ask for them because you keep mentioning "facts". Anecdotal stuff is exactly how the anti's argue against the 2A. "Facts" tha the general public accepts as such are established by supporting information. Not personal experience.
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the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is
whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not
Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:20 PM
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I don't wish to enter into a debate but I'll gladly point out that there was an open carrier who was robbed at gunpoint.
Quote:
MILWAUKEE - A Milwaukee man found out the hard way that carrying a gun for protection doesn't always keep you safe. In fact, it may have made him a target.
The 34-year-old man legally owned a handgun and carried it out in the open in his holster for protection.
Neighbors say they knew he was always armed.
"It was kind of scary to just see him walking around all the time with that gun kind of just out in the open," said Shambria Mayham Autman. She lives near Teutonia and Good Hope and said they called him "The guy with the gun."
But it wasn't scary for at least one person who robbed "The guy with the gun" at gunpoint.
I guess the criminal wasn't deterred by the gun.

I know of several other cases from reading historical academic research which I can cite too if I have the time.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
Then answer the question. Why do cops, and troops in combat not conceal?

And BTW... you have your experience, I have mine. In my experience, deterrent value of an exposed weapon is real. I have been attacked when noone could see a weapon on me. I have never been attacked when my weapon was exposed.

As for my "obsession" with cites...I only ask for them because you keep mentioning "facts". Anecdotal stuff is exactly how the anti's argue against the 2A. "Facts" tha the general public accepts as such are established by supporting information. Not personal experience.
What is your tactical background?
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