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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-28-2006, 10:51 PM
blacklisted blacklisted is offline
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Default History and Future of 'off-list' Lower Receivers

History of the 'off-list lower phenomenon'

4/28/06
First Draft


As everyone here knows by now, we are in the midst of a sort of 'craze' caused by the importation of 'off-list' AR-15 style lower receivers. Many of us have been involved or at least 'in the know' since the beginning of this whole thing, but some of the people that came in to this later on may not be aware of the history behind this. This causes some confusion, both regarding the law and what to expect out of the Department of Justice. What follows is my recollection of important events leading up to today. You can draw your own conclusions as to what this means for the future.

I will not cover the legal issues and the court decision that makes this all possible, because Bill's FAQ covers all that. I intend to combine all of our information on off-list lowers in this post.

http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

I will be quoting posters here and elsewhere, people from the gun industry, and of course, the Department of Justice in order to back up my points. If anyone objects to this, PM me and I will remove the reference or quote. These references will be included in the next version of this history, because it takes some time to search the archives.

If you have anything to add, please don't hesitate to contribute it.

I know where most of the information is, but it is buried in the ar15.com archives and elsewhere. Does anyone here have an ar15.com team membership, and if so, does the site archive hometown forum archive posts?

-----


August 2005

In August, 'blackrazor' received a response from the Department of Justice on a letter he sent regarding Harrott and the legality of a DSA 'ZM4' receiver. As far as I know, he did not publicize this at the time.

http://static.flickr.com/47/136752378_bf227af38f_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/47/136752379_b66d6f79b2_o.jpg

This letter may very well have been the first official acknowledgment from the DoJ that Harrott did allow stripped lower receivers not on the Kasler list to be imported. Note that up until this time, it appears they only allowed receivers with the magazine permanently attached to be sold, regardless of the fact that the law clearly says that a magazine is not detachable if it requires a tool to remove.

November 2005


Calguns member artherd (Ben Cannon) posts his now famous letter regarding the JP 'CTR-02'. Armed with this letter, he tried several FFLs in the area, trying to get them to transfer the rifle. Eventually, he got one to do so. Even with the letter, the rifle had to have the mag fixed out of state.
This is the letter that really started it all:

http://static.flickr.com/48/136752380_de7934c960_o.jpg

This letter, combined with the picture of Ben in a suit holding his rifle, fueled debate and speculation here on calguns, but at the time it was almost all positive. There was some debate about whether or not this was entirely legal (after all, the letter included the “58 DAs” reference). Even though this letter was specifically about the CTR-02 rifle, it was broad enough to cover ANY non-listed lower receiver. In a perfect world, this would have been enough to convince an FFL to transfer such a receiver (especially if they read and understood the applicable law). However, this was not the case.

At this time, I (and others) began to look for FFLs that would be willing to do the transfer (and of course, looking for ways to get money!). I had studied the relevant laws and they all made sense (or as much sense as this State's crazy gun control laws could have). It should be noted that I emailed Stag with a summary of what happened, and they said they would ship no problem. I don't think a manager confirmed this.

In mid-to-late November, many on calguns began to send letters to the Department about the specific lower(s) they wanted, in the hopes that they could use them to convince wary FFLs to do the transfer. This had little effect, because any FFL willing to do so at that time would have only needed to see Ben's letter.

The large quantity of letters being sent likely started a panic in the Department.. Most, if not all, of these letters were sent to Alison Merrilees.

I must confess that I sent out a letter on November 28th, but it turned out to be unnecessary.

It was some time in November that Wes (tenpercentfirearms) found out about this. At Bill's (bwiese) urging, he researched the topic. Soon after, he decided to sell lowers at the San Jose gun show! Needless to say, a lot of people were excited, because he was the first FFL to really sell these.

Last edited by blacklisted; 04-29-2006 at 8:16 PM..
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:01 PM
blacklisted blacklisted is offline
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Default History Continued

December 2005

Before and during this time, nobody really thought that we would be able to register these as assault weapons and later configure them the way they are intended to be. We were always careful not to call these 'AR-15 receivers'. They were (and are) .223 self loading rifle receivers. I prefer to call them 'AR-15 style' receivers.

The big thing that happened in December was definitely the San Jose gun show. Wes from Ten Percent Firearms drove all the way to San Jose from Taft, and was at the show for 2-3 days.

He took some pre-orders before the show, and was selling Stag, Sun Devil (billet), Fulton, and possibly DSA receivers. I don't remember exactly what was sold, but his prices were good, and they were selling fast. He even had to move his table to a secluded corner of the building because the line was blocking the view of other tables!

During the show, an agent from the Department of Justice (Ignatius Chinn) showed up and answered some questions. He then exclaimed, “they're going on the list”. When asked how long, he replied “two weeks”. Remember, at this point this was quite a shock. We figured they might list some day, but it would probably take a year or so.

This caused quite a bit of excitement, as it seemed like things were going our way.

It seemed that way, but it was not to be. One after another, Wes' suppliers backed out. He was forced to cancel orders because he could not deliver the product. He eventually did get around 100 Stags in, and the earliest orders were fulfilled (those that paid in full before the show). Also around this time, his new store was audited by the Department of Justice, and some Superior lowers with the “auto” markings (SEMI-AUTO lowers) were seized. Having passed the audit, but being drained physically, Wes decided to cut his losses and pull out of the lower game (for now).

Wes continued to help people find receivers even after he stopped selling them himself.

The reason that manufacturers and suppliers were backing out was that throughout the entire month of December (and later), the Department was calling and intimidating out of state manufacturers, suppliers, and dealers. They were given ominous warnings (over the phone, rarely in writing) about California's 58 district attorneys, and some were allegedly lied to. It is not clear whether it was agents, desk clerks, or attorneys that made these calls. Whether they were lied to or not, the strategy worked. Soon, it seemed that nobody wanted to deal with us. Even some dealers here were convinced that we were all going to jail.

Here is a letter from Fulton Armory, explaining why they canceled Wes' order, and why they requested that he send back the ones they had shipped (or they would report it stolen):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulton Armory
Hi XXX,

We [Fulton Armory] called UPS today and requested that they return back to us the shipment of 100 receivers we sent out last week to you.

If for any reason UPS delivers them in error, Fulton Armory demands that you return all 100 of them back to us. We will credit your credit card the moment the receivers are received by us, as well as reimburse you for standard ground shipping, handling and insurance. If they are not returned, we will call the CADOJ and list them as stolen.

ATF allows that any licensee may refuse to sell to anyone, for any reason. I so now refuse to sell our lowers to you.

The California DOJ called me today and informed me that even though our receivers are technically legal for sale in CA, we __could__ still be prosecuted by any of the over 100 DA's in California. An essential fact that you withheld from me in our communications. Had I been aware of this critical information, and that there was some legal dispute, I would have never shipped these receivers to California.

As mentioned earlier today via our phone con, the second 100 receivers that you ordered will not be shipped.

It seems these days, there is legal, and then there's "legal". Who knew. Who can know these things?

A copy of this email will be faxed/mailed to the CADOJ.

W. Clint McKee
Owner
Fulton Armory
Clint@fulton-armory.com
http://www.fulton-armory.com
After that happened, a lot of people that thought they were getting lowers had to look elsewhere. This was the beginning of the group buys. Because of the DoJ intimidation, these had to be covert. The first group buy in my area was by a user here (Mud), but it was soon integrated with a group buy started by artherd and Scatch Maroo. This first buy was set up in secret.

User 6172crew also set up group buys, and continues to help people out.

Obviously, despite the "two weeks" comment, nothing happened. There was no new list. However, there was internal DoJ activity during this time.

Dale Ferranto, the Assistant Director of the firearms division drafted a provisional list, dated 12/20/05:
http://calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%2...%20changes.pdf

For more information on this, and other things that happened in the DoJ during the month of December, visit www.calgunlaws.com.

Last edited by blacklisted; 04-29-2006 at 12:01 AM..
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:01 PM
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Default Continued once again.

January 2006

January was mostly a series of organized group buys.

The first group buy that was arranged in late December started in early January. Fulton Armory receivers were sold (the ones that Wes would have received). This was done at an FFL in Milpitas, and it went smoothly. The next three or four group buys also went smoothly; Lauer Custom Weaponry and Ameetech lowers were sold along with others.

Ben did not make any money off of these buys. In fact, he lost money. He merely provided a source for people to get them from and provided a brief personal loan, and they were legally transferred by a willing FFL.

Ben attempted to get some Wilston Tactical WT-15s in, but that did not go well. These are made by the son of the guy that makes Wilson Combat lowers (which are banned), but they are done so under a separate 07 FFL, and are NOT banned. The DoJ said they were banned, and they had to be sent out of state to avoid potential prosecution. Since then, some FFLs have managed to legally sell Wilson Tactical WT-15s..

Also during January: Bill wrote his excellent FAQ (I believe the first draft was in December) in order to help those that were new to understand everything. It has been quite successful (when people notice it).

February 2006

Some time in early February (might have been in late January, I will confirm), the DoJ 'audited' the Milpitas FFL. During their 'audit', the lowers were seized for 'safekeeping'. Their reason was that the FFL's safe was too small to hold all the receivers he had on the premises.

The same day (or the day after), the FFL went out and bought a new safe. The DoJ refused to return the receivers, and still does so. However, firearms seized that were NOT part of the group buys can be returned if you fill out a LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release) form.

The Infamous February 1st memo:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ar15notice.pdf

The DoJ released a memo (which was posted on calguns before it even came out!) in which they stated their intention to add these lowers to the list (and AW Identification Guide), and that they will create a new category of assault weapons, which must be registered but still comply with the 'features' restrictions. The first version of this memo contained numerous errors (such as incorrectly citing Harrott, and of course some believe that the whole memo is an error. For some reason, they can not provide any criminal charges that you could be charged with by “violating” such a policy, and instead state that they will invalidate your registration in order to charge you. With your registration invalidated, then you could be charged with possessing and transporting an unregistered assault weapon. This memo created a lot of controversy, and continues to this day to be a topic of heated debate.

March 2006


The 'lower craze' really hits the mainstream this month.

A variety of out of state manufacturers and suppliers are shipping to CA direct. Stores such as Cold War Shooters are providing tons of receivers to the state. They realize that they aren't going to jail, and that they can actually make some good money off of this.

More Information:

Changing Language in the DoJ letters:

DSA – ZM4 – 8/4/05 – Alison Merrilees (see above)

Quote:
“You should be aware that all DSA receivers, including the ZM4, will soon be added to the list of weapons that are considered “assault weapons” under California law. After the list is published, owners will have 90 days to register their firearms, pursuant to PC 12285.”
JP Rifles – CTR-02 - 9/28/05 – Alison Merrilees

Quote:
“You should be aware, however, that the JP rifles CTR-02 is virtually identical to rifles that are now listed as assault weapons by the Department, and may be considered an assault weapon in the near future.”
Stag Arms - Stag 15 - Lisa Strange – 12/5/05

Quote:
“...you should be aware that the Stag-15 lower receiver is virtually identical to rifles that are now listed as assault weapons by the Department, and is likely to be considered an assault weapon in the near future.”
Stag Arms - Stag 15 - Alison Merrilees – 12/28/05

Quote:
“...you should be aware that the Stag-15 lower receiver is virtually identical to rifles that are now illegal assault weapons. You should also be aware that we intend to add it soon to the DOJ Assault Weapons Identification Guide. Therefore, the Stag-15 will soon be classified as an assault weapon.”
More letters regarding off-list lowers and other assault weapon related matters:

http://calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%2...ters060220.PDF

Possible reasons for the delay in updating the list
:

When the Department finishes drafting an updated list, they must submit it to the Attorney General, where he can have it published in the CCR (California Code of Regulations).

When it is updated, you will see it announced in the notice register, located at http://www.oal.ca.gov/reg_notice.htm.

This seems like a simple process, and it probably is. However, there are complications that delay the process. One complication is that every time they think they have everything on the list, something new pops up. It seems that they could just browse ar15.com and look at the list that has just about everything out there, but I believe there is a reason they do not. The reason is that they have to verify the existance of each receiver that is banned, which probably means getting at least one of each for themselves (after all, they do have an FFL), and photographing it.

Besides recordkeeping reasons, the lowers are photographed so that they may be added to the Assault Weapons Identification Guide, a guide for law Enforcement so that they may know what is banned.

Since this has not been updated since 2001, and since the current version has many problems (it conflicts with the Harrott decision), this is quite a bit of work.

Another possible reason is that they are stalling, desperate for new legislation to support the February 1st memo, or something more sinister. Only time will tell.

---------------------------------------

More coming soon:

List of “good” stores/dealers and manufacturers + socal group buy history

information on fixed mag methods, and how they differ from commercially sold lowers by Vulcan

April

A comprehensive list of receivers that have been sold, along with pictures

Last edited by blacklisted; 04-29-2006 at 12:39 AM..
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:10 PM
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talk about in depth, good job.
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:10 PM
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dont forget the shirts and mouse pads and cws so cal group buys of Jan 06...
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:11 PM
blacklisted blacklisted is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBWhite
dont forget the shirts and mouse pads and cws so cal group buys of Jan 06...
Don't worry. I don't know much about the socal group buys, but if you or anyone else has any information, please post it and I'll add it when I finish the other sections I'm working on.

Last edited by blacklisted; 04-28-2006 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:29 PM
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That's a great story. Fascinating reading, nicely written. The only question is...do we get a happy ending?
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:30 PM
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That's a great story. Fascinating reading, nicely written. I can't wait to read the rest. The only question is...do we get a happy ending?
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:56 PM
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All I can say is that I'm so proud to have been a part of all this. It's not every day that one gets to participate in such a historic event... even if it is only really a moment that affects a small audience and not the general population.
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shopkeep
All I can say is that I'm so proud to have been a part of all this. It's not every day that one gets to participate in such a historic event... even if it is only really a moment that affects a small audience and not the general population.
Do you want me to mention your interaction with Iggy at the gun show?
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:07 AM
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Excellent rundown. If you like I could get you the date we first started selling receivers... I think we placed our first order in the second week of Jan... in any event, nice history.
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe
Excellent rundown. If you like I could get you the date we first started selling receivers... I think we placed our first order in the second week of Jan... in any event, nice history.
That would be nice, I'm definately including you guys.

I'm also making a list of all stores that are currently willing to transfer / sell receivers, and those that offer accesories.
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklisted
That would be nice, I'm definately including you guys.

I'm also making a list of all stores that are currently willing to transfer / sell receivers, and those that offer accesories.
It would be a good idea to put together all that information in a sticky for the new folks. Yeah, I used to be paranoid about giving out that kinda information but by now the DOJ already knows who the key players are anyways. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if both you and I had folders on us down there.
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:17 AM
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Of course, I wont mention any dealers that have not publically stated that they are selling these (basically, nobody that didn't post a for sale thread).
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Old 04-29-2006, 1:30 AM
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that was neat.. thanks man i learned a lot
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Old 04-29-2006, 5:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklisted
Of course, I wont mention any dealers that have not publically stated that they are selling these (basically, nobody that didn't post a for sale thread).

There is a bunch of FFL's that sell and transfer AK/AR's but wish to remain below the radar.
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Old 04-29-2006, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklisted
The first group buy that was arranged in late December started in early January.
There were group buys that were earlier than this, I know of at least one in SoCal that occured with individuals taking possesion of receivers in December.

John
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:30 AM
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This has inspired me to type a new chapter in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=29636. Look for it later today.
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Old 04-29-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms
This has inspired me to type a new chapter in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=29636. Look for it later today.
I was looking everywhere for that! Everyone should read it.
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Old 04-29-2006, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N
There is a bunch of FFL's that sell and transfer AK/AR's but wish to remain below the radar.
I'm sure they are. That's why I'm not creating a "bad" list, just a "good" list.
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Old 04-29-2006, 3:44 PM
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April 2005

Calguns user Ryan HBC completes his third, and most potent AR Build. His home commando arsenal has reached an unprecedented high. Balance has once again been restored.

Last edited by Ryan HBC; 04-29-2006 at 3:49 PM..
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Old 04-29-2006, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklisted
I'm sure they are. That's why I'm not creating a "bad" list, just a "good" list.
Yes, they are the good people. Spreading the "faith".
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Old 04-29-2006, 8:02 PM
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Very well done! *****This should be a sticky****

That should be required reading before new members are allowed registration.

-ken
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Old 04-29-2006, 8:37 PM
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Good write up. You detailed everything quite well.


But you did leave out one thing under this heading.

Quote:
Possible reasons for the delay in updating the list:
One other reason could be that the DOJ has no legal obligation to update the list since once SB23 went into effect the law made it a crime to configure any rifle as an assault weapon. Therefore rendering the Harrot decision moot. - As far as the law is concerned. Public opinion may dictate other action.
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Old 04-29-2006, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pthfndr
Good write up. You detailed everything quite well.


But you did leave out one thing under this heading.



One other reason could be that the DOJ has no legal obligation to update the list since once SB23 went into effect the law made it a crime to configure any rifle as an assault weapon. Therefore rendering the Harrot decision moot. - As far as the law is concerned. Public opinion may dictate other action.

I actually thought about including that, but I figured that with their constantly saying that they are adding them, it wouldn't make much sense. The problem is that these are already considered to be AR-15 receivers, and unregulated ones at that. If the public knew that people are buying tens of thousands of AR-15 receivers that can be built illegaly, I'm sure they would call for a ban (even though the current law is enough for most of us).
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Old 04-29-2006, 11:02 PM
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I had had also come to the conclusion that it was POSSIBLE that they would list these some day, and it was my reason for buying them. I didn't think they would do it anytime soon, and I don't remember anyone else thinking so either (at least until Iggy's visit to the gun show). I didn't want a permament fixed mag lower such as the FAB-10 or Vulcan, but I sure did want a few of these. I have to dig through the old discussions and see if anyone thought before the gun show that they would list soon.

I didn't realize that I put "nobody thought they would list them", I'll change that when I update tomorrow. I actually meant to say that nobody thought that they would be banned any time soon (that I remember). Even the letters I posted from August and November say that they would be listed, or might be. I don't think we knew about the blackrazor letter at first though, but he turned up pretty early (much of that is buried on the ar15.com hometown forum).

As for the other buys (and the search for FFLs), I need more information on that. I remember you and others talking about driving all over and frantically searching for willing FFLs, but I am not that clear on the details. Most thought that they would be listing very soon. Perhaps you could give some more information on that? I'm especially interested in the early CWS sales.

I am going to have to add a section on that search for FFLs, because I almost got involved in it before the group buy organized. That was a nervous time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treelogger
I disagree. From the very beginning of these discussions (very late November, right around Thanksgiving, or early December, but definitely before the gun show), at least I (and probably many others) had come to the conclusion that it is extremely likely that the DoJ will list them. For me, that was the MAIN reason to buy them: The first time in many years there was a way to purchase something that with high likelyhood will soon become an assault weapon. Now clearly, in the unlikely case that the DoJ did not list, that wouldn't be a desaster either - it was already clear back then that we would end up with fixed-mag (or non-pistol-grip) rifles.

The big thing that happened in December was definitely the San Jose gun show. Wes from Ten Percent Firearms drove all the way to San Jose from Taft, and was at the show for 2-3 days.

(describing the situation in late December, after the infamous San Jose gun show with Iggy's appearance)


What you are writing is indeed true. But it ignores an important aspect: At the same time as the DoJ was intimidating the biggies, many of us were individually cleaning out all remaining stock of lowers that was held by willing dealers. And through a network or referrals, we were able to find those willing dealers, and find FFLs in California willing to do the transfers. For example, I spent much of the time between Christmas and New Years searching for lowers (after much effort, I managed to find 4 Stags and 2 Fultons), and locating the two FFLs within driving distance who were willing to DROS them. One of the first dealers inside California at that time was our own Pirate14, long before he went public (website and posts) about offering lowers.

In your history, you only talk about Wes and the group buys; you ignore the efforts of lots of individuals who got hundreds (or maybe thousands) of lowers into the state, probably depleted the stocks of lowers at nearly all smallers dealers, but probably also convinced many FFLs and out-of-state dealers that participating in importing lowers into California will not immediately cause the sky to fall on your head (to quote Asterix), in spite of the DoJ's empty threats.

Other than these minor nits, the history is wonderful.

Last edited by blacklisted; 04-29-2006 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 04-30-2006, 1:05 AM
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The next chapter is finished. I don't know when I will get the motivation to do another one.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...967#post281967
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Old 04-30-2006, 6:35 AM
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Blacklisted, your original post would make a great Wikipedia artcile!
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Old 04-30-2006, 8:10 AM
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Blacklisted... Great read! After tracking the issue from Iraq in December (returning stateside in late January) I was able to finally locate a local dealer who was willing to do OLL transfers in March. Thanks again to you and all the others who "put it out there" in the early days to help start the movement to regain a bit of Freedom back here in the PRK. Many of my fellow soldiers from our unit who returned with me in January from Baghdad, are buying or looking to buy soon, their own OLLs. We have all of you to thank for that.

F.A.S. Out
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Old 04-30-2006, 8:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenc9
Very well done! *****This should be a sticky****

That should be required reading before new members are allowed registration.

-ken
I agree, mandatory reading prior to registration. Great write up, thanks to all who helped make this happen.
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:16 PM
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I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:25 PM
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Good write-up, but there is no reason to make this mandatory reading for people signing-up. No offense, but this is not offlistlowers.net. This is Calguns and not everyone is here for lowers.
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Old 05-01-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIRATE14
I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......
Scorpio?
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Old 05-01-2006, 1:33 PM
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We had code words over at our setup also, I remember the first guy I sent over to my CoCo county FFL thought we were going to roll him and take his $$.

I was sure the DOJ had plants that were going to bust my FFL so we had all kinds of hoops to jump through and even now I wont print his name/number on the net.

There was a post not too long ago making fun of the way we had it setup and I still laugh when I think about what was said in response.

.....Good write up BL'd
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Old 05-01-2006, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Rambo
Good write-up, but there is no reason to make this mandatory reading for people signing-up. No offense, but this is not offlistlowers.net. This is Calguns and not everyone is here for lowers.
They're not here for lowers...........damn!!!!!!!
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Old 05-01-2006, 1:50 PM
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LOL. We never had code words. Maybe everyone else had code words because of all the grief I went through. That is so funny. Really the whole thing is pretty funny now that the pressure is off. I don't remember laughing a whole lot back then though.
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Old 05-01-2006, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIRATE14
I'll have to try and put something together to add to your history files......my favorite was my CODE WORD......SCORPIO.

People had to mention the code word or I wouldn't talk to them about recivers. This was mid Dec time frame.......
Blacklisted - you should add into December's entry that Pirate started openly selling lowers out of his back yard after he posted it on Calguns around then. I drove up to Highlands that very night with my roomie to start DROS on my first receiver.

Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!
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Old 05-01-2006, 1:54 PM
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Quote:
Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!
Same experience here except I bought 25 except he cut me a good deal and let me skip the 10 day wait. Cash and carry, I walked out with a box full!
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Old 05-01-2006, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grammaton76
Blacklisted - you should add into December's entry that Pirate started openly selling lowers out of his back yard after he posted it on Calguns around then. I drove up to Highlands that very night with my roomie to start DROS on my first receiver.

Man, that was the coolest thing ever - I took a 1.5-2hr road trip to buy lowers off of a picnic table in a guy's back yard at 9pm at night, and it was all legal!
Give me a little more information about it, and I'll add it when I do the update.

Right now I'm trying to scrape up the money to buy another lower!
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Old 05-01-2006, 2:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms
LOL. We never had code words. Maybe everyone else had code words because of all the grief I went through. That is so funny. Really the whole thing is pretty funny now that the pressure is off. I don't remember laughing a whole lot back then though.
Yeah, Wes, codewords are superfluous when you take out a table at the gunshow and print up flyers about off list lowers and have a line of 25+ people snaking around your table

You brought the most action/interest/etc. to the now-dying SJ gunshow I've ever seen since 2000.

I only wish I were there on that Sunday to see the 'Iggy swoop' there.

On the Sat of that SJ gunshow, the local NRA rep guy (Mike Schrader??) was going apoplectic. I at first had a hard time figuring who he was at first - thought he was just a vocal blowhard - since he was wearing a stained T-shirt, and was not really putting on a 1st-rate "rep" appearance. He kept screaming bloody rape about the off-list lowers thing and clearly didn't know details about 12276.1 'by features' guns. I tried to talk sense into him but it was useless.

However, Mike Schrader MAY have been the guy that called Don Kilmer in, not sure.

On Sunday I kept calling Wes (girlfriend was dragging me around shopping) just to see how he was doing. My buddies - who had a booth there selling odd lots of garage-sale whatnot that'd be banned at any respectable gunshow - kept calling me late Saturday and on Sunday, reporting rumors saying the 'red headed AR guy' was gonna get busted.

I knew otherwise, as Wes and I had got some nice supporting paperwork organized the week before.
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