Sacramento Shoot Out

[winxp_man]

Yesterday there was a shoot out that ended in one dead. BUT ! i would say that maybe every one in that store would have been dead if not for AND from what I understood a employee had a gun that he fired back with and even hit of of the robbers. There was a blood trail left by the wounded suspect.
One victim was killed in the shoot out though.


I wonder if this guy had a CCW for that weapon ?


Just google Sacramento news and click on any of the news stations links that come up.

[winxp_man]

here are a few links

these have the articles on first page
http://cbs13.com/
http://www.news10.net/

these didnt
http://www.kcra.com/news/24858669/detail.html

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/09/03/300...k=omni_popular

[vincewarde]

Originally Posted by winxp_man

Yesterday there was a shoot out that ended in one dead. BUT ! i would say that maybe every one in that store would have been dead ..........

Very possibly. None of us were there, and the media sure is not going to tell us anything that backs up a civilian shooter unless they have absolutely no choice.

The decision to shoot first in a situation like that is complicated (and we do not know if the good guy shot first in this situation, or if one of the felons did so). Personally, if it looked like the robbery was going to be just that, I would not take the risk of starting a gun battle - especially in that environment. However, if the robbers became agitated and I thought that they were about to start shooting, I would do my very best to take them out.

In any case, a law abiding citizen will now have to live with the decisions he made in a horrible situation he did not start. He has my sympathy and my prayers.

[Anti-Hero]

Originally Posted by vincewarde

Very possibly. None of us were there, and the media sure is not going to tell us anything that backs up a civilian shooter unless they have absolutely no choice.

The decision to shoot first in a situation like that is complicated (and we do not know if the good guy shot first in this situation, or if one of the felons did so). Personally, if it looked like the robbery was going to be just that, I would not take the risk of starting a gun battle - especially in that environment. However, if the robbers became agitated and I thought that they were about to start shooting, I would do my very best to take them out.

In any case, a law abiding citizen will now have to live with the decisions he made in a horrible situation he did not start. He has my sympathy and my prayers.

Careful - JDBerger will be along shortly to dispell your propagation and affirmation of the auti-gun myths.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by vincewarde

The decision to shoot first in a situation like that is complicated (and we do not know if the good guy shot first in this situation, or if one of the felons did so). Personally, if it looked like the robbery was going to be just that, I would not take the risk of starting a gun battle - especially in that environment. However, if the robbers became agitated and I thought that they were about to start shooting, I would do my very best to take them out.

So. A completely non-agitated robber puts everyone in the place on the floor and starts taking their wallets etc. do you wait for him to get to you and give up your gun? What if he simply takes stuff from one person? Do you stand pat hoping that he doesn't randomly come up to you to take away your wallet?

Someone who is holding people at gun point IS a real threat.

[Flopper]

Originally Posted by dantodd

Someone who is holding people at gun point IS a real threat.

Exactly.

I just LOVE how the media gives the criminal the benefit of the doubt, assuming he has no intention of actually using the gun.

No one can know that, and plenty of people have gotten hurt or killed because they assumed not resisting was the best course of action.

If I was the employee I would've shot the guy the first chance I got.

[stix213]

People get robbed and then shot to get rid of the witnesses all the time. Don't assume a robber is happy to commit multiple felonies, but has some kind of problem committing one more by killing anyone who can pick him out of a line up. He's more likely to stay free if you are dead, remember that.

Sometimes they kill you for only having $17, like this poor guy recently
http://www.ktvl.com/articles/text-11...adow-none.html

[GaryV]

Originally Posted by Flopper

If I was the employee I would've shot the guy the first chance I got.

Ditto. I just never understood the argument about "it's just money/stuff, it's not worth killing or dying for." Yes, assuming that the only thing happening is a robbery. But it isn't. The bad guy(s) are starting off with a very real threat to your life, and only after that ransoming your life for your valuables. Anyone who takes their word for it, that they won't make good on their initial threat if they give up their valuables, is an idiot for trusting someone already proved to be dishonest enough to be a thief. If someone threatens me with a weapon, they are going to get shot, whether they try to convince me that I can avert the threat by paying them off or not.

[FatalKitty]

I can see it now.
"A peacful armed robbery was suddenly inturrupted by gunfire when an armed citizen interviened. The robber, who's family described as 'violent and mentally unstable' was shot and killed while holding patrons of a local store at gunpoint."
"We have to take these guns out of the hands of everyday joes... anyone could have been killed because some vigilante decided to get trigger happy"

These liberal antis piss me the **** off

[vincewarde]

Originally Posted by dantodd

So. A completely non-agitated robber puts everyone in the place on the floor and starts taking their wallets etc. do you wait for him to get to you and give up your gun? What if he simply takes stuff from one person? Do you stand pat hoping that he doesn't randomly come up to you to take away your wallet?

Someone who is holding people at gun point IS a real threat.

OK guys, I am pro-gun, pro-ccw and have been so for over 40 years. I am not the enemy.

My point is this: Anyone placed in the situation that this drug store clerk was placed in has to make a shoot/no shoot decision in a split second. Many firearms trainers (if not all) will tell you that you have to weigh the risk vs. benefit before drawing or shooting. (Rob Pinkcas, for one comes to mind - and I probably mis-spelled his name.)

1) Anyone committing an armed robbery is a threat, but some are greater threats than others. The greater the threat the great risk you should be willing to take to stop the threat.

2) Will I be able to draw and fire my gun before I am shot? (Would you try to draw your gun against someone who has one pointed at you? Bad idea.)

3) Do I have a clean line of fire to - and behind - the shooter?

4) How many threats am I facing and can I engage them all before they return fire.

The above is definitely not all inclusive.

Here is what we know about this incident: Two criminals entered a drug store to rob it. A citizen was faced with a split second decision and with much more knowledge than any of us have, he chose to draw and fire. The final outcome was definitely not all we would have hoped for.

The moral and legal responsibility for the death and injury rest squarely upon the criminals. It's too bad that both of them were not killed instead of one innocent person.

So much for the tactics, no for the human side of things:

I spent ten years of my life in a job where lives depended upon my often split second decisions, and where these decisions were later examined by others at their leisure. I am not going to do the same to a man who did the best he could under circumstances he did not create. Given the outcome, and than he is human, he will do too much of that himself. If I could speak to him, I would tell him that all we can do is our best - which is exactly what he did.

None of the above means that we cannot all learn lessons from what happened IF AND WHEN we have more information. Until then, I will keep this man in my prayers, because his burden - even if self-imposed - is probably heavy.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by vincewarde

I spent ten years of my life in a job where lives depended upon my often split second decisions, and where these decisions were later examined by other at their leisure. I am not going to do the same to a man who did the best he could under circumstances he did not create.

Your post came off exactly like you were doing that:

Personally, if it looked like the robbery was going to be just that, I would not take the risk of starting a gun battle - especially in that environment.

If that was not your intent and you were not suggesting that the situation he was in was as you described I am interested to know why you only brought up the reasons to NOT take the actions that he did. Had you simply said, "It's a really tough decision and it was his to make, I hope he made the right decision." I certainly wouldn't have posted what I did in reply.

[vincewarde]

Originally Posted by dantodd

Your post came off exactly like you were doing that:



If that was not your intent and you were not suggesting that the situation he was in was as you described I am interested to know why you only brought up the reasons to NOT take the actions that he did. Had you simply said, "It's a really tough decision and it was his to make, I hope he made the right decision." I certainly wouldn't have posted what I did in reply.

Points taken. I should have made it clearer where I was coming from in the first post.

When I wrote that, my concern was simple: We don't know a lot about what happened, beyond the barest of facts from the media - and trust me, I know that they cannot be trusted to get things straight. It's way to early to know if this was a model defensive gun use. I really, really hope it was. There is a very good chance it was. Everyone in that drugstore may owe their lives to this guy. But before we send it off to "The Armed Citizen", let's wait for more facts.

The antis love to falsely portray us as people as people who are untrained and likely to shoot without thinking. We know better than that - we know, as Clint Smith says, "Every bullet we fire has a lawyer attached to it" - more importantly, we all have to live with every round we fire or choose not to fire. May all of us be up to the challenge if we have to face it.

[HeHateMe]

Originally Posted by winxp_man

Yesterday there was a shoot out that ended in one dead. BUT ! i would say that maybe every one in that store would have been dead if not for AND from what I understood a employee had a gun that he fired back with and even hit of of the robbers. There was a blood trail left by the wounded suspect.
One victim was killed in the shoot out though.


I wonder if this guy had a CCW for that weapon ?


Just google Sacramento news and click on any of the news stations links that come up.

I was their place of business. NO CCW required.

[winxp_man]

I know the place real good but as for how the guns laws are in places of business im not to knowledgeable about.

but none the less this should make people thing a lot about the freedom of being able to carry a gun will do to our state. it must be nice to live in a state that has Shall and not worry to much about criminals rolling in you place of work because they would most likely know that you would have a gun on you or real close by.

thats why im going for a CCW

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by vincewarde

OK guys, I am pro-gun, pro-ccw and have been so for over 40 years. I am not the enemy.

My point is this: Anyone placed in the situation that this drug store clerk was placed in has to make a shoot/no shoot decision in a split second. Many firearms trainers (if not all) will tell you that you have to weigh the risk vs. benefit before drawing or shooting. (Rob Pinkcas, for one comes to mind - and I probably mis-spelled his name.)

1) Anyone committing an armed robbery is a threat, but some are greater threats than others. The greater the threat the great risk you should be willing to take to stop the threat.

2) Will I be able to draw and fire my gun before I am shot? (Would you try to draw your gun against someone who has one pointed at you? Bad idea.)

3) Do I have a clean line of fire to - and behind - the shooter?

4) How many threats am I facing and can I engage them all before they return fire.

The above is definitely not all inclusive.

Here is what we know about this incident: Two criminals entered a drug store to rob it. A citizen was faced with a split second decision and with much more knowledge than any of us have, he chose to draw and fire. The final outcome was definitely not all we would have hoped for.

The moral and legal responsibility for the death and injury rest squarely upon the criminals. It's too bad that both of them were not killed instead of one innocent person.

So much for the tactics, no for the human side of things:

I spent ten years of my life in a job where lives depended upon my often split second decisions, and where these decisions were later examined by others at their leisure. I am not going to do the same to a man who did the best he could under circumstances he did not create. Given the outcome, and than he is human, he will do too much of that himself. If I could speak to him, I would tell him that all we can do is our best - which is exactly what he did.

None of the above means that we cannot all learn lessons from what happened IF AND WHEN we have more information. Until then, I will keep this man in my prayers, because his burden - even if self-imposed - is probably heavy.

You may may be pro-gun and pro-ccw for over 40 years, but it's quite obvious by your words, you have done very little training for either.

Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"?

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

[asme]

Originally Posted by thebronze

You may may be pro-gun and pro-ccw for over 40 years, but it's quite obvious by your words, you have done very little training for either.

Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"?

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

[Kelvrick]

Originally Posted by thebronze

You may may be pro-gun and pro-ccw for over 40 years, but it's quite obvious by your words, you have done very little training for either.

Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"?

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

That may be true that he has to react to your action. But, I didn't know someone could draw, take aim and fire so quickly that it is faster than another person's reaction time to simply pull the trigger.

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by Kelvrick

That may be true that he has to react to your action. But, I didn't know someone could draw, take aim and fire so quickly that it is faster than another person's reaction time to simply pull the trigger.

Keep looking, Grasshopper. The truth is out there...

[vincewarde]

Originally Posted by thebronze

You may may be pro-gun and pro-ccw for over 40 years, but it's quite obvious by your words, you have done very little training for either.

Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"?

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

Have gotten some training - hope to get more. Don't know it all, and never will

Action absolutely beats reaction - but, if you think about it, self defense always involves a reaction to a threat. Hopefully we can regain the initiative, use the element of surprise, etc. But there is absolutely no way an old guy like me can draw and fire before someone pointing a gun at me can fire. I practice a lot, and I know what my abilities are. If I am ever in the horrible situation of having a gun pointed right at me, I am going to need a diversion

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by vincewarde

Have gotten some training - hope to get more. Don't know it all, and never will

Action absolutely beats reaction - but, if you think about it, self defense always involves a reaction to a threat. Hopefully we can regain the initiative, use the element of surprise, etc. But there is absolutely no way an old guy like me can draw and fire before someone pointing a gun at me can fire. I practice a lot, and I know what my abilities are. If I am ever in the horrible situation of having a gun pointed right at me, I am going to need a diversion

Sounds like you need it.

[N6ATF]

Wonder where the original thread went. Maybe it was too trollish.

[POINTMANDDT]

Originally Posted by winxp_man

Yesterday there was a shoot out that ended in one dead. BUT ! i would say that maybe every one in that store would have been dead if not for AND from what I understood a employee had a gun that he fired back with and even hit of of the robbers. There was a blood trail left by the wounded suspect.
One victim was killed in the shoot out though.


I wonder if this guy had a CCW for that weapon ?


Just google Sacramento news and click on any of the news stations links that come up.

Man I hope the CCW guy didn't shoot the one victim.

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by GaryV

Ditto. I just never understood the argument about "it's just money/stuff, it's not worth killing or dying for." Yes, assuming that the only thing happening is a robbery. But it isn't. The bad guy(s) are starting off with a very real threat to your life, and only after that ransoming your life for your valuables.

A semi-famous essay from 20 years ago: "A nation of cowards"

http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

-- Michael

[Anti-Hero]

One of the turds was caught today. Hopefully his accomplice will be along shortly.

[dantodd]

Lest anyone forgets. Any deaths that happened during the commission of a felony are on the bad guys. It doesn't matter whose bullet struck killed them.

[Flouncer]

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

Yeah, and I can catch a gnat with chop sticks, because he never knows what hits him.

Maybe the weapon was in an ankle holster, so you say you can whip out that baby while your aggressor turned hapless victim just sits there reaction-less ??

The individual with the gun may not have the obviously high level of training and ego you appear to have demonstrated.

What has this to do with the thread other than trying to demonstrate something of expletive deleted ?

It will be pretty hard to learn the outcome from this as the real story won't get out for quite some time ??

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by Flouncer

Yeah, and I can catch a gnat with chop sticks, because he never knows what hits him.

Maybe the weapon was in an ankle holster, so you say you can whip out that baby while your aggressor turned hapless victim just sits there reaction-less ??

The individual with the gun may not have the obviously high level of training and ego you appear to have demonstrated.

What has this to do with the thread other than trying to demonstrate something of expletive deleted ?

It will be pretty hard to learn the outcome from this as the real story won't get out for quite some time ??

Was there a point to any of that?

[BluNorthern]

Originally Posted by Kelvrick

That may be true that he has to react to your action. But, I didn't know someone could draw, take aim and fire so quickly that it is faster than another person's reaction time to simply pull the trigger.

You're right as far as I'm concerned. If it's do or die pull out your gun and go for it, beats getting executed in the back room. But know that if the perp has a gun on you and is looking you in the eye it's probably 90% or better that you're gonna take a bullet. I don't get thebronze attack on vince or his reasoning here at all. Vince made a lot of sense, IMO.

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by IVC

There was. You missed it. Again.

Riiiiight...

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by BluNorthern

You're right as far as I'm concerned. If it's do or die pull out your gun and go for it, beats getting executed in the back room. But know that if the perp has a gun on you and is looking you in the eye it's probably 90% or better that you're gonna take a bullet. I don't get thebronze attack on vince or his reasoning here at all. Vince made a lot of sense, IMO.

Of course he did. To someone that doesn't have any relevant training or who hasn't done any research relative to the topic at hand.

For those of you that wish to trust your life to the benevolence of a robber, I wish you well in that endeavor.

I'm sure I'll be reading about what a wonderful person you were and what a great life you had.

[socal2310]

Stories of victims drawing and firing while escaping injury even when a weapon was pointed at them are legion. It largely has to do with intent. Most of the time the robber (assuming he intends to shoot you) wants to obtain the goods prior to shooting you. Because of this, he's likely to hesitate even if you make an unexpected move. If you are drawing in that situation (and assuming you have actually trained for the scenario), you are simply going to draw, point, shoot and move and chances are you will do so before your assailant is able to process what is happening.

This may be what thebronze was talking about, but if so, he wasn't explaining himself very well.

Ryan

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by socal2310

Stories of victims drawing and firing while escaping injury even when a weapon was pointed at them are legion. It largely has to do with intent. Most of the time the robber (assuming he intends to shoot you) wants to obtain the goods prior to shooting you. Because of this, he's likely to hesitate even if you make an unexpected move. If you are drawing in that situation (and assuming you have actually trained for the scenario), you are simply going to draw, point, shoot and move and chances are you will do so before your assailant is able to process what is happening.

This may be what thebronze was talking about, but if so, he wasn't explaining himself very well.

Ryan

It was explained sufficiently in my original post. But thanks for the additional info.

My original point was that Vince didn't know WTF he was talking about. The facts are quite different from his uninformed/untrained assertions (guesses).

Originally Posted by thebronze

You may may be pro-gun and pro-ccw for over 40 years, but it's quite obvious by your words, you have done very little training for either.

Have you ever hear the axiom "Action beats reaction"?

To answer your question: Absolutely.

Action beats reaction. Most every time.

Get some training before you make uninformed comments.

[BluNorthern]

Originally Posted by thebronze

Of course he did. To someone that doesn't have any relevant training or who hasn't done any research relative to the topic at hand.

For those of you that wish to trust your life to the benevolence of a robber, I wish you well in that endeavor.

I'm sure I'll be reading about what a wonderful person you were and what a great life you had.

I've had excellent training and a couple of real life close calls, never been shot or had to shoot anyone. I've had a CCW for 10 years or so, do you have one? You make assumptions about me without knowing the first thing about who or what I may have done in my life...in short, you've broken rule #1...underestimating someone. Maybe you need to refresh your training. Do that in real life and you'll lose.

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by IVC

Spot on. He was too busy being arrogant and posting how (1) he has had great training; (2) everybody else is worthless and should enjoy being talked down to.

Projection much?

[thebronze]

Originally Posted by BluNorthern

I've had excellent training and a couple of real life close calls, never been shot or had to shoot anyone. I've had a CCW for 10 years or so, do you have one? You make assumptions about me without knowing the first thing about who or what I may have done in my life...in short, you've broken rule #1...underestimating someone. Maybe you need to refresh your training. Do that in real life and you'll lose.

Obviously you've forgotten most of that training then, if you agree with Vince.

Yes, I do. But not from California.