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  #1  
Old 07-27-2010, 8:57 AM
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Default Marketplace Rules, Your Ideas

As many of you know the rules for the Marketplace Forums were recently revised, some like them some do not and frankly I think most do not care one way or the other.
However given that some find the revised rules restrictive or feel they are detrimental I have been wondering how some of you would revise, restructure or completely rewrite the Marketplace Rules.

So I've decided to ask exactly that, I want to hear, read actually, what the members think the rules should be. Write out your version of the rules for the Marketplace and post them up.
I'm not saying that there will be any changes, I'm not promising to implement anything.
I am promising to read them and consider how they could or could not work and to give credible, beneficial and realistic ideas real thought and consideration.

The biggest thing I've seen as a complaint is that the new rules harm the sense of community, so let's see what we can come up with as a community.
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  #2  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:03 AM
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Hey kestryll,
How about a simple poll on if the marketplace needed to be cleaned up? It seemed like a few squeaky wheels led to the changes. While most calgunners didn't care or would've preferred to keep things as is. I could understand if the mods felt there was a problem that needed addressing and just laid down the law. But if you were just implementing what you thought calgunners wanted. I don't think most calgunners wanted it. Poll would help settle that.

My suggestion a rollback to last months rules before all the hubbaloo.
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  #3  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:05 AM
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Take out the rule prohibiting us from commenting (positively) in a FS ad. Shilling should be discouraged, but saying "nice deal" or "good guy here" should be allowed.

I would also not allow deleting/ changing titles or ads after the sale. Adding "SOLD" to the title would be fine, but the ads should stay for historical or research purposes.

Everything else seems fine.
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  #4  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:09 AM
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I don't care what the rules are, as long as they are enforced.

In the commercial deals forum at least, those of us toeing the line are getting rudely shoved off the first page by those who don't.

-Mark
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  #5  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
I don't care what the rules are, as long as they are enforced.
In the commercial deals forum at least, those of us toeing the line are getting rudely shoved off the first page by those who don't.

-Mark
+1 on these points. I personally dont think "shilling" was as much as a problem as it has been made out to be. I do beieve that some members where bumping threads for freinds w/out actually contributeing to the thread.


Not a rule suggestion, but once again an OP only 24hr "bump button" would be nice.

Thank you for your time and the great forum.
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
I don't care what the rules are, as long as they are enforced.

In the commercial deals forum at least, those of us toeing the line are getting rudely shoved off the first page by those who don't.

-Mark
The Commercial Forum is going to be reworked independent of the rest of the Marketplace forums, it is a different environment with different goals and market forces than the Private forums.
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  #7  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:46 AM
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"Take out the rule prohibiting us from commenting (positively) in a FS ad. Shilling should be discouraged, but saying "nice deal" or "good guy here" should be allowed."
+1

To me, one of the best parts of the marketplace was that it was a marketplace, not just some crappy classified section. The banter and discussion helped make it far more interesting than any other for-sale section on the internet (which, btw, is a high compliment). As both a buyer and seller, I'm completely cognizant of the fact that some items garner more interest than others, and from both perspectives, I'm very much okay with it.

There's nothing wrong with rules designed to keep the marketplace civil
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  #8  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:10 AM
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Implement the "bump button" another member recommended in the other feedback thread. Only the OP can press the button every 24hrs to bump his/her thread up to the top.

I think it's pretty evident the main point of contention with the new set of rules is the "shilling/commenting rule". I think the bump button would be the best possible solution. People who want to can still browse the marketplace and read the same 5 or 6 comments over and over again and people who would prefer that the ads only be bumped up every 24 hrs can be happy as well!

If the "bump button" isn't possible (I'm not sure how difficult it would be), then as I've recommended a couple times previously, I'd like to see pretty much an exact copy of m4carbine.net's Equipment Exchange rules adopted for Calguns' Marketplace. I really don't care if the marketplace became more of a classified ad section rather than a discussion forum. There are many, many other sections of the forum for people to discuss whatever they want to discuss to their heart's content.

Whatever you decide, please step up the enforcement of the rules. Give ~week grace period and then don't be afraid to play a bit rough. People have to learn how to follow the rules somehow.

Last edited by i1800collect; 07-27-2010 at 10:12 AM..
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  #9  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual_Shooter View Post
Take out the rule prohibiting us from commenting (positively) in a FS ad. Shilling should be discouraged, but saying "nice deal" or "good guy here" should be allowed.

I would also not allow deleting/ changing titles or ads after the sale. Adding "SOLD" to the title would be fine, but the ads should stay for historical or research purposes.

Everything else seems fine.
sounds good to me.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:34 AM
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Do you mean this thread?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=317832

I don't need to back the Mods on the new rules, I approved them before they were posted. They know my thoughts and that I am okay with them.

However as things do not occur in a vacuum and no matter how much we discuss and/or test things until they are implemented we never know exactly how it will either be received or if there will be issue we did not see.
Real life sometimes makes tweaking necessary and that is what I am trying to do, see what tweaks if any are wanted, warranted or necessary.

Frankly I don't see it as an 'us or them' deal at all.
There are some who like the idea of the new rules, which really are 95% the old rules with a few new additions based on the past years worth of Reported Posts and issues, and there are some who don't.
We will never have rules everyone likes however by setting a base and then asking for input we might get closer.
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  #11  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:41 AM
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im no expert in this area but def think that it would be more easily navigated and user friendly without all the jibber jabber in the market place threads. seems it would be a much nicer place to shop if all the fat was trimmed and all that we were looking at was what is important and whether the items are still available or not. maybe have a one bump/shilling per 24 hour rule..... i really like the idea of a bump button exclusive to the op
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  #12  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:50 AM
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I am fine with the rules either way. I do not prefer one over the other because I see both sides of it.

The rules just need to be enforced.

In the Commercial Marketplace it is a whole different story. The game is played different there as there is site sponsor money there.
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  #13  
Old 07-27-2010, 11:35 AM
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Go back to the old rules, but enforce the 'no shilling' rule. Brutally.

The mods have stated that shilling was out of control - Family members, multiple accounts, etc.

If they're saying that, they must know who it is. So just deal with them and take no quarter.

If it's even suspected, you can still give them a week or so timeout. Word will get out.

A few inane 'great price!' posts here and there are not so bad.

I don't know why being on the front page is so important. Even without shilling, you only stay there a couple of hours of hours anyway. I've bought many things 5-6 pages down. Sometimes way more than that!

Thanks for listening to us.
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  #14  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:47 PM
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I must agree with those thanking kes for taking the time to give the new rules a look, it is much appreciated. I've responded to the rule changes by following them in my own threads, but unfortunately some others have either not gotten the word or do not care to follow the rules. the simple solution is to follow the advice of mach and other mods in the thread about the new marketplace rules: report EVERYTHING. I go through the ads that get bumped above mine, and if they are bumped improperly then I hit the little red !! and off it goes to a mod. call me a snitch/informant/nuisance if you will, but as long as I'm being negatively impacted by others disregard for the rules I will continue to be proactive in seeing they are followed
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  #15  
Old 07-27-2010, 3:13 PM
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Just my $0.02 worth...

Quote:
3) Your location must be in each new Marketplace thread, whether WTS (Want To Sell) or WTB (Want To Buy). If your location is not given then your post may be deleted. It is preferred that your location be visible in your profile to sell or buy in the Marketplace. If it is not in your profile it must be in every new thread started in these forums. Given the large size of California your location must show at least what County you are in. We highly recommend that you also include the location in the title of the thread.
I'd prefer the seller indicate the city, county or region (NorCal/Central/Socal) in the title. For now, with PPT's often requiring FTF business and 2 friggin' trips it's almost never economical to buy from opposite ends of the state.

It'd also be nice to know if the seller requires a FTF transaction for other items like ammo, holsters, etc.

Quote:
7) Edit the title to show your items have been 'Sold'. Once you have sold the item(s) in your classified ad that you have in the Marketplace, edit the title so it's obvious that the item(s) have been sold'. Do not create a post just to say your item is sold. The moderating team does not delete threads simply because a transaction is completed, so please do not ask.
Along that line, I'd ask sellers not to remove the asking price and replace it with $SPF or SOLD. Such historical information, while available, is a good resource to gauge what others might get for their similar guns. If I want to make a quick sale of a Colt Diamondback, it sure helps to know what others asked so I can offer mine at a reasonably "good" price.

Quote:
13) ... All offers other than 'I'll take it' must be made via Private Message and do not need verification such as "pm sent", "offer sent", "would you be willing to xxxx
Seeing "PM sent" or "offer sent" does give other buyers a gauge of the interest in the particular item. It's discouraging to contact a seller to find you're 8th on his list. This is especially true when the seller states a cash price and also offers to trade.

Clarification:
Quote:
11) Shilling is strictly forbidden. Posting comments such as "great seller", "good deal", "good luck with sale", etc is strictly forbidden. This also includes comments such as "bump", "btt", or "tag" posted by a member other than the member who started the thread. Shills may have their access to the Marketplace quickly and suddenly terminated.
Do the mods consider it "shilling" if a seller lists a gun with a photo and a scant description and another party provides a history & detailed description of the model series? If not, does it become shilling if the person says "I owned/own one of these and it's a really great ..." ? The comment is not about the gun for sale, but the model series.

Jus' askin'.
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  #16  
Old 07-27-2010, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCA View Post


Seeing "PM sent" or "offer sent" does give other buyers a gauge of the interest in the particular item. It's discouraging to contact a seller to find you're 8th on his list. This is especially true when the seller states a cash price and also offers to trade.
I agree with the above, as it can help avoid hurt feelings if somebody PMs a deal, and the seller accepts, then somebody posts "I'll take it."
On that line of thought, I would NOT like this board to adopt an "I'll take it" post in the thread trumps anything else rule.
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  #17  
Old 07-27-2010, 6:01 PM
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I like the rules as they currently are, having only these suggestions:

I prefer to see Rules 4 and 11 enforced strictly and without exception in the private sales forums. I don't care if the same is done in the commercial forum or not. We've had some time to get used to the new rules. Anyone who can't manage to read the "read before posting" sticky before posting might be motivated to do so when their post or thread is removed.

I'd also like to see Rule 13 modified to allow for "PM sent", "offer sent" entries, with the idea that potential buyers can get a better idea of whether or not the seller might be considering another offer.

I agree with BillCA in regards to removing prices after items are sold. I would like to see sellers required not to do this. Sold items in a multi-item post can be edited to appear in strikethrough text, a clear enough indication that they are no longer available. Thread titles can be edited to indicate item(s) are sold, or...

I'd like to see sale threads locked once the item is sold. That way we don't have, um, inexperienced members raising some long-ago post from the dead. I understand that it takes mod time to do this and understand that mods might not be willing to devote the additional time required.
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Old 07-27-2010, 6:44 PM
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Quote:
Take out the rule prohibiting us from commenting (positively) in a FS ad. Shilling should be discouraged, but saying "nice deal" or "good guy here" should be allowed.
Quote:
I agree with BillCA in regards to removing prices after items are sold. I would like to see sellers required not to do this. Sold items in a multi-item post can be edited to appear in strikethrough text, a clear enough indication that they are no longer available. Thread titles can be edited to indicate item(s) are sold, or...
+1

I also think that you should bring back the Thread Rating feature in the Marketplace.
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  #19  
Old 07-27-2010, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpyoldretiredcop View Post
I agree with BillCA in regards to removing prices after items are sold. I would like to see sellers required not to do this. Sold items in a multi-item post can be edited to appear in strikethrough text, a clear enough indication that they are no longer available. Thread titles can be edited to indicate item(s) are sold, or...

I'd like to see sale threads locked once the item is sold. That way we don't have, um, inexperienced members raising some long-ago post from the dead. I understand that it takes mod time to do this and understand that mods might not be willing to devote the additional time required.
I'm one of those tin-foil hat guys.

I ALWAYS delete the content of my post and change the title to SOLD (with nothing else). I don't like a permanent record of everything I buy or sell just floating around forever. That's how those old posts get resurrected anyway. Some guy Google's 'Remington 512 .22' and up pops one of your old posts. Then they register and say "Still for sale?" I don't want them to find it in the first place. They can Google your screen name too.

I say leave the ability to edit/delete your post in. You can find 'historical' data somewhere else.

And as long as I'm here typing -

1) No location - immediate deletion of post
2) No Price - immediate deletion of post

They'll learn.

That will cut down 4-5 bumps just asking for the info.
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Old 07-28-2010, 5:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
Go back to the old rules, but enforce the 'no shilling' rule. Brutally.

The mods have stated that shilling was out of control - Family members, multiple accounts, etc.

If they're saying that, they must know who it is. So just deal with them and take no quarter.

If it's even suspected, you can still give them a week or so timeout. Word will get out.

A few inane 'great price!' posts here and there are not so bad.

I don't know why being on the front page is so important. Even without shilling, you only stay there a couple of hours of hours anyway. I've bought many things 5-6 pages down. Sometimes way more than that!

Thanks for listening to us.
Exactly! With the volume of things being listed, it's only a matter of time before you get to the 2nd page within a day or two. If people want to buy your gun at your price, they will find it. Search is a powerful tool.

I don't get why people get all sensitive just because there is some tripe to wade through. Scroll down or don't scroll at all. Who cares. The first post should have all the content, edited and updated, and will say SOLD if gone. So if you want to focus just on that and not read the comments, then DON'T!

Nobody put a gun on your head to make you read it so you have to curl up in a fetal position under your bed and suck your thumb to sleep. Read the first post, sleep. Repeat as necessary.

Other than that, no issues with any of the new or old rules.
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  #21  
Old 07-28-2010, 7:11 AM
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Good rules already in place

Location (County minimum)
Price (and yes, I think even a WTT should have a *value* price)
No multiple threads
24 hour bump rule

Rules/Features that could help

24 hour bump timer (no matter how many posts, thread will only bump 24 hours after OP- and if there are no posts, then it runs like normal)
Immediate enforcement/deletion (this used to happen- Seems like things went soft, even with the old rules, mods ASKING for location and price, deleting 24 hour violation posts and not the threads)...
You could disable posting in the marketplace until members have read the rules and posted acknowledgment in that thread/area. Another forum I belong to does this... Then when they don't comply, banishment.

There really is no reason to leghump ads. I'm all for the new shilling rule. Regardless, the bump timer would take care of that.

Last edited by scootergmc; 07-28-2010 at 7:13 AM..
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Old 07-28-2010, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomV View Post
But what price should be left posted ?

The price the item started at, got marked down to, or sold for ?
The last price posted.
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Old 07-28-2010, 3:53 PM
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I think open and honest comments should be allowed. We were all Noob's here once, someone suggesting something is priced like it was still Obamamania is useful feedback for a would be buyer and feedback to the seller that the price may be too high. If this is a free market that means looking at both sides of the coin.
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Old 07-28-2010, 6:07 PM
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I always edit my FS thread, to show what price I sold the item for. This way, if someone is looking for the same item for sale, they will have an idea of what the market rate is dictating at that given time, depending of course on condition, and many other factors such as collectivity, etc. and of course mark it SOLD once it is. But, this will give others a fair chance to post up what they think is a fair price if they are searching the marketplace for similiar and like items they may want to sell.
Remember, One mans garbage is another mans gold!

I like the idea of a OP only BUMP button. Questions in the OP's FS thread are always welcome to me, along with the occasional good seller comment etc. That does help the seller I think as it conveys to a prospective buyer that in fact, this person is good to deal with, and have the iTrader to back it up.

It just all those other comments that seem to intrude. You all know the ones..."wished I lived closer" OK, so what? If you lived closed, would you actually buy my item? So whats the point of that comment? None in my book, all you saying is if I lived closer, I will buy your item, because you don't want to pay for shipping on said item. Then you(seller) offers shipping, and you never hear from that member, ever again. To me, just someone bumping up their post count for whatever reason they have, self gratification that they are a veteran member of useless posts?

As far as commenting on someones asking price? Take it to a PM if you must...don't crap a persons sale, just because you feel that a Hi point is not worth $3000. That can be detrimental to a sale. OF course, we want to look out for each other, but, what someone else is asking for their item, is up to them, and no one else. If it doesn't sell, they will get the hint hopefully.

Other than the OP bump button and letting folks make the normal, USEFUL comments/questions, pertaining to the item, or the seller, that's all that should be allowed in a FS thread. I do not want a classified style marketplace, as yes, that is a little plain, and little sense of community is always nice with some interaction of members.
I would like the rules to allow those things, which I think they already do. The mods cannot be everywhere all the time, so of course some users will do it and get away with it, that's just how it goes.
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Last edited by ledman; 07-28-2010 at 6:11 PM..
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  #25  
Old 07-28-2010, 6:59 PM
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I like to see the titles cleaned up something along the lines of:
Purpose, item, location
example
WTS: Used Colt Combat commander - Bay Area

also if one wants to sell post different adds for different items, it should be allowed.

I think that makes easy to find something ones looking for.
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Old 07-28-2010, 9:31 PM
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Yes, titles must be clear. Nothing worse than finding a gun with a good price but no location and you click it and it is in NorCal and no shipping.
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Old 07-30-2010, 7:15 PM
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Hi Kestryll,
just by asking for comments I give you a thumbs up. I think the new rules are like the gun laws the liberal politicians pass. Instead of just punishing the offenders, we make the sight much less friendly. There are enough mods to catch a guy who is obviously having his post "bumped" every hour. If you take advantage of this rule, no posting for a week, month whatever. I think it's a shame, I can't say "nice rifle" or "PM sent" without getting a reprimand. You have a great thing here, and I understand you wanting to protect it. Thanks for listening.
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Last edited by Unforgiven; 07-30-2010 at 7:15 PM.. Reason: Grammar
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  #28  
Old 07-30-2010, 8:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpyoldretiredcop View Post
I like the rules as they currently are, having only these suggestions:

I prefer to see Rules 4 and 11 enforced strictly and without exception in the private sales forums. I don't care if the same is done in the commercial forum or not. We've had some time to get used to the new rules. Anyone who can't manage to read the "read before posting" sticky before posting might be motivated to do so when their post or thread is removed.

I'd also like to see Rule 13 modified to allow for "PM sent", "offer sent" entries, with the idea that potential buyers can get a better idea of whether or not the seller might be considering another offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
Just my $0.02 worth...
[I]I'd prefer the seller indicate the city, county or region (NorCal/Central/Socal) in the title.
It'd also be nice to know if the seller requires a FTF transaction for other items like ammo, holsters, etc.

Clarification:
Do the mods consider it "shilling" if a seller lists a gun with a photo and a scant description and another party provides a history & detailed description of the model series? If not, does it become shilling if the person says "I owned/own one of these and it's a really great ..." ? The comment is not about the gun for sale, but the model series.

Jus' askin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
1) No location - immediate deletion of post
2) No Price - immediate deletion of post

They'll learn.

That will cut down 4-5 bumps just asking for the info.
I agree with all of these.

At first, I was of the opinion that disallowing removal of price to be a good idea. However, after more consideration, there are many reasons nefarious or privacy-based for a seller to want to remove the final price. So, I think allowing this is ok.

Just my $.02
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Last edited by DeanW66; 07-30-2010 at 8:43 PM.. Reason: change 'person' to 'seller'
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  #29  
Old 07-30-2010, 9:03 PM
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13) Question and Inquiries about products listed in an ad...

Allowing questions that are pertinent, and responding with a pertinent answer, gives potential buyers more info/history that they themselves might not have thought of.

It also helps OP's avoid bumping their own threads.

Lastly, it's easy to get confused with so many pm's by people that really have no intention on buying, I think pm's should be sent by people who really want to make a serious offer, not the other way around.
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  #30  
Old 07-31-2010, 7:31 AM
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Maybe already been posted but:
Require location in title. If willing to ship, state that.

Require descriptive description.
IE: not "Gun for sale" but "Colt 45".

Require picture.

Require file name of attachments match the firearm.
IE: not image01.jpg but colt45.jpg
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Old 07-31-2010, 7:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destro360 View Post
im no expert in this area but def think that it would be more easily navigated and user friendly without all the jibber jabber in the market place threads. seems it would be a much nicer place to shop if all the fat was trimmed and all that we were looking at was what is important and whether the items are still available or not. maybe have a one bump/shilling per 24 hour rule..... i really like the idea of a bump button exclusive to the op
This.
The "jibber jabber" just knocks other threads down the page for no real purpose.
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  #32  
Old 07-31-2010, 11:50 AM
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You don't think the fact that there are 30-40 new listings a day has anything to do with knocking your listing down in short order?
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Old 07-31-2010, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
You don't think the fact that there are 30-40 new listings a day has anything to do with knocking your listing down in short order?
It absolutely has something to do with it. The jibber jabber just makes it worse.
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  #34  
Old 07-31-2010, 3:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsmoboat View Post
Maybe already been posted but:
Require location in title. If willing to ship, state that.
+1.

CA's so huge, that it gets annoying to find a good product, only to see that they're 400 miles away, and won't ship. This is particularity true with actual firearms, even just the county in the title would be a huge help.
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  #35  
Old 07-31-2010, 5:59 PM
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County is not enough... LA County is big enough that it can take 2 hours to drive from one end to the other without traffic. I say specific CITY so we know where it is.
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  #36  
Old 07-31-2010, 6:39 PM
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Enforce the no shilling rule, enforce the locations posted rule, allow and encourage for title/thread editing for sellers to remove old information and let people know what is sold and is active. Clean and trim the clutter and fat from the marketplace. There's too much backscratching and 'boy's networking' going on. Basically keep the rules as they now, but ENFORCE them! That's my druthers.
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  #37  
Old 07-31-2010, 10:54 PM
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Create a "BUMP" button.

Here's how it could work...
1. The button is only viewable by the creator of the thread
2. Only when the button is activated would the thread be bumped to the top of the sub forum.
3. Calguns would control how often the button can be used. Say every 12 or 24 hours.
4. Any posts' in the thread would NOT cause the thread to be bumped, only when the button is activated.

Benefits.
Less regulating or monitoring of excessive "bumping".
Allowing the "Silly" posts... "wish I had the money"... "wish you were closer"...
Shilling is no longer an issue.


Here is a picture of my bump button from another forum. It is illuminated GREEN when I am allowed to bump the thread... Otherwise it's grayed out.
edit... this pictured forum is also a vBulletin (same forum as CalGuns)




Last thought...

Allow "GOLD Up's"
Gold up's are paid BUMPS which keep the seller's thread on the top of the subforum for a specified amount of time... Say 4 days.
This would give the seller the exposure to sell his item AND give Calguns a steady source of revenue to FIGHT THE FIGHT.
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  #38  
Old 07-31-2010, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
County is not enough... LA County is big enough that it can take 2 hours to drive from one end to the other without traffic. I say specific CITY so we know where it is.
and then people'll ***** that they weren't familiar with that particular city name, but that if the seller had listed the county, that they would have taken it.
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  #39  
Old 07-31-2010, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvpark View Post
Here is a picture of my bump button from another forum. It is illuminated GREEN when I am allowed to bump the thread... Otherwise it's grayed out.
is that other forum a vbulletin forum? If not, that plugin might not be avialable for vbulletin.
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  #40  
Old 07-31-2010, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
is that other forum a vbulletin forum? If not, that plugin might not be avialable for vbulletin.
It's vBulletin
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