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  #1  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:30 PM
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Default Bullet Button for Ar15

I'm in process of buying a bullet button, while searching There were a few that i was going to buy, but most say "not yet approved by the CALDOJ" does that mean its "illegal" in cali? Cause I haven't found one that actually said, caldoj approved.

was looking at "bullet button convertible" sold by golden state tactical.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2836/p9060001.mp4

and

one from prince 50 designs

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=46802

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:36 PM
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I dont think any BB is CA DOJ approved (but I could be wrong). It does not mean its illegal in CA.

If you are building a featureless AR, then you dont need a BB. Check the flow chart for details.

If you never feel you are going to use or need the radlock type of features, for something like a rimfire upper. Then just go with a standard bullet button.

Remember, if you have a centerfire upper, and have an adjustable bullet button that you can adjust to eject a mag w/o a tool, you would then be breaking the law in CA. From what I understand even if your own home this law applies.

Lots of people have them, and use them, but thats a decesion you need to make. If you ever travel outside of CA or ever got a rimfire upper for your AR, then its a cool option to have.

Anyone, please correct me if my information is NOT correct.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsrturboek View Post
I'm in process of buying a bullet button, while searching There were a few that i was going to buy, but most say "not yet approved by the CALDOJ" does that mean its "illegal" in cali? Cause I haven't found one that actually said, caldoj approved.

was looking at "bullet button convertible" sold by golden state tactical.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2836/p9060001.mp4

and

one from prince 50 designs

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=46802

Thanks.
Don't worry about the "not yet approved by CALDOJ". You can buy as many as you want and install them on your build. In fact, DOJ has never "approved" any bullet button. If your gun cannot accept a detachable mag, which it can't with a bullet button because once you insert a mag it is "fixed" (you can only remove it with the use of a "tool") it is not an assault weapon by definition.

Just be sure never to have the convertible BB set to drop the mag without a "tool" in CA...because then it would be an assault weapon if it had any of the "evil features"

Last edited by jtmkinsd; 09-20-2010 at 11:50 PM..
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:38 PM
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No bullet buttons are cadoj approved and they never will be.
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2010, 11:39 PM
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No bullet buttons are cadoj approved and they never will be.
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:44 AM
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Im not doing a featureless build so having a bb is a must.

So the california law just want a bullet button on there of any sort it doesnt matter what kind right?

Thats pretty vague, because the law isnt super super clear. I have a feeling the convertible bb will be ok with certain leo's. Just depends on who you run into one may give you a hard time.
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Old 09-21-2010, 9:11 AM
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The thing that makes a fixed magazine rifle is being functionally equivalent to an SKS with fixed magazine.

The SKS magazine can be removed with a bullet tip, that's why the bullet button was designed.

The original prince 50 mag lock design is one I would not recommend because to remove the magazine you create a detachable magazine configuration which is illegal if your upper is attached and you have any features.

My favorite is the CAL15BS and the original Bullet Button (available at Brownells). The Bullet Button Convertible is neat but I think I prefer the original for simplicity's sake.
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  #8  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by gsrturboek View Post
Im not doing a featureless build so having a bb is a must.

So the california law just want a bullet button on there of any sort it doesnt matter what kind right?

Thats pretty vague, because the law isnt super super clear. I have a feeling the convertible bb will be ok with certain leo's. Just depends on who you run into one may give you a hard time.
The law says to have all the cool evil features, like a pistol grip, you cannot have a detachable magazine or it is an illegal assault weapon. It doesn't say you need a bullet button, it says you can't have detachable mags. How you get to a fixed mag isn't defined in law, but the bullet button is the typical way it is done.

Seriously, you could rivet or epoxy the mag in place, put a pad lock through that uses a key, design some new locking mechanism that would disengage the mag lock if you wave an RFID card next to the rifle, or whatever. Just the whole point is to make it so you require some kind of tool to drop the mag. The bullet button is just the easiest way to reach that goal, but is not the goal itself.
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  #9  
Old 09-23-2010, 6:50 AM
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...design some new locking mechanism that would disengage the mag lock if you wave an RFID card next to the rifle, or whatever. Just the whole point is to make it so you require some kind of tool to drop the mag.
Now that is the ticket right there. Off to the drawing board.

Wonder the legalities of this. The lock is engaged unless the RFID card is in close proximity (max of 12-24 inches or so) Keep the RFID in your pocket, lock is disengaged. Without this tool the lock is engaged. This is actually very doable...
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2010, 7:56 AM
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Default Re: Bullet Button for Ar15

Quote:
I dont think any BB is CA DOJ approved (but I could be wrong). It does not mean its illegal in CA.

Remember, if you have a centerfire upper, and have an adjustable bullet button that you can adjust to eject a mag w/o a tool, you would then be breaking the law in CA. From what I understand even if your own home this law applies.

Lots of people have them, and use them, but thats a decesion you need to make. If you ever travel outside of CA or ever got a rimfire upper for your AR, then its a cool option to have.

Anyone, please correct me if my information is NOT correct.

I think you mean to say if it is adjustable for in state and out of state, to adjust any adjustable BB, even in your home, to out of state mode is still illegal. I do not believe an adjustable is illegal when set to CA mode.
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  #11  
Old 09-23-2010, 8:06 AM
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Wow! It's been a while since I posted this. Been busy with work and I haven't had the time to get some more machined up to re-stock, plus the money involved to get it started again. But here's a look of the CAL15-BS

CAL15-BS. Click on the photo for video demo.
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  #12  
Old 09-23-2010, 9:10 AM
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That's pretty neat Jtroks! A close up of the "featureless" mag button would help.

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  #13  
Old 09-23-2010, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
No bullet buttons are cadoj approved and they never will be.
According to the members of the CGF (lawyers included) no one has been successfully prosecuted for having a BB equipped rifle. Non-DOJ approved, but not an issue which seems to be capable of prosecution.
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  #14  
Old 09-23-2010, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsrturboek View Post
I'm in process of buying a bullet button, while searching There were a few that i was going to buy, but most say "not yet approved by the CALDOJ" does that mean its "illegal" in cali? Cause I haven't found one that actually said, caldoj approved.

was looking at "bullet button convertible" sold by golden state tactical.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2836/p9060001.mp4

and

one from prince 50 designs

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=46802

Thanks.
All my current AR's have bullet buttons. If they were not approved by DOJ then the store wouldn't allow me to by a rifle, upper and lower together.

Cgheck out Riflegear's website they have BB's for sale or call them for further info.

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  #15  
Old 09-23-2010, 9:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Code7inOaktown View Post
I think you mean to say if it is adjustable for in state and out of state, to adjust any adjustable BB, even in your home, to out of state mode is still illegal. I do not believe an adjustable is illegal when set to CA mode.
This one I wouldn't be as certain about. The "adjustable" BBs are relatively new, so we haven't seen how DAs/AGs will take them.

If you have a rifle that is legal length with a flash hider/muzzle brake I've heard some posters caution that if law enforcement can screw the hider off without significant tools they will probably charge you with a SBR.

If SOME overzealous DA with political aspirations decides that it is "easy" to adjust the BB to be non-detachable, could you end up spending a hundred grand defending yourself? I'm not sure that I want to find out.
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  #16  
Old 09-23-2010, 4:43 PM
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We recommend that you print out the flow chart for what defines an assault weapon and all other paperwork that states that your rifle is legal to own incase that you do get harrassed by the police. California LEOs are becoming more aware of the rifle laws and as long as you follow the rules you will be fine. Study the laws and carry them with you whenever transporting you firearm to be safe. We own a tactical supply company just north of the Los Angeles area and work closely with local law enforcement agencies. 90% of our walk in customers are LEOs and we do our best to supply gear to them and educate them in new laws concerning AR15s.
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Old 09-23-2010, 9:32 PM
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I know Sacramento and San Diego law enforcement have issued memos to officers instructing them on the legality of AR's equipped with a BB. I live in LA and and would love to purchase one of said rifles but I am a total wimp. Until I can carry a print out of a similar memo issued by LAPD or LA Sheriffs I'm just too afraid to make the purchase. I've settled for the CA legal Kel Tec SU 16 CA. I know the possibility is remote, but I just don't want to take the chance. Any thoughts other than I should just sack up?
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Old 09-23-2010, 9:51 PM
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sounds like you don't want one bad enough.

When I was younger it was "what evil gun can I buy", not "what gun should I want but probably not buy?"

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Old 09-23-2010, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by centurycitygun View Post
I know Sacramento and San Diego law enforcement have issued memos to officers instructing them on the legality of AR's equipped with a BB. I live in LA and and would love to purchase one of said rifles but I am a total wimp. Until I can carry a print out of a similar memo issued by LAPD or LA Sheriffs I'm just too afraid to make the purchase. I've settled for the CA legal Kel Tec SU 16 CA. I know the possibility is remote, but I just don't want to take the chance. Any thoughts other than I should just sack up?
Nope, you nailed it!
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsrturboek View Post
I'm in process of buying a bullet button, while searching There were a few that i was going to buy, but most say "not yet approved by the CALDOJ" does that mean its "illegal" in cali? Cause I haven't found one that actually said, caldoj approved.
Check out the article at the following link, part of it talks about how the DOJ tried to sneak in their opinion in regards to bullet button, prince50, etc., where they end up having to remove their opinion from their site.
http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/in...main_page=ar15

This is directly from the DOJ's mouth, "a bullet is considered a tool" http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf

Last edited by TreeHugger; 09-23-2010 at 10:14 PM..
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Old 09-24-2010, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JTROKS View Post
Wow! It's been a while since I posted this. Been busy with work and I haven't had the time to get some more machined up to re-stock, plus the money involved to get it started again. But here's a look of the CAL15-BS
How much does the Cal15-BS go for? that's a dope set up, im definitely like that or the convertible bullet button set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Tactical View Post
We recommend that you print out the flow chart for what defines an assault weapon and all other paperwork that states that your rifle is legal to own incase that you do get harrassed by the police. California LEOs are becoming more aware of the rifle laws and as long as you follow the rules you will be fine. Study the laws and carry them with you whenever transporting you firearm to be safe. We own a tactical supply company just north of the Los Angeles area and work closely with local law enforcement agencies. 90% of our walk in customers are LEOs and we do our best to supply gear to them and educate them in new laws concerning AR15s.
I don't have the flow chart printed out yet, but I do have the Sacramento Police department memo regarding Bullet Buttons on Ar15s printed out. I don't have a complete rifle yet, but the more complete it gets Ill be sure to have everything printed out. Thank you for the recommendations!

so whats the verdict? What bullet button are you guys using? I might just play it safe, and get a "normal" BB where there isn't different settings and such. Don't want to play and twist the law and get tangled in that mess, but who knows we'll see LOL
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  #22  
Old 09-24-2010, 8:49 AM
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We use and sell the bullet button that is non adjustable. Remember that as much as it does suck, if your life does not depend on your rifle and if you are not competition shooting then there is no need to drop and change out mags rapidly. Your lower parts kits will come with the standard magazine release for a SHTF situation.

When i travel with my AR15s to and from the range i have the lowers separated from the uppers. The lowers are stored in a locked pelican case with all the information printed out in the case.

http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/in...main_page=ar15

there are links on that page to information that can be printed.

what kind of build are you working on?
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:16 AM
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Well I just picked up a stripped Spikes Tactical lower receiver. I get to pick it up on the 28th along with a standard RRA or Stag LPK.

as for an Upper i am aiming towards the DI system. Something along the lines of BCM, Noveske or Daniel Defense.

Im just going to save and stick to the buy once cry once rule. It might take longer to get due to a being a college student, but it will be worth it in the end.

I don't do any competition shooting. The rifle is mainly to have fun with some friends at the range when we go shooting and when SHTF.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TreeHugger View Post
Check out the article at the following link, part of it talks about how the DOJ tried to sneak in their opinion in regards to bullet button, prince50, etc., where they end up having to remove their opinion from their site.
http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/in...main_page=ar15

This is directly from the DOJ's mouth, "a bullet is considered a tool" http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf
Sounds like a BB isn't even required?

(a)
"detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
This one I wouldn't be as certain about. The "adjustable" BBs are relatively new, so we haven't seen how DAs/AGs will take them.

If you have a rifle that is legal length with a flash hider/muzzle brake I've heard some posters caution that if law enforcement can screw the hider off without significant tools they will probably charge you with a SBR.

If SOME overzealous DA with political aspirations decides that it is "easy" to adjust the BB to be non-detachable, could you end up spending a hundred grand defending yourself? I'm not sure that I want to find out.
Good points. I actually went with a standard BB because I felt it would eliminate any chance of a dishonest LEO switching it to out of state mode. But since convertible buttons are so popular now, has there been any prosecutions of the convertible buttons reported?
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:50 PM
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Haven't heard of any...they are relatively new and at first glance they look just like any other BB...so it'll take some time for LE to even realize there's something new out there...as for "dishonest" LEO, have no comment about that...but you should know if they want your gun, they are going to get it...local PD here has confiscated weapons with bullet buttons (local LE relayed how a woman in their property room can bend her pinkey nail and operate the BB...thus not needing a "tool") now that is something they would only do to someone they really didn't want to have a weapon for some reason...but just another lesson in "if they want it, they'll get it"
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Old 10-01-2010, 8:09 AM
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centurycitygun View Post
I know Sacramento and San Diego law enforcement have issued memos to officers instructing them on the legality of AR's equipped with a BB. I live in LA and and would love to purchase one of said rifles but I am a total wimp. Until I can carry a print out of a similar memo issued by LAPD or LA Sheriffs I'm just too afraid to make the purchase. I've settled for the CA legal Kel Tec SU 16 CA. I know the possibility is remote, but I just don't want to take the chance. Any thoughts other than I should just sack up?
There was a lawsuit over the SKS, the ruling in that case is the guideline for how judges and juries must determine if a magazine is detachable.

Since a bullet button makes a gun functionally equivalent to a SKS which is defined as having a non-detachable (without a tool) magazine, a bullet button rifle must be legal as long as it doesn't violate any other "assault weapon" or NFA law.

There is always the risk of some cop mistaking it for an illegal "assault weapon" but CGF is there to make sure you get out of jail and get your gun back. Just make sure you don't add any color to the case like drug posession or some other crime.

If you get arrested for your gun and only your gun, that is exactly the type of case CGF is looking for and it's exactly the type of case that CGF was founded for.

Chances are that even in LA, if you can keep your rifle cased (and unloaded) in your trunk or otherwise out of sight while transporting and try to avoid police contact, it will never become an issue and most police know the laws to determine that it's legal any way.
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2010, 2:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centurycitygun View Post
I know Sacramento and San Diego law enforcement have issued memos to officers instructing them on the legality of AR's equipped with a BB. I live in LA and and would love to purchase one of said rifles but I am a total wimp. Until I can carry a print out of a similar memo issued by LAPD or LA Sheriffs I'm just too afraid to make the purchase. I've settled for the CA legal Kel Tec SU 16 CA. I know the possibility is remote, but I just don't want to take the chance. Any thoughts other than I should just sack up?
I have the Sacramento memo, does anybody have a link to this San Diego memo?
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  #30  
Old 10-01-2010, 2:58 PM
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  #31  
Old 10-07-2010, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bentot
I have the Sacramento memo, does anybody have a link to this San Diego memo?
Same here - I've tried searching but haven't found it.
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:13 PM
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i have a prince BB and i have seen people take the screw in BB wrench and just leave it in. Is this legal at a range or anywhere else?

I was under the impression it was not legal. Can someone elaborate?

thnx
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Artsville View Post
i have a prince BB and i have seen people take the screw in BB wrench and just leave it in. Is this legal at a range or anywhere else?

I was under the impression it was not legal. Can someone elaborate?

thnx
The law says a tool is needed to remove. I guess he is using a tool
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Artsville View Post
i have a prince BB and i have seen people take the screw in BB wrench and just leave it in. Is this legal at a range or anywhere else?

I was under the impression it was not legal. Can someone elaborate?

thnx
Not legal unless you keep it where it NEEDS the use a tool to drop the mag. One reason the P50 design has been drifting further from general use.

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Old 10-08-2010, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsville View Post
i have a prince BB and i have seen people take the screw in BB wrench and just leave it in. Is this legal at a range or anywhere else?

I was under the impression it was not legal. Can someone elaborate?
That is not legal under any circumstances within the State of California when a centerfire upper is installed. It is not legal at a private range, it is not legal for competition, it is not legal in the middle of the Mojave Desert, and it is not legal in your bathroom with the door locked
It is no different from unscrewing the original P-50 maglock setscrew... which is no different than simply not having a BB in the first place.

The BB wrench can be used as a tool to drop the magazine, but the threads must NEVER engage enough to hold the wrench in place as long as a centerfire upper assembly is attached.

The BB Wrench was designed as it is to allow for the TEMPORARY installation when outside of California, or when using a .22lr upper assembly.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.

Last edited by Cokebottle; 10-08-2010 at 7:29 PM..
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:26 PM
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Quick search found these links.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=224600

http://www.gs2ac.com/flyers/2009/200...ationsmemo.pdf
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Roccobro View Post
One reason the P50 design has been drifting further from general use.
He's talking about the small red "BB Wrench" tool that can be used to install the BB, but with a couple of extra twists, it becomes a detachable-magazine:



Yes, it has been pretty clearly known for a year or so now that the original Prince-50 design is only legal when used in a top-loading configuration.

Keep in mind that the original P50 is not the only P50.
P50 actually owns the patent on the name "Bullet Button" and produces both the original "Maglock" (drilled and tapped standard mag release with a setscrew), and the modern "Bullet Button" (2-piece unit).
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:30 PM
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I put the brand BB on my Saiga 762x39. I called and the owner answer (I assume) and said it was legal at a range to fire all 10rds then use the bullet to remove the magazine. Then reload, and continue.
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jeep7081 View Post
I put the brand BB on my Saiga 762x39. I called and the owner answer (I assume) and said it was legal at a range to fire all 10rds then use the bullet to remove the magazine. Then reload, and continue.
If your Saiga is converted and have a Mag lock on it. Yes, using a tool to release the mag is legal. Just make sure your Saiga meets 922r complaint as well.
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Old 10-08-2010, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trench Broom View Post
Same here - I've tried searching but haven't found it.
There is no San Diego memo.
I've seen that posted a few times over the last couple of weeks,.

The memo is Orange County SO:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Ora...2010-01-12.pdf

And a HUGE thank you to Jason Davis for taking care of the "situation", and another big thank you to CGN user "Stan" for "taking one for the team" (though not intentionally!) and being the case that caused this to happen.

HOWEVER.....
The OC bulletin is perhaps not the best one to use. There is some FUD in the bulletin, however slight:
Quote:
Once a bullet button is installed and there is an attached magazine capable of holding only 10 rounds, the firearm no longer has a "detachable magazine" as required for a Category 3 type of assault weapon as per Penal Code Section t2276.1(a)(L).
The first page of the link above includes a letter from Jason Davis indicating the inaccuracy, but there has as of yet been no followup training memo issued.

For this reason, many people believe that it is wise to transport any featured builds with an empty magazine installed.
It is a lot easier to ask a cop "Can you remove that magazine without a tool?", rather than "Here, let me attach this magazine to demonstrate how the gun does not have a detachable magazine"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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