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  #1  
Old 07-31-2010, 1:40 PM
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Default My CA FFL Proof of Residency Cheat Sheet.

Ok, so Becky and Gina are all screwed up on what documents work for DROS and what documents work for the 4473 for residency. So here is the cheat sheet I just made for making their life easier. I also see no reason why I can't hand this cheat sheet to a customer too if they are not quite sure how they are going to prove what they need to prove.

Quote:
Ten Percent Firearms California Proof of Residency Key
Federal 4473 Requirements
If the picture ID address does not match the 4473 address, then you must obtain
• another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s residence address. This alternate documentation should be recorded in question 20.b., with issuing authority and type of identification presented.
1. Do not take a copy of the document. Simply write down the document issuing authority and type in 20.b.
2. It must be a government issued document. Non-municipal utility bills and DMV brown change of address cards do not apply. The document should be printed or typed and not handwritten.
3. This is required for any firearm transaction whether long gun, handgun or other firearm.
Common examples are: CA vehicle registration, CA DMV printout, CCW, government utilities, and any printed hunting license documents.
CA DROS Requirements
All handgun DROS must be accompanied by a copy of proof of residency.
• Utility Bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual’s name and 4473 address. Utility Bill means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual’s residence by either physical or a telemetric connection to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device (satellite cable).
• Residential Lease that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address and is signed and dated.
• Property Deed that bears the individual’s name and 4473 address.
• Current, Government-issued License, Permit, or Registration, other than a CA DL or CA ID (DMV Printout will not work), that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The document must bear the individual’s name and 4473 address.
1. We must retain a copy of this document.
2. It must be valid and have an expiration date. DOUBLE CHECK THE DATES. No “Over Due Notice” warnings.
3. Make sure you can see the address for the utility provided on the bill.
4. If it is a government issued document, it can apply for both Federal 4473 and CA DROS requirements. (example: CCW, CA Vehicle Registration, Hunting Licenses) If not, then you might need to satisfy both. (Example: a DMV printout would still require a utility bill.)
4473 Legal Alien and Nonimmigrant Alien Requirements
Legal Aliens and Nonimmigrant Aliens are no longer required to have three consecutive months of utility bills.
• Nonimmigrant Aliens must provide a current hunting license or permit.
1. We must retain copies of the hunting license. On the 4473, simply write down the hunting license state of issuance and expiration date in 20.c.
Now this is my document, so if you don't like it, that is fine. However, I would like some proof reading and some possible more examples of documents you might regularly use for the 4473 Requirement. And then please feel free to use it yourself if you want.

Also the reason I don't retain copies for the Federal requirements are two fold. First, if it isn't necessary, then I am not going to do it because every sheet of paper I don't have to store, that is good. Second, my ATF agent told me specifically not to keep copies. I do what Jan White tells me to.

Enjoy!
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 08-30-2012 at 1:04 PM..
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Old 07-31-2010, 1:56 PM
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maybe note that some utility bills are .gov issued, perhaps by a city-owned utility, and they might be acceptable for #2


Quote:
2. It must be a government issued document. Utility bills, DMV brown change of address cards, and hunting licenses do not apply. The document should be printed or typed and not handwritten.
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Old 07-31-2010, 5:33 PM
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Thanks.

Anything that help clarify the morass of firearms law is appreciated.
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Old 07-31-2010, 6:27 PM
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In the handgun ID issue; I don't see a car registration listed there. Am I just missing it or is it not valid any longer?
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Old 07-31-2010, 9:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
maybe note that some utility bills are .gov issued, perhaps by a city-owned utility, and they might be acceptable for #2
I do state government utilities under "common examples".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
In the handgun ID issue; I don't see a car registration listed there. Am I just missing it or is it not valid any longer?
You missed it under #4 there. "CA Vehicle Registration"

Thanks guys.
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Old 07-31-2010, 9:57 PM
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Complicatedly clear. Job Well Done!

What about tho other contention item - gun lock.

I have an email from CA DOJ that told me I can walk in with a CA DOJ cable lock and the FFL can verify applicability, note it in the comments section of the on-line dros form as a manner of affidavit. Yet, this has not been widely accepted across the state, i.e. a receipt within 30 days is the trump card - or it must be purchased at the time of the start of paperwork.

Any ideas on a solution?
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CenterX View Post
Complicatedly clear. Job Well Done!

What about tho other contention item - gun lock.

I have an email from CA DOJ that told me I can walk in with a CA DOJ cable lock and the FFL can verify applicability, note it in the comments section of the on-line dros form as a manner of affidavit. Yet, this has not been widely accepted across the state, i.e. a receipt within 30 days is the trump card - or it must be purchased at the time of the start of paperwork.

Any ideas on a solution?
The gun lock is not a complicated issue at our shop. Either your gun comes with one or we give you one. It really is that simple. If you want to help make sure our box of locks never dwindles so low we would have to buy some and sell them again, then bring in your locks you aren't using and donate them to us. Preferably don't do it the same day you are buying a gun that needs a lock.

And that is why I don't need a gun lock cheat sheet. It is too simple. If other dealers are having a hard time with it, I would suggest it might be due to the fact they enjoy selling $10 or $20 cable locks.
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2010, 10:44 AM
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There are a couple of issues in your document.

First, is somewhat questionable as to what is "correct", "DROSes". I think it should just be "DROS".

Property Deed that bears the indvidual's

individual is misspelled.

If you want to be picky, the 4473 requirements should also include "other" firearms instead of just handguns or long guns, or to be clear, for any firearm transaction.

I forgot to mention: thanks Wes for sharing that, it is a nice document.
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Last edited by kemasa; 08-01-2010 at 3:30 PM.. Reason: added info
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Old 08-01-2010, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There are a couple of issues in your document.

First, is somewhat questionable as to what is "correct", "DROSes". I think it should just be "DROS".

Property Deed that bears the indvidual's

individual is misspelled.

If you want to be picky, the 4473 requirements should also include "other" firearms instead of just handguns or long guns, or to be clear, for any firearm transaction.

I forgot to mention: thanks Wes for sharing that, it is a nice document.
I'll fix those when I get a chance. Thanks. This really is more of internal document that I just wanted to share, but clearly it will help to have it look good since it might get passed around like my A&D Excel sheet.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2010, 10:26 PM
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Looks good but is this really an issue? Ive never had anyone who had a problem with using their vehicle registration.
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  #11  
Old 08-02-2010, 7:10 AM
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Originally Posted by C.W.M.V. View Post
Looks good but is this really an issue? Ive never had anyone who had a problem with using their vehicle registration.
Yes it is an issue when you own a gun shop. Not everyone has vehicle registration. When something as easy as vehicle registration is not available, then they will try and bring you all sorts of invalid documents. If you don't train your employees and/or don't have a quick paper you can hand to people, you might end up taking the wrong documents and come audit time, that is not a good thing.
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2010, 7:14 AM
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That's what I meant, I've never had or heard of a customer who didn't have registration.
Regardless good stuff.
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Old 08-02-2010, 7:44 AM
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I heard that there is no clear PC that states that the actual address on a CA driver's license and the 2nd proof of residency need to match each other?

As long as they both have CA addresses? I heard from a gun shop that they run into this when a person has a P.O. Box as an address on a DL and a residence address on a car registration for example?
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Old 08-02-2010, 8:20 AM
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There are people who are married who their vehicle in only in one person's name, which is the wrong person when it comes to buying a firearm since otherwise I would not know about it :-). Some younger people still have the vehicle in their parents name. The same is true with utility bills. It can be difficult at times to get the needed paperwork.
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Old 08-02-2010, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BANG BANG View Post
I heard that there is no clear PC that states that the actual address on a CA driver's license and the 2nd proof of residency need to match each other?

As long as they both have CA addresses? I heard from a gun shop that they run into this when a person has a P.O. Box as an address on a DL and a residence address on a car registration for example?
There is no state requirement that your DL address match your secondary proof of residency as often they don't match.

Federally, if the DL doesn't match, then you need a government issued document that does match your current address.
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
There is no state requirement that your DL address match your secondary proof of residency as often they don't match.

Federally, if the DL doesn't match, then you need a government issued document that does match your current address.
i see thanks. so either way you will need 2 that match
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:06 AM
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i see thanks. so either way you will need 2 that match
What you need is an address on your 4473. If that address does not match your ID, then you need something else to prove you actually live there for the feds. That would be a government issued document. If your ID matches your 4473, then you need nothing else.

For buying handgun, no matter what your ID says, you must have proof of residency that matches your 4473 address. A government issued document may not suffice for this requirement, but it is possible. That is where you look at the second set of requirements on my cheat sheet.

This is why I have a cheat sheet. It is not as clear as some people think.
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Old 08-03-2010, 7:19 AM
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Thanks Wes, good stuff. I hope you don't mind, but I edited your original document for clarity, continuity and succinctness for my own use.

I was planning on putting together a cheat sheet with a list of qualifying documents, and whether they satisfy the Feds, the State or both. Has anyone put together a list of qualifying documents they would be willing to share?
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Old 08-03-2010, 9:03 AM
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How about posting what changes you made?
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Old 08-03-2010, 5:41 PM
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If it's ok with Wes I will.
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Old 08-06-2010, 8:15 PM
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I think you did a good job. There are always issues with customers having an old address on their ID and needing additional document and having what is needed can be confusing for newer people working in shops. NICE WORK!
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:23 PM
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If it's ok with Wes I will.
I have zero problems with it. I only posted it to share with you guys to make all of our lives easier.
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:37 PM
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Great info Wes.
I was told the same.
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Old 08-12-2010, 5:53 PM
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Well if I have an insurance policy for my vehicle does that count?
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Old 08-12-2010, 5:59 PM
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And if some of these accounts such as credit cards or bank statements are maintained online? Will a print out suffice or will I have to request statements from my bank?
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:19 PM
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Well if I have an insurance policy for my vehicle does that count?
Nope. Not in any of the above situations. Not one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan.40 View Post
And if some of these accounts such as credit cards or bank statements are maintained online? Will a print out suffice or will I have to request statements from my bank?
I would accept a print out where it is relevant. Credit cards and bank statements are only valid for proving 90 days of continuous residency if you are legal alien or a nonimmigrant alien. They prove nothing for federal proof of residency or State handgun DROS.

Now a printout of your PG&E bill for State handgun DROS I accept.
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Old 08-13-2010, 7:07 AM
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All handgun DROSes must be accompanied by a copy of a SECONDARY proof of residency.

• Current, Government-issued License, Permit, or Registration, other than a CA DL or CA ID that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The document must bear the individual’s name and 4473 address.


Would a CCW from another state meet this requirement?
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Old 08-13-2010, 8:47 AM
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From the actual regulations on the matter, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter4.pdf

Quote:
d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice" means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
I don't see why a CCW issued by another state would not fall under that catagory. The regulations do not appear to limit "state" to "state of California" only, but it would probably fall under the the FFL's perogative.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:31 PM
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For a handgun purchase would these pass?

Scenario 1: CA ID, W-2, HSC

Scenario 2: CA ID, rent/lease contract(does it have to be notarized?), HSC

Am I good or what would I be missing?

Last edited by Colt-45; 08-17-2010 at 1:25 PM..
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Old 08-17-2010, 4:31 PM
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Either one is acceptable, as long as the addresses match (no the rent/lease doesn't have to be notarized). If the address on the rent/lease doesn't match what's on your license then you would have to go with the 1st option, since the W-2 is a government issued document.
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Old 08-17-2010, 5:09 PM
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Thanks, getting a utility bill was going to be a pain in the ***.

Last edited by Colt-45; 08-17-2010 at 5:12 PM..
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Old 08-17-2010, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNH5-7 View Post
For a handgun purchase would these pass?

Scenario 1: CA ID, W-2, HSC

Scenario 2: CA ID, rent/lease contract(does it have to be notarized?), HSC

Am I good or what would I be missing?
I don't think Scenario 1 would work because the W-2 does not have a period of validity or an expiration date.

Scenario 2 is fine.
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Old 08-17-2010, 8:21 PM
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does the contract have to be notarized?
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Old 08-18-2010, 5:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNH5-7 View Post
does the contract have to be notarized?
I don't believe the penal code says so, but the CA DOJ BOF website mentions something about it. The website is not law.
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  #35  
Old 08-18-2010, 5:41 AM
Mammoth Mammoth is offline
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You might want to take note that F&G also issues licenses with a printed address directly from state. I bring this up because you mention big game tags, which presumably are acceptable because it's an official government document with a printed address...in contrast to the typical "fill in the blank" license available from license agents.

While these haven't been very common in the past, F&G is working towards a new online license and tag purchase system so they will become more common going forward and it would seem like they would get the same consideration as a big game tag.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2010, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
You might want to take note that F&G also issues licenses with a printed address directly from state. I bring this up because you mention big game tags, which presumably are acceptable because it's an official government document with a printed address...in contrast to the typical "fill in the blank" license available from license agents.

While these haven't been very common in the past, F&G is working towards a new online license and tag purchase system so they will become more common going forward and it would seem like they would get the same consideration as a big game tag.
I did think about lifetime tags that seem to be issued by the state. I have never actually seen one in the shop though. And that is interesting with the new automated system coming up. They will be printed out, but I wonder if the customer still has to write in their name.
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  #37  
Old 08-19-2010, 7:28 AM
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I sent you an email (adress registered here on Calguns) with a scan of my current year state issued license. This license was purchased via fax from F&G.

I believe that this license format will be the same as that which comes out of the online purchasing system. It's a single sheet of paper with no carbon backup since the state already has everything they need for a re-issue. It's really a much more efficient way than the paper licenses handed out by agents.

Anyway, just trying to help. This seems like it should satisfy the requirement...if so, it's worth having informed employees and it looks like that's your goal.

Look forward to stopping by your shop some time when I'm in the area on business.
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  #38  
Old 08-20-2010, 4:29 PM
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I got a question to anyone who can answer...
It says that list above that for Legal aliens, We need additional proof for 90 days residency - and listed are the examples.

Earlier today I went to a local gun shop, was trying to buy a AR15 stripped lower, So i brought in my DMV car registration as proof, but was asked if I was a Citizen or not, Of course I said no, coz im a legal alien. Now comes the problem - I needed a document like a valid utility bill that needs to be a electric bill or water, something that needs to be tied up to the property I live at, Which I dont have,
My question is- on that list it says, I can use bank statements, credit card bills etc...witch I do have, to support proof of 90 days continous residency. Is that so? coz the local gun shop said no.

My situation:
Legal Alien here in San Diego, My current driver's license has a different address than my residence - updated address with the DMV, have my car registration with my current address but no utility bill such as water or electric. And yes I have lived here more than 90 days.
Can I still buy the lower and pass the DROS? or do I have to really get some bill under my name and wait 90 days?

Thanks in advance
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  #39  
Old 08-20-2010, 4:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanavi View Post
I got a question to anyone who can answer...
It says that list above that for Legal aliens, We need additional proof for 90 days residency - and listed are the examples.

Earlier today I went to a local gun shop, was trying to buy a AR15 stripped lower, So i brought in my DMV car registration as proof, but was asked if I was a Citizen or not, Of course I said no, coz im a legal alien. Now comes the problem - I needed a document like a valid utility bill that needs to be a electric bill or water, something that needs to be tied up to the property I live at, Which I dont have,
My question is- on that list it says, I can use bank statements, credit card bills etc...witch I do have, to support proof of 90 days continous residency. Is that so? coz the local gun shop said no.
bank statements are acceptable to prove the 90-days continuous. Stated so in this newsletter, http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf and on the actual 4473, http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-2008-11.pdf . The gun shop appears to be incorrect on this. Print ouf the newletter and 4473, highlight the pertinant section and show it to him.



Quote:
My situation:
Legal Alien here in San Diego, My current driver's license has a different address than my residence - updated address with the DMV, have my car registration with my current address but no utility bill such as water or electric. And yes I have lived here more than 90 days.
Can I still buy the lower and pass the DROS? or do I have to really get some bill under my name and wait 90 days?

Thanks in advance
lets see, CA needs just a CA ID/DL to purchase a long gun, so you need to comply with the federal requirements.

CA ID/DL plus a .gov-issued document iwth the current address (car registration would work). but since you are an alien, you also need the 90-days paperwork in which bank/CC statements with your current addres should be acceptable..
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  #40  
Old 08-20-2010, 4:45 PM
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xanavi xanavi is offline
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Thanks a lot ke6guj for clearing that out. I was frustated coz I already got an AR15 complete upper and waiting 90 days is just an eternity. lol

Last edited by xanavi; 08-20-2010 at 4:48 PM..
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