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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-30-2010, 4:10 PM
jink122 jink122 is offline
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Default 80% lower to be built as a pistol.

I have someone offering me a trade, where he will GIVE me, no FFL, a 80% lower that he claims I can make into a pistol. Here is his email describing it to me.

"With an 80% lower they are sold from the manufacturer directly to an individual. It's not technically a receiver yet so there is no registration. The individual can then complete the lower into a functional receiver and register it (or not register it) as they wish. It's up to you weather you register it, and if you do register it you can DROS it as a pistol or rifle. The 80% lowers are desireable due to the fact that an individual can obtain a fully functional rifle, pistol, or what have you without any legal documentation."

In short, it is legal to own and legal to build. (within state regulations for pistols or rifles)
The receiver I have is a completed 80%, ready to go, just throw in your parts. Since there is no standing registration I am able to just hand it over. No DROS."


My question:

Is this legal? Also, I want to build an AR pistol, what do i do after i build one from this 80% lower? Also, so I need to put a sled in it?

Thank you in advance, the more quotes from legal documents you can provide as proof would help greatly.

Last edited by jink122; 09-30-2010 at 4:12 PM..
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Old 09-30-2010, 4:41 PM
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80% require additional machining to make them complete (100%), there is no DROS process involved so that section about DROS'ing it either as a rifle or pistol is somewhat incorrect.

It can be made in to a pistol, so long as it has never had a stock and rifle upper attached to it. A homebuilt pistol is not required to be registered, although many recommend it "just in case", though in my opinion it almost defeats the purpose of starting with an 80%.

The last part where he says "The receiver I have is a completed 80%, ready to go, just throw in your parts. Since there is no standing registration I am able to just hand it over" makes me want to turn and run. If it has already been machined to accept all the parts and is basically a working lower then it is considered a firearm so it would have to be DROS'd or it would be an illegal transfer. If no work has been done to it then he can just hand it over as its just considered a hunk of metal.

Maybe ask for some more clarification before proceeding...carefully.
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Old 09-30-2010, 4:44 PM
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Yes, but you cannot manufacture an "unsafe" off-roster semi-automatic handgun. You would have to build it as a single shot first, then convert it to semi-auto. So yes, you would need the sled, but you could then convert it to semi-auto , if you were making an AR-type pistol.
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Old 09-30-2010, 5:06 PM
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Thank you for the information. So if it was no longer 80%, and he made it into a pistol, can he legal dros it to me as a built pistol? If it was 80% what tools would i need to complete it?
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Old 09-30-2010, 5:14 PM
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Watch out!
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Old 09-30-2010, 5:23 PM
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How much are all the parts going to cost you to build this?
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Old 09-30-2010, 6:08 PM
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im thinking pistol upper used $500, RRA parts kit $65, pistol stock spring assm $75, lower 80% he said $100.
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Old 09-30-2010, 6:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jink122 View Post
Thank you for the information. So if it was no longer 80%, and he made it into a pistol, can he legal dros it to me as a built pistol? If it was 80% what tools would i need to complete it?
In order to DROS homemade firearms, they need to be marked with a serial number and the builders information. I believe there are ATF specifications as to the proper type of information and the size and depth of the engraving necessary to remain legal.

As for the tools needed, I believe a mill is whats recommended, though some have reportedly done them on a drill press with ok results. Check the gunsmithing forum for more info on that.
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Old 09-30-2010, 7:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jink122 View Post
Thank you for the information. So if it was no longer 80%, and he made it into a pistol, can he legal dros it to me as a built pistol?
DO NOT DO THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

Quote:
If it was 80% what tools would i need to complete it?
Google is your friend.
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Old 09-30-2010, 7:44 PM
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If you finished out the 80% lower you would be good to go, but since he built it, thats a different set of circumstances. He's really not supposed to be selling the lower as he is not a manufacturer. I'd pass on the deal and buy an 80% lower.
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Old 09-30-2010, 7:47 PM
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The unserialized, non-DROSed AR pistol will be one of the UOC items to
have! Just be sure you have a suitable holster to put it in.
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Old 09-30-2010, 8:03 PM
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Tools to complete:
Mill or Drill press
Jig varies depending on which of the above you have

Technically, if he has even drilled just one hole, he has taken it past the 80% mark, and it is now a firearm, and the only way he could sell it is if he followed all guidelines (proper serial numbers) and you would have to transfer through a dealer to buy it.
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Old 09-30-2010, 9:43 PM
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so if i buy a 80% lower and build a pistol myself under all laws abiding by it, IE built it up with greater than 6" barrel, sled, buffer, etc, I dont have to dros it?

Should i dros it?
If i do or don't can i remove the sled either way?
What if a LEO sees me without a serialized nor registered AR pistol build from an 80%?

I also found this:

"All National Firearms Act (NFA) regulations apply to your firearm. You may create a short-barreled rifle out of your firearm via a BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosive) Form 1 after BATFE approval. "

So if i wanted to make a short barrelled PISTOL, do i still need Form 1 after approval?


LASTLY,

People are advising me on this, what if I meet the guy who has taken his lower to 100 finished at my FFL and we build it into an AR pistol THERE at the shop, then we droses it to me as a pistol, would that work?

Last edited by jink122; 09-30-2010 at 9:48 PM..
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  #14  
Old 09-30-2010, 10:34 PM
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Answers inline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jink122 View Post
so if i buy a 80% lower and build a pistol myself under all laws abiding by it, IE built it up with greater than 6" barrel, sled, buffer, etc, I dont have to dros it? No. There is no sale of a firearm here, how could one fill out a DROS (Dealer's Report of Sale)?

Should i dros it? No
If i do or don't can i remove the sled either way? Yes. Once it has been completed as a compliant single-shot pistol, there is nothing in CA law preventing you from removing the sled and inserting magazines of 10 rounds' capacity or less
What if a LEO sees me without a serialized nor registered AR pistol build from an 80%? Ah, there's the rub. Many of my former colleagues aren't as aware of firearms law as they perhaps should be. Some posters here advocate not marking, some advocate serializing/marking, some advocate both serializing/marking and registering via the DOJ Voluntary Registration form. That's a call you may have to make yourself, based on your willingness to accept possible difficulties ending in a possibly expensive victory by not marking it.

I also found this:

"All National Firearms Act (NFA) regulations apply to your firearm. You may create a short-barreled rifle out of your firearm via a BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosive) Form 1 after BATFE approval. "

So if i wanted to make a short barrelled PISTOL, do i still need Form 1 after approval? NO. That applies to short barreled rifles (SBRs) ONLY, i.e., shortening a rifle to a pistol configuration or building a firearm that has a buttstock and a barrel shorter than 16" or shorter than the overall length required by law, not to pistols using a receiver that has never had a buttstock installed.


LASTLY,

People are advising me on this, what if I meet the guy who has taken his lower to 100 finished at my FFL and we build it into an AR pistol THERE at the shop, then we droses it to me as a pistol, would that work? I wouldn't touch that arrangement with a 10-foot pole. Having already been offered an illegal firearm transaction by this individual, I would run, not walk, to the nearest exit. You could not legally perform the contemplated construction at an FFL's location in any case. That would require an 07 FFL.
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Last edited by Grumpyoldretiredcop; 09-30-2010 at 10:47 PM..
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2010, 2:30 AM
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Thank you retired cop, all questions answered! I got pulled over today and I don't think I should have gotten a tick..... Just kidding.
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Old 10-01-2010, 9:03 AM
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In reguard to markings:

I'm of the opinion that by not marking the lower you are making it obvious exactly what it is, a home built pistol.

It goes like this:

A police officer asks you why your AR isn't marked.

You say "Have you heard of the California roster of not un-safe handguns?"

Then you explain to him how home building is the cheapest way to legally get an AR pistol, the ATF doesn't require markings on home built guns unless you sell them, California registration for home built guns is VOLUNTARY, you first built it as a dimensionally compliant single shot pistol to comply with the California roster of not-unsafe handguns and it's not a pistol "assault weapon" because it has a fixed magazine that holds ten or less rounds.

Or you could decline to answer their questions and ask to speak with your lawyer.

I think you have to be a good judge of the situation to determine what to say. A cop that wants to bust you will probably arrest you even if your lower is marked and registered. A cop that just wants to make sure you're not doing something illegal might be receptive to that argument since everything you did was intended to comply with state and federal laws.

If you don't think you can easily convince the cop that there is no crime, ask to speak with your lawyer.
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Old 10-01-2010, 7:19 PM
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I think its best to mark them, at least with fire/safe and some type of name, city, caliber..maybe a serial number of some sorts. If it ever gets stolen it may find its way back to you with markings.

I am going to mark mine, I just want to find a good engraver in south OC that might add a little flare to it.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:41 PM
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Do u know anywhere I can pay to have my 80% milled?
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jink122 View Post
Do u know anywhere I can pay to have my 80% milled?
you can't pay someone to mill your 80% lower into a 100% lower without them being licensed 07 FFL (manufacturer) and then it has to be DROSed to you as a long gun. The point is that you have to machine it yourself.
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Old 10-05-2010, 1:25 PM
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bahh... got it.
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Old 10-21-2010, 4:03 PM
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so and update, bought 2 80% from tactical machines, going to mill them this weekend myself! Looking forward to it, I will update with some pictures.
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