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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#1
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Yesterday there was a shoot out that ended in one dead. BUT ! i would say that maybe every one in that store would have been dead if not for AND from what I understood a employee had a gun that he fired back with and even hit of of the robbers. There was a blood trail left by the wounded suspect.
One victim was killed in the shoot out though. I wonder if this guy had a CCW for that weapon ? Just google Sacramento news and click on any of the news stations links that come up.
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Shoot to Kill not to Wound ! ![]() |
#2
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here are a few links
these have the articles on first page http://cbs13.com/ http://www.news10.net/ these didnt http://www.kcra.com/news/24858669/detail.html http://www.sacbee.com/2010/09/03/300...k=omni_popular
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Shoot to Kill not to Wound ! ![]() |
#3
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The decision to shoot first in a situation like that is complicated (and we do not know if the good guy shot first in this situation, or if one of the felons did so). Personally, if it looked like the robbery was going to be just that, I would not take the risk of starting a gun battle - especially in that environment. However, if the robbers became agitated and I thought that they were about to start shooting, I would do my very best to take them out. In any case, a law abiding citizen will now have to live with the decisions he made in a horrible situation he did not start. He has my sympathy and my prayers. |
#4
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#5
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Someone who is holding people at gun point IS a real threat.
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Coyote Point Armory 341 Beach Road Burlingame CA 94010 650-315-2210 http://CoyotePointArmory.com |
#6
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Exactly.
I just LOVE how the media gives the criminal the benefit of the doubt, assuming he has no intention of actually using the gun. No one can know that, and plenty of people have gotten hurt or killed because they assumed not resisting was the best course of action. If I was the employee I would've shot the guy the first chance I got.
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Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. -- L. Neil Smith ![]() ![]() |
#7
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People get robbed and then shot to get rid of the witnesses all the time. Don't assume a robber is happy to commit multiple felonies, but has some kind of problem committing one more by killing anyone who can pick him out of a line up. He's more likely to stay free if you are dead, remember that.
Sometimes they kill you for only having $17, like this poor guy recently http://www.ktvl.com/articles/text-11...adow-none.html Last edited by stix213; 09-03-2010 at 2:41 PM.. |
#8
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Ditto. I just never understood the argument about "it's just money/stuff, it's not worth killing or dying for." Yes, assuming that the only thing happening is a robbery. But it isn't. The bad guy(s) are starting off with a very real threat to your life, and only after that ransoming your life for your valuables. Anyone who takes their word for it, that they won't make good on their initial threat if they give up their valuables, is an idiot for trusting someone already proved to be dishonest enough to be a thief. If someone threatens me with a weapon, they are going to get shot, whether they try to convince me that I can avert the threat by paying them off or not.
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#9
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I can see it now.
"A peacful armed robbery was suddenly inturrupted by gunfire when an armed citizen interviened. The robber, who's family described as 'violent and mentally unstable' was shot and killed while holding patrons of a local store at gunpoint." "We have to take these guns out of the hands of everyday joes... anyone could have been killed because some vigilante decided to get trigger happy" These liberal antis piss me the **** off |
#10
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My point is this: Anyone placed in the situation that this drug store clerk was placed in has to make a shoot/no shoot decision in a split second. Many firearms trainers (if not all) will tell you that you have to weigh the risk vs. benefit before drawing or shooting. (Rob Pinkcas, for one comes to mind - and I probably mis-spelled his name.) 1) Anyone committing an armed robbery is a threat, but some are greater threats than others. The greater the threat the great risk you should be willing to take to stop the threat. 2) Will I be able to draw and fire my gun before I am shot? (Would you try to draw your gun against someone who has one pointed at you? Bad idea.) 3) Do I have a clean line of fire to - and behind - the shooter? 4) How many threats am I facing and can I engage them all before they return fire. The above is definitely not all inclusive. Here is what we know about this incident: Two criminals entered a drug store to rob it. A citizen was faced with a split second decision and with much more knowledge than any of us have, he chose to draw and fire. The final outcome was definitely not all we would have hoped for. The moral and legal responsibility for the death and injury rest squarely upon the criminals. It's too bad that both of them were not killed instead of one innocent person. So much for the tactics, no for the human side of things: I spent ten years of my life in a job where lives depended upon my often split second decisions, and where these decisions were later examined by others at their leisure. I am not going to do the same to a man who did the best he could under circumstances he did not create. Given the outcome, and than he is human, he will do too much of that himself. If I could speak to him, I would tell him that all we can do is our best - which is exactly what he did. None of the above means that we cannot all learn lessons from what happened IF AND WHEN we have more information. Until then, I will keep this man in my prayers, because his burden - even if self-imposed - is probably heavy. Last edited by vincewarde; 09-03-2010 at 3:40 PM.. |
#11
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__________________
Coyote Point Armory 341 Beach Road Burlingame CA 94010 650-315-2210 http://CoyotePointArmory.com |
#12
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When I wrote that, my concern was simple: We don't know a lot about what happened, beyond the barest of facts from the media - and trust me, I know that they cannot be trusted to get things straight. It's way to early to know if this was a model defensive gun use. I really, really hope it was. There is a very good chance it was. Everyone in that drugstore may owe their lives to this guy. But before we send it off to "The Armed Citizen", let's wait for more facts. The antis love to falsely portray us as people as people who are untrained and likely to shoot without thinking. We know better than that - we know, as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet we fire has a lawyer attached to it" - more importantly, we all have to live with every round we fire or choose not to fire. May all of us be up to the challenge if we have to face it. |
#13
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********************************************** - Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle. - WTB: Nerf N-Strike Longshot CS-6 |
#14
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I know the place real good but as for how the guns laws are in places of business im not to knowledgeable about.
but none the less this should make people thing a lot about the freedom of being able to carry a gun will do to our state. it must be nice to live in a state that has Shall and not worry to much about criminals rolling in you place of work because they would most likely know that you would have a gun on you or real close by. thats why im going for a CCW ![]()
__________________
Shoot to Kill not to Wound ! ![]() |
#15
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Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"? To answer your question: Absolutely. Action beats reaction. Most every time. Get some training before you make uninformed comments. |
#16
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#17
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#18
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Keep looking, Grasshopper. The truth is out there... |
#19
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![]() Action absolutely beats reaction - but, if you think about it, self defense always involves a reaction to a threat. Hopefully we can regain the initiative, use the element of surprise, etc. But there is absolutely no way an old guy like me can draw and fire before someone pointing a gun at me can fire. I practice a lot, and I know what my abilities are. If I am ever in the horrible situation of having a gun pointed right at me, I am going to need a diversion ![]() |
#20
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Sounds like you need it. |
#22
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Man I hope the CCW guy didn't shoot the one victim.
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There’s a time to think and there’s a time to act. This gentlemen, is no time to think!! -Sheriff Bud Boomer- |
#23
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http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html -- Michael |
#25
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Lest anyone forgets. Any deaths that happened during the commission of a felony are on the bad guys. It doesn't matter whose bullet struck killed them.
__________________
Coyote Point Armory 341 Beach Road Burlingame CA 94010 650-315-2210 http://CoyotePointArmory.com |
#26
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Maybe the weapon was in an ankle holster, so you say you can whip out that baby while your aggressor turned hapless victim just sits there reaction-less ?? The individual with the gun may not have the obviously high level of training and ego you appear to have demonstrated. What has this to do with the thread other than trying to demonstrate something of expletive deleted ? It will be pretty hard to learn the outcome from this as the real story won't get out for quite some time ??
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A Nation of Sheep Will Beget a Government of Wolves Last edited by Flouncer; 09-05-2010 at 6:37 AM.. |
#27
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Was there a point to any of that? |
#28
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You're right as far as I'm concerned. If it's do or die pull out your gun and go for it, beats getting executed in the back room. But know that if the perp has a gun on you and is looking you in the eye it's probably 90% or better that you're gonna take a bullet. I don't get thebronze attack on vince or his reasoning here at all. Vince made a lot of sense, IMO.
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"I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars. |
#30
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For those of you that wish to trust your life to the benevolence of a robber, I wish you well in that endeavor. I'm sure I'll be reading about what a wonderful person you were and what a great life you had. |
#31
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Stories of victims drawing and firing while escaping injury even when a weapon was pointed at them are legion. It largely has to do with intent. Most of the time the robber (assuming he intends to shoot you) wants to obtain the goods prior to shooting you. Because of this, he's likely to hesitate even if you make an unexpected move. If you are drawing in that situation (and assuming you have actually trained for the scenario), you are simply going to draw, point, shoot and move and chances are you will do so before your assailant is able to process what is happening.
This may be what thebronze was talking about, but if so, he wasn't explaining himself very well. Ryan
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Bless, O Lord, this creature beer, which thou hast deigned to produce from the fat of grain: that it may be a salutary remedy to the human race, and grant through the invocation of thy holy name; that, whoever shall drink it, may gain health in body and peace in soul. Through Christ our Lord. Amen |
#32
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My original point was that Vince didn't know WTF he was talking about. The facts are quite different from his uninformed/untrained assertions (guesses). Quote:
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#33
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"I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars. |
#34
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Projection much? |
#35
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Yes, I do. But not from California. |
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