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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-06-2006, 8:19 PM
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Question Black Powder Handguns & California Law

A friend of mine showed me a link to a company in Texas that sells Black Powder Gun Kits. The price is reasonable and the guns all look very cool... (See Link Below)

http://arms2armor.com/shopsite_sc/st...bpgunkits.html


BUT, California has all sorts of gun laws that could cause problems, 10 day waiting period, list of approved guns, 50 CAL ban, ...

Anyone know of any way of figuring out if this is legal or not in California?


Bob
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2006, 8:46 PM
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Blackpowder is legal in California
You can order it direct from any mail order house like Cabela's or Gander Mountain
No 10 day wait no DROS
No worries
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2006, 9:01 PM
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Just out of curiosity, do Blackpowder handguns fall under the same restrictions as semi-auto handguns and revolvers when it comes to transportation and carrying?
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  #4  
Old 05-07-2006, 5:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep
Just out of curiosity, do Blackpowder handguns fall under the same restrictions as semi-auto handguns and revolvers when it comes to transportation and carrying?

Yes. They are still considered dangerous weapons and they are considered loaded when they are primed.
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  #5  
Old 05-07-2006, 10:25 AM
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According to the SJ Mercury News, it is another gun loophole here in CA where people can buy without a background check. They did a series article on it and highlight a Chinese woman who bought one at Reed's and committed suicide up on Skyline or thereabouts. They felt that a 10-day wait would have saved her life.
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  #6  
Old 05-07-2006, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stator
According to the SJ Mercury News, it is another gun loophole here in CA where people can buy without a background check. They did a series article on it and highlight a Chinese woman who bought one at Reed's and committed suicide up on Skyline or thereabouts. They felt that a 10-day wait would have saved her life.
Or she would've just hung, knived, or overdosed herself. [SARCASM] But this is California, where the only way a violent crime occurs is if theres a gun involved![/SARCASM]
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2006, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stator
According to the SJ Mercury News, it is another gun loophole here in CA where people can buy without a background check. They did a series article on it and highlight a Chinese woman who bought one at Reed's and committed suicide up on Skyline or thereabouts. They felt that a 10-day wait would have saved her life.
Screw 'em! And I doubt a 10 day wait would have helped either - it took a great amount of forethought and planning to go to the store, pay for it, buy the balls, caps, and powder, read up on how to load it, and much more; in many ways, all of the process to buy and shoot a black powder gun would have been as equally preemptive as a 10-day wait, in order to let her dwell on any second thoughts and doubts about self-ceasing. And I bet if there was some block by which she could NOT buy a gun due to 4473/DROS questions (like mental health) she would have stepped in front of a bus.

Also, while I am not one against the word "loophole" if it is TRULY a hole in the written law, there never was a law that dictated black-powder handguns would carry 10-Day wait and similar regulations in California. If you told me there was a centerfire hand gun, or a rimfire handgun that was exempt from the 10 day wait, ONLY THEN would I call it a loophole...

Ummm... WAIT A COTTON PICKIN' MINUTE...



http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/produ...rsion+Cylinder

Heh, heh, heh....And still a fully legal conversion even in CA because of the 2 part cylinder and the frame is not actually converted; shoot all the .32 Short or .45LC centerfire you want!!! The CA DOJ does not consider it to be a centerfire arm; only if you put in a fully machined cylinder and change the pin arrangement on the hammer to hit the primer dead center without the "transfer cap" which replaces the cap nipples, then is it a centerfire arm.

Now there is a "loophole" to which I have looped a few times myself!! (I bought several conversion kits when Red Star Military was going out of business at $100 each, which is about $150 lower than they normally cost).

.
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Last edited by CALI-gula; 05-07-2006 at 12:01 PM..
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2006, 11:39 AM
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Suicide by black powder? EWWWWWW!!!!

That's got closed coffin funeral written all over it !!!
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2006, 12:06 PM
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This suicide was quite a tragedy:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGB59PKL01.DTL

She was researching some very unpleasant stuff, and who knows what got to her. She was young and had a promising career as a writer.

I don't think different laws would have helped her, unfortunately.
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep
Suicide by black powder? EWWWWWW!!!!

That's got closed coffin funeral written all over it !!!
There is a good anecdote to your thoughts on this as well; when New York banned handguns years ago, coroners around the city noted a remarkable increase in crime victims being shot with blackpowder/ball & cap guns at close range. I recall one coroner noting that such wounds from close-range shots were not only messy to deal with, but trying to match the retreived ball to a specific gun was often useless, even if they had the gun in question in hand, not just because of the mess made, but also because there is no "list" or documentation of who may or may not have bought them.

They often mention they hate having to study fatal black-powder wounds; one aspect too is that they don't often "exit" so one must dig for the ball. Black-powder ball: the original CQB bullet?

.
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  #11  
Old 05-07-2006, 1:43 PM
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Default blackpowder handguns

i got news for you guys, untill the original assult weapons bill was passed, you
COULD NOT buy a black powder handgun in CA thru a store without a 15 days wait(for some reason you could still buy them by mail). I tried to buy a
blackpowder target pistol at Siegel's in Oakland-i gave them the money and filled out the forms-they came back 15 days later because i forgot to fill out my birthday on them. They wanted me to wait another 15 days, i said "Do you think i'm going to rob a bank with this,to hell with it, give me my money back". The law making pre-1898 black powder type Antiques(same as Federal laW)was added as a rider to the Assult weapons bill.So the bill wasn't all bad.
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2006, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by singleshotman
i got news for you guys, untill the original assult weapons bill was passed, you
COULD NOT buy a black powder handgun in CA thru a store without a 15 days wait(for some reason you could still buy them by mail). I tried to buy a
blackpowder target pistol at Siegel's in Oakland-i gave them the money and filled out the forms-they came back 15 days later because i forgot to fill out my birthday on them. They wanted me to wait another 15 days, i said "Do you think i'm going to rob a bank with this,to hell with it, give me my money back". The law making pre-1898 black powder type Antiques(same as Federal laW)was added as a rider to the Assult weapons bill.So the bill wasn't all bad.
I've never heard that one before.
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2006, 2:44 PM
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I know thats not true. My father bought black powder pistols before throughout his life, and never had to do any paper work or waiting periods.
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2006, 5:27 PM
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Default blackpowder pistols

yes, it's true-this was back in the 1980's(i'm a old geezer).That your father did not have to have his pistols registered does not suprize me at all-many gun dealers did not follow the law on pre-1898 pistols-i know of one who didn't-Dave Cumberland at the "old West gun room" in El Cerrito, ca.Well dave retired years ago and i'm sure his store is gone, too, like so many others.However the law is the law, it just was not enforced in the old days.
i never heard of anyone getting into trouble this way, but it was againest the law.
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  #15  
Old 05-07-2006, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula
trying to match the retreived ball to a specific gun was often useless, even if they had the gun in question in hand, not just because of the mess made, but also because there is no "list" or documentation of who may or may not have bought them.
Since almost all black powder pistols are smooth bore, there are no rifling marks left on the ball. Furthermore due to the ignition system, unless someone leaves a spent percussion cap behind or a chunk of the flintstone used, there is no evidece connecting it that way either.
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2006, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep
Since almost all black powder pistols are smooth bore, there are no rifling marks left on the ball. Furthermore due to the ignition system, unless someone leaves a spent percussion cap behind or a chunk of the flintstone used, there is no evidece connecting it that way either.
Even possession of the cap or flint as evidence would be useless; I suppose the best they could do is run some form of chemical residue test from the powder or the cap that may have spread atmospherically to the shooeters hand or clothes, for a match, IF they grab a suspect.

Most of my black-powder pistols have rifling - I just looked at my 2 Remington 1858 New Model Army revolvers, and they are both rifled. Of course, I have also installed the R&D cylinder .45LC conversion cylinders in a few of my Pietta blackpowder revolvers, so the ignition system is also likewise converted to a transfer pin for centerfire (so no cap).

I guess I had better not use any of my Pietta/R&D converted guns to kill anybody that might try to rob me at an ATM. Darn it! The law takes all the fun out of life!

.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2006, 7:05 PM
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A little off to one side of the topic. In the latest CDNN catalog Ruger 50 cal muzzleloaders are $199 blued and $239 stainless.

Save yourself three hundred and change. Cool.
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2008, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
when New York banned handguns years ago, coroners around the city noted a remarkable increase in crime victims being shot with blackpowder/ball & cap guns at close range. I recall one coroner noting that such wounds from close-range shots were not only messy to deal with, but trying to match the retreived ball to a specific gun was often useless, even if they had the gun in question in hand, not just because of the mess made, but also because there is no "list" or documentation of who may or may not have bought them.
I read recently that its not *entirely* untraceable. If they have a list of the likely culprits (they look to spouses, biz partners, known enemies, etc.) first. They could easily check any credit card or mail order transactions for a BP gun. Bingo!

Also, its not entirely true that smoothbore guns do not leave marks. They don't leave rifling marks but there may be something unique about the barrel that leaves a trace. And BP balls are less likely to deform than conicals that are designed to expand.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2008, 5:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep View Post
Since almost all black powder pistols are smooth bore, there are no rifling marks left on the ball. Furthermore due to the ignition system, unless someone leaves a spent percussion cap behind or a chunk of the flintstone used, there is no evidece connecting it that way either.
And, another "expert" proves that no one should blindly believe what they read on the internet! Most blackpowder handguns that I have seen over the last 40 years are rifled! I currently own about 12 and only one of them isn't rifled. As far as "ballistic evidence" goes, almost any lead bullet doesn't stay together well enough to be used as evidence.

Singleshotman,

I bought my first several front stuffers and BP revolvers between '86 and '88, from gunshops and, I never had to do any paperwork on them. BTW, in the '80's, NO ONE had to "register" any guns in this state! It was perfectly legal to buy and sell guns without any paperwork or going thruogh an FFL. If you are that old, I'm surprised that you don't remember that. Oh yea, even today in California, non-AW/50BMG long guns are still NOT "registered" with any government entity unless you fill out the Ca. voluntary registration form and send it in.

Last edited by CSACANNONEER; 11-25-2008 at 5:11 PM..
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2008, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep View Post
Since almost all black powder pistols are smooth bore, there are no rifling marks left on the ball.

Uhhh, what? No. Almost all black powder pistols are rifled.

Smooth bore pistols and muskets are the minority in the industry.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #21  
Old 01-01-2009, 8:59 PM
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so guys quick question dont wanna start a new thread,

do you have to be 21 years of age to purchase a blackpowder revolver ?
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Old 01-01-2009, 9:18 PM
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Black powder CARTRIDGE firearms are not considered antiques and you must follow all firearms laws on transfers just like any other modern firearm in California.
ONLY cap and ball or Flintlock muzzle loaders are considered antiques, Cartridge conversion kits/cylinders make the weapon a modern firearm in California.
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  #23  
Old 01-01-2009, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by garandguy10 View Post
Black powder CARTRIDGE firearms are not considered antiques and you must follow all firearms laws on transfers just like any other modern firearm in California.
ONLY cap and ball or Flintlock muzzle loaders are considered antiques, Cartridge conversion kits/cylinders make the weapon a modern firearm in California.
awsome , im thinking of a cap and ball revolver, thanks!
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