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  #561  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DiamondDan73 View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before. I just picked up my CCW packet from the Fontana PD. Do I have to go thru them first? Or do I just go straight to the San Bernardino Sheriff?
You will need your Fontana rejection letter when you have the Sheriff interview. I'd go pick the Sheriff packet and get on the list. Then turn in the PD packet. Fontana took about 30 days to get mine done.
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  #562  
Old 06-15-2013, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ewcmr2 View Post
Oh, twist my arm, "force" me to buy a new gun!
I agree but the one she wants is a grand...
That's gonna take a while...
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  #563  
Old 06-15-2013, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jww View Post
You will need your Fontana rejection letter when you have the Sheriff interview. I'd go pick the Sheriff packet and get on the list. Then turn in the PD packet. Fontana took about 30 days to get mine done.
Thanks for the heads up.
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  #564  
Old 06-15-2013, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jww View Post
You will need your Fontana rejection letter when you have the Sheriff interview. I'd go pick the Sheriff packet and get on the list. Then turn in the PD packet. Fontana took about 30 days to get mine done.
I'm still curious about this one. The packet says to have a rejection letter but from what I understand, we're not required to have to go to a local PD first. Is this still true do we still have to go through this hoop?

Also anyone have any experience with Ontario PD?
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  #565  
Old 06-16-2013, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bcsquare View Post
I'm still curious about this one. The packet says to have a rejection letter but from what I understand, we're not required to have to go to a local PD first. Is this still true do we still have to go through this hoop?
At the time of my interview, I had to have a letter from Fontana. It really wasn't a big deal. It took me 10 minutes to fill it out I think I waited 3-4 weeks for my letter to come back. They also sent back all of the checks I left.
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  #566  
Old 06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Default Lasergrips not allowed if they cover a serial?

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum but have been browsing around for some time.

I just finished my first CCW interview this morning, and one of the ladies in the office (not the investigator assigned to my permit) got very upset that I had an aftermarket grip on my gun. I have a CrimsonTrace lasergrip on a S&W M&P 9c, and the laser diode just covers the serial number on the frame. I took the grip off in 3 seconds and she handed the firearm over to the investigator and told me "you can't use those grips on your gun if they cover the serial number, so don't ever carry with it." I let it go while I was there, but the more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.

Why would an easily removed piece of equipment that covers a serial number (only while installed) be unacceptable during carry? It doesn't modify the serial, it doesn't permanently alter or cover it, and 3 seconds and a twist of the takedown tool is all it takes to remove it to reveal the number. Is this just a case of an overzealous office worker that didn't like being inconvenienced, or am I not actually allowed to carry a weapon with the serial number temporarily covered?
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  #567  
Old 06-19-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mrman5917 View Post
Why would an easily removed piece of equipment that covers a serial number (only while installed) be unacceptable during carry? It doesn't modify the serial, it doesn't permanently alter or cover it, and 3 seconds and a twist of the takedown tool is all it takes to remove it to reveal the number. Is this just a case of an overzealous office worker that didn't like being inconvenienced, or am I not actually allowed to carry a weapon with the serial number temporarily covered?
because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.


537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred
fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding
six months.
(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty
dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one
year.
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  #568  
Old 06-19-2013, 10:37 AM
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Thanks for the reply, I guess these grips get to go back after just receiving them yesterday. Sigh.
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  #569  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.
So I guess putting a gun in a holster with the serial number obstructed by the holster is illegal too? Or, "concealed" under clothing? By your body?

I'm pretty sure there's difference between "concealed" and "covered".
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  #570  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDavid View Post
So I guess putting a gun in a holster with the serial number obstructed by the holster is illegal too? Or, "concealed" under clothing? By your body?

I'm pretty sure there's difference between "concealed" and "covered".
right, concealed by something temporary like a holster, clothing, in a guncase/safe is different that covered by something that takes tools to remove.

not saying that anytime you have grips or a tac-light covering a serial number that you are going to be arrested, just saying that per the PC, it might be violation. I was just giving a legal reason why the the LEA flipped out over the covered serial number.
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  #571  
Old 07-01-2013, 11:19 PM
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What is good cause for app?


Just Saying!
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  #572  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
because it does technically violate the PC against covering serial numbers.
537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred
fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding
six months.
(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty
dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one
year.
I usually find myself fully agreeing with your observations, but I think this one needs a reconsideration.

(Sorry for the length, but I'm waiting for the Bride and may not have time to edit).

Title 13 (Sections 441 through 593), deals with crimes against property.
Chapter 8 of Title 13 deals with false person action and cheats. This Chapter includes section 537e.

First, the use of "concealed" in your quote does not relate to serial numbers. It refers to concealing property which has altered serial numbers. One method of "altering" a number is to conceal it, and is later articulated. However, the context of the section indicates the purpose of concealment is to cheat or defraud. Not to simply enhance the weapon.

If one reads the context of the Chapter, this is evident.

Second, statutes must be read as a whole, but you have only provided part of the citation. The next paragraphs give more specific context:

"537e.
(b) For purposes of this subdivision, "personal property"
includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano,
or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.
(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other
household appliance or furnishings.
(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other
office equipment or furnishings.
(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or
other part of a computer.
(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or
scientific equipment.
(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or
recreational equipment.
(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material,
or piece of apparatus or equipment.
(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.
(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.


While the first sentence allows the addition of other property to be considered in this definition, the presented items give a clear picture of the type of items covered. With such a large span of items, it would have been very simple (and not unreasonable) for the Legislature to include firearms if that was their intent. Since they left them out, one must surmise that the Legislature did not see a need here, probably because Penal Code section 23900 has firearm serial numbers "covered".

23900. Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.


Moreover, the actions of the law enforcement personnel, in spite of the clerk's admonition, do not comport with what the statute tells them to do:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrman5917 View Post
...one of the ladies in the office (not the investigator assigned to my permit) got very upset that I had an aftermarket grip on my gun. I have a CrimsonTrace lasergrip on a S&W M&P 9c, and the laser diode just covers the serial number on the frame. I took the grip off in 3 seconds and she handed the firearm over to the investigator and told me "you can't use those grips on your gun if they cover the serial number, so don't ever carry with it." I let it go while I was there, but the more I think about it, the more upset I get about it.
If this were a violation, Penal Code 537e. (c) is explicit to their actions:
" (c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the
custody of a peace officer it shall
become subject to the provision
of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2,
relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property
subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled
property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being
disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved
in, or permanently affixed to it.


The fact that law enforcement was aware of this covering, but did not arrest the owner and confiscate the weapon, as directed under subdivision (c) clearly shows this instance is not covered under this statute.

The clerk was wrong. The grips are good to go (unless lasers are not allowed by the IA).

Cheers.

JR

The above is an evaluation of written code and a specific incident by a rank amateur who holds no professional certifications to expound on anything. It's value may or may not be worth what you paid to receive it.
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  #573  
Old 07-02-2013, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
right, concealed by something temporary like a holster, clothing, in a guncase/safe is different that covered by something that takes tools to remove.

not saying that anytime you have grips or a tac-light covering a serial number that you are going to be arrested, just saying that per the PC, it might be violation. I was just giving a legal reason why the the LEA flipped out over the covered serial number.

I have to disagree...

Think about older Smith & Wesson revolvers, the stocks (grips) covered the serial number. To read the serial number the stocks had to be removed....
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  #574  
Old 07-03-2013, 9:11 AM
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Dvrjon that's essentially what I had been coming to get from others I had been talking to, that covering the number isn't in and of itself a problem unless it's being done with or to assist with some sort of subversion. I think I caught the clerk on a bad day and just happened to provide an outlet for it. During this process I'll probably leave the grips at home and just use them for when I carry which was the original intent. Don't really care to test the waters with anyone else.

That said, in my research, S&W sells an M&P9c with the CT grips pre-installed, covering the number from the factory. Only rub is that since it comes with standard capacity 12-round magazines, they don't sell it directly in CA. Their suggestion to me when I was first looking at the 9c was to purchase the CA-approved 10-round package with the grips aftermarket.
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  #575  
Old 07-03-2013, 10:27 AM
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How long is it taking to go through the process of getting a CCW in SB?
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  #576  
Old 07-03-2013, 1:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
I usually find myself fully agreeing with your observations, but I think this one needs a reconsideration.

(Sorry for the length, but I'm waiting for the Bride and may not have time to edit).

Title 13 (Sections 441 through 593), deals with crimes against property.
Chapter 8 of Title 13 deals with false person action and cheats. This Chapter includes section 537e.

First, the use of "concealed" in your quote does not relate to serial numbers. It refers to concealing property which has altered serial numbers. One method of "altering" a number is to conceal it, and is later articulated. However, the context of the section indicates the purpose of concealment is to cheat or defraud. Not to simply enhance the weapon.
in my original post, I stated "covered", not "concealed". I was refering to the covered serial number, not the concealed property.

537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number
, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
that can be minimized down to " Any person who knowingly has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer's serial number has been covered is guilty of a public offense punishable as follows:"



Quote:
If one reads the context of the Chapter, this is evident.

Second, statutes must be read as a whole, but you have only provided part of the citation. The next paragraphs give more specific context:

"537e.
(b) For purposes of this subdivision, "personal property"
includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano,
or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.
(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other
household appliance or furnishings.
(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other
office equipment or furnishings.
(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or
other part of a computer.
(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or
scientific equipment.
(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or
recreational equipment.
(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material,
or piece of apparatus or equipment.
(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.
(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.


While the first sentence allows the addition of other property to be considered in this definition, the presented items give a clear picture of the type of items covered. With such a large span of items, it would have been very simple (and not unreasonable) for the Legislature to include firearms if that was their intent. Since they left them out, one must surmise that the Legislature did not see a need here, probably because Penal Code section 23900 has firearm serial numbers "covered".

23900. Any person who changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice, on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make that change, alteration, or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
I posted what I felt was the pertinent part of the code. with the definition of "personal property" being open "not limited to", I would not automatically discount it unless there was case law on the subject.

Quote:
Moreover, the actions of the law enforcement personnel, in spite of the clerk's admonition, do not comport with what the statute tells them to do:


If this were a violation, Penal Code 537e. (c) is explicit to their actions:
" (c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the
custody of a peace officer it shall
become subject to the provision
of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2,
relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property
subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled
property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being
disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved
in, or permanently affixed to it.


The fact that law enforcement was aware of this covering, but did not arrest the owner and confiscate the weapon, as directed under subdivision (c) clearly shows this instance is not covered under this statute.
or, the LEA was being lenient (SBSO isn't LAPD) for something that could be fixed easily. Perhaps the clerk didn't want to cause drama over a minor misdemeanor over it. potentially, a good case of officer discretion when the offending part could be easily removed and made "legal".


Quote:

The clerk was wrong. The grips are good to go (unless lasers are not allowed by the IA).

Cheers.

JR

The above is an evaluation of written code and a specific incident by a rank amateur who holds no professional certifications to expound on anything. It's value may or may not be worth what you paid to receive it.
I was just giving my opinion on what the clerk might have been relying on when they told mrman it wasn't bueno.

I think if it was me, I would have asked them if it was legal for the officers to carry their Glocks with mounted tac-lights, since those cover the serial number as well (the "official" serial number on the frame).
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Last edited by ke6guj; 07-03-2013 at 1:52 PM..
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  #577  
Old 07-03-2013, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post

Think about older Smith & Wesson revolvers, the stocks (grips) covered the serial number. To read the serial number the stocks had to be removed....
true, but don't most of them have another copy of the serial number behind the yoke that can be seen when you flip out the cylinder?


just because many people cover the serial number on a firearm with accessories (shotgun side saddles being a common example) or grips, doesn't mean that it might technically be illegal. I'm not saying that you will be arrested, but it could potentially be an issue for a "by the book" LEO. mrman ran into a situation where it came up an an otherwise peaceful encounter and was told to fix it. that sounds like, if the LEO was correct in the reading of the law, officer discretion instead of "off to jail you go".
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  #578  
Old 07-03-2013, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrman5917 View Post
Dvrjon that's essentially what I had been coming to get from others I had been talking to, that covering the number isn't in and of itself a problem unless it's being done with or to assist with some sort of subversion. I think I caught the clerk on a bad day and just happened to provide an outlet for it. During this process I'll probably leave the grips at home and just use them for when I carry which was the original intent. Don't really care to test the waters with anyone else.
in my reading of 537e, I don't see where subversion is mentioned in the law, but in many cases officer discretion is going to ignore it. When the time comes to through the book at someone, that just becomes an additional item to tack on.

that said, I could see the clerk needing to tell you that you shouldn't cover the serial number because if they didn't inform you and it became an issue somehow later on, then you may try to point back to this encounter and say "I showed my gun to SBSO with the serial covered and they didn't tell me I couldn't do that, so I assumed it to be OK. If they had told me, I would have uncovered the serial number right then. I was 'entrapped' by SBSO's lack of action".

Just a hypothetical.

Quote:
That said, in my research, S&W sells an M&P9c with the CT grips pre-installed, covering the number from the factory. Only rub is that since it comes with standard capacity 12-round magazines, they don't sell it directly in CA. Their suggestion to me when I was first looking at the 9c was to purchase the CA-approved 10-round package with the grips aftermarket.
that may be true and as I mentioned before, it might take a court ruling to figure out exactly where that legal line is at with regards to installed accessories covering a firearm's serial number, when it is often done for "performance" reasons and not to conceal the firearm's info from others.
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  #579  
Old 07-03-2013, 6:05 PM
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Just to add a bit - the clerk may not have been a sworn LEO, therefore making an arrest very unlikely anyway.
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  #580  
Old 07-03-2013, 7:32 PM
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Going WAY off topic now.
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  #581  
Old 07-04-2013, 2:00 PM
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Anyone who had an interview in April hear back yet? Had an interview late April and nothing. Just trying to gauge how long the background checks are taking.
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  #582  
Old 07-04-2013, 2:53 PM
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It took 121 days for me to get a call. Since you said late April then I do guess you have another month or two left before you get the range class call.
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  #583  
Old 07-04-2013, 4:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylenol9999 View Post
It took 121 days for me to get a call. Since you said late April then I do guess you have another month or two left before you get the range class call.
Thanks for your info Tylenol! I know the told me 90 days before setting up the range date but I heard rumors it was more like 120.

Just hope I'm able to get it all knocked out before having to head overseas later this year.
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Old 07-05-2013, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
in my reading of 537e, I don't see where subversion is mentioned in the law...
That is because you are citing excerpts of the code and are not paying attention to the subject matter if the Title under which 537e falls. P.C. 537e falls under Title 13 (Sections 441 through 593), which deal with crimes against property. Chapter 8 of Title 13 deals with false person action and cheats. This Chapter includes section 537e.
False person actions and cheats are subversion.
You don't (or don't want to) understand this, but it is the fatal flaw in your reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
in my reading of 537e, ... but in many cases officer discretion is going to ignore it.
And again, you just don't want to believe. Section (c) doesn't allow discretion. It mandates the LEO confiscate the property.

Whatever, the OP understands this is not a relevant citation.

Best

JR
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  #585  
Old 07-07-2013, 1:32 AM
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Mark49 Mark49 is online now
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Default CCW renewal cost

I'm going to the SBCSD dept early on monday to renew my CCW. I remember there are three money orders, how much and who are they made payable to?

Thanks
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  #586  
Old 07-08-2013, 2:38 PM
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Anyone else get interviewed last week? Mine was on July 2nd. (Got moved all the way up from mid November!)
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  #587  
Old 07-08-2013, 4:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylenol9999 View Post
It took 121 days for me to get a call. Since you said late April then I do guess you have another month or two left before you get the range class call.
+1, I was 124 days from livescan to range class.

Anyone in the June 15th class get a card yet?
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  #588  
Old 07-08-2013, 6:03 PM
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Not yet. Aren't we going to get a call to pick it up in person, or is it coming in the mail?
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  #589  
Old 07-08-2013, 11:11 PM
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Had my interview late March and I'm scheduled for the August 10 range class. Aprox. 140 days
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  #590  
Old 07-09-2013, 2:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylenol9999 View Post
Not yet. Aren't we going to get a call to pick it up in person, or is it coming in the mail?
Pretty sure they call when it is ready for pickup.
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  #591  
Old 07-09-2013, 6:19 PM
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Is there really another $116 due when we pick up our permit ?? I was under the impression that they would be mailed and that we were done with forking out cash.
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  #592  
Old 07-09-2013, 7:07 PM
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We will find out pretty soon.
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  #593  
Old 07-10-2013, 9:46 PM
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Default Denied for being a DM suspect.

My wife and I applied for permits with the SB Sheriffs dept. She got her background check approval a little bit over two months after the interview. My background check decision languished for over a month more. Nearly a month ago I received a denial. They wouldn't tell me why except that I didn't pass the background check. I did my own investigation and the only thing that even remotely amounts to a record for me is a domestic violence call that I made where my Ex and I were getting divorced and she tried to take away something from my hands by force.

Turns out, I'm listed as a suspect in the police report.

I told my ex about it (we ended up in good terms), and she sent a letter to the SB Sheriffs dept explaining how the whole incident wasn't my fault, that I never laid my hands on her or threatened her, etc (which I didn't). She thinks the whole incident was petty anyway. I called this Monday to find out if they received my Ex's letter (she sent it a little over a week ago) but instead they told me my Ex's letter wasn't on my file, but that I had already been denied a second time.

What gives here? Guilty until proven innocent, except that in this case they seem to be not letting me prove my innocence because my Ex's letter is not even in my file! I'm debating whether or not to escalate this (file lawsuit) or wait for one of the several cases going before POTUS about carry rights to yield fruit before proceeding. What do you guys think?

I understand where the SD is coming from and how they don't want CCWs in the hands of possible DM offenders, but this is ridiculous! What's funny is that the officer that I spoke to in the PD where the report is filed couldn't even believe that they would deny me for something so minor. Is there any recourse to clearing my name as suspect? There were no arrests, no charges, nothing.

Last edited by Nopal; 07-10-2013 at 10:00 PM..
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  #594  
Old 07-10-2013, 9:53 PM
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That sucks. While I'm no expert by any means, one thing I would imagine you may have been failed for is not reporting the incident in the interview. Especially since it was related to domestic violence, which I a pretty big issue with them. I'm assuming you didn't only be the fact that it came as a surprise to you. As I said, I'm far from an expert though, I'm still waiting for my background to come back.
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  #595  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonorousAria View Post
That sucks. While I'm no expert by any means, one thing I would imagine you may have been failed for is not reporting the incident in the interview. Especially since it was related to domestic violence, which I a pretty big issue with them. I'm assuming you didn't only be the fact that it came as a surprise to you. As I said, I'm far from an expert though, I'm still waiting for my background to come back.
I did report it. I just didn't know I was listed as suspect. Good luck with your background check.

Last edited by Nopal; 07-10-2013 at 10:09 PM..
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  #596  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:07 PM
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No idea then, sorry. Only thing you might do is wait a year or 2, then reapply with that letter as part of the original app.
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  #597  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonorousAria View Post
No idea then, sorry. Only thing you might do is wait a year or 2, then reapply with that letter as part of the original app.
Thanks, man, I appreciate it. I hadn't thought about that third option, but it shouldn't have to be like that.

I'm sure there is more to this than that with my Ex's letter missing from my file and all that (probably lost under a pile of papers on the wrong desk?). From what I've heard about the SBSD, they're supposed to be pretty reasonable folks. At least the ones I've met have been.

Last edited by Nopal; 07-10-2013 at 10:29 PM..
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  #598  
Old 07-11-2013, 8:25 AM
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I'm at SBSO waiting for my Livescan now. If you live in a city with its own PD, you WILL need a letter from them.
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  #599  
Old 07-12-2013, 7:15 AM
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Just a quick piece of bad, but practical advice to you men out there thinking about a permit in SB: Do not call the cops if you're involved in a domestic violence dispute and you're not the aggressor. Just tough it out, gentlemen!

I know it's ****ty advice, but that's the way it goes.

Last edited by Nopal; 07-12-2013 at 7:20 AM..
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  #600  
Old 07-13-2013, 11:44 AM
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Joyce just called me, permit is ready to pick up tuesday also.$116.80 more due upon pickup.
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