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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-22-2010, 1:42 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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Default .308 ammo for long range

I'm going to start trying my hand at some longer range shooting. What is a good practice round in .308 as far as grain weight and so on? Want to get a feel for it before I start plunkin' down cash for match grade ammo.
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Old 07-22-2010, 1:45 PM
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There is no cheap match grade ammo.
Trying to use cheap ammo is a waste of money and will just discourage you as it will have very poor results.
Do it right and get good ammo right from the start.
Save the blasting ammo for fruit and electronics.

168gr matchkings as loaded in federal gold medal match or Black Hills match ammo will get you to 800yds.
If you want to shoot to 1000yds, go with the 175gr matchkings instead.

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34
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Old 07-22-2010, 2:54 PM
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Randall, you didn't mention the benefits of handloading. Way to stay on topic, Sir.
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Old 07-22-2010, 2:56 PM
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Then perhaps I should add this link:

match ammo is too expensive
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Old 07-22-2010, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
There is no cheap match grade ammo.
Trying to use cheap ammo is a waste of money and will just discourage you as it will have very poor results.
Do it right and get good ammo right from the start.
Save the blasting ammo for fruit and electronics.

168gr matchkings as loaded in federal gold medal match or Black Hills match ammo will get you to 800yds.
If you want to shoot to 1000yds, go with the 175gr matchkings instead.

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34
This. Read and Heed.

Cheap Match Grade = oxymoron
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Old 07-22-2010, 5:30 PM
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There are shooters shoot up to 220 grain bullets in 308. Of course you have to have the barrel that can handle the bullet. In my experience with bolt guns and gas guns, either Federal Gold Medal Match with 175 grain bullets or Lake City M118LR with 175 grain bullets work well to 1,000 yards without much problem.

I reload mine with 168 and 175 grain bullets, but shoot 175 grain bullets exclusively, when I shoot beyond 300 yards.
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Old 07-22-2010, 5:54 PM
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HA! Practice LR ammo- what's that???
I practice using the same rounds i shoot matches with. with all the variables that can send a round off-course at LR distances (usually just me), why create another by having inconsistent ammo...
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Old 07-22-2010, 5:55 PM
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We have to practice?


No one told me that we have to practice!
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Old 07-22-2010, 7:47 PM
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We have to practice?


No one told me that we have to practice!
Don't worry you don't need to practice. Accuracy by volume, if you can't hit your target the first time with one shot, then just send about 30 rounds down range in it's general direction, statistically one of them will hit.
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Old 07-22-2010, 8:46 PM
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Don't worry you don't need to practice. Accuracy by volume, if you can't hit your target the first time with one shot, then just send about 30 rounds down range in it's general direction, statistically one of them will hit.
LOL a lot of people seem to adhere to this philosophy . . . we have a nickname for them at the range - we say that instead of 1 MOA they shoot 1 HPM (hit per mag).
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Old 07-22-2010, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
We have to practice?


No one told me that we have to practice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyro3k2 View Post
Don't worry you don't need to practice. Accuracy by volume, if you can't hit your target the first time with one shot, then just send about 30 rounds down range in it's general direction, statistically one of them will hit.
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Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
LOL a lot of people seem to adhere to this philosophy . . . we have a nickname for them at the range - we say that instead of 1 MOA they shoot 1 HPM (hit per mag).
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh !!!! I am learning lots about LR shooting ...
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Old 07-22-2010, 9:10 PM
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhh !!!! I am learning lots about LR shooting ...
Another good LR shooting tip: dont spend any money on optics of any sort...well besides red dots and buy as many clips as you can afford that way instead of taking one well aimmed shot and hitting your target the first time, you can look like a real bad *** on the line and do clip dumps. Your best five shot group will be spread over six 30 round clips and will not only impress the other people on the firing line but also make all the hot women in a 20 mile radius attracted to you ( im not sure why only 20 miles, I would imagine it would be 50 or so).


and for those of you without a sense of humor please don't think im serious and yes I know the difference between a magazine and a clip.
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Old 07-22-2010, 9:52 PM
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Don't worry you don't need to practice. Accuracy by volume, if you can't hit your target the first time with one shot, then just send about 30 rounds down range in it's general direction, statistically one of them will hit.
These are the same people that think an AR-15 or AR-10 makes a good precision rifle.
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Old 07-23-2010, 7:36 AM
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You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.

Sorry I asked. Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena. Sorry I wasn't born with a rifle in my hand and ballistics table in programmed in my head like all you shooting gods.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.

I was looking at the ITTS sniper course and they say you can bring 200rds of regular ball ammo and 100rds of match grade. Maybe I should have asked them for their recommenddation instead of you *****s.

And if you noticed I didn't ask about cost.....I asked about bullet weights. so perhaps y'all need to work on your reading comprehension instead of reading everything thru your "I know it all, god not another noob" filter.
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Old 07-23-2010, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.

Sorry I asked. Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena. Sorry I wasn't born with a rifle in my hand and ballistics table in programmed in my head like all you shooting gods.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.

I was looking at the ITTS sniper course and they say you can bring 200rds of regular ball ammo and 100rds of match grade. Maybe I should have asked them for their recommenddation instead of you *****s.

And if you noticed I didn't ask about cost.....I asked about bullet weights. so perhaps y'all need to work on your reading comprehension instead of reading everything thru your "I know it all, god not another noob" filter.

Those *******s and *****s your reffering to will teach you more in 10 minutes then you could learn in 10 weeks..... I finally get to use this pic!!!

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Old 07-23-2010, 7:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.

Sorry I asked. Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena. Sorry I wasn't born with a rifle in my hand and ballistics table in programmed in my head like all you shooting gods.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.

I was looking at the ITTS sniper course and they say you can bring 200rds of regular ball ammo and 100rds of match grade. Maybe I should have asked them for their recommenddation instead of you *****s.

And if you noticed I didn't ask about cost.....I asked about bullet weights. so perhaps y'all need to work on your reading comprehension instead of reading everything thru your "I know it all, god not another noob" filter.
No expert, but I heard 168.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:02 AM
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Those *******s and *****s your reffering to will teach you more in 10 minutes then you could learn in 10 weeks

Maybe....if they knew how to teach instead of just talk crap.

I asked an honest question and got a bunch of elistest ***** responses. Can't learn much from that. And with attitudes like that I will choose to learn elsewhere from those who enjoy teaching.

Guys like that forget that everyone hasta start somewhere and they once an FNG too. Being an "expert" doesn't give you the right to be a d!ck or to crap on people less experienced than you.

Try having some class. It's this kind of elitest crap that gives gunnies a bad name.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.

Sorry I asked. Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena. Sorry I wasn't born with a rifle in my hand and ballistics table in programmed in my head like all you shooting gods.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.

I was looking at the ITTS sniper course and they say you can bring 200rds of regular ball ammo and 100rds of match grade. Maybe I should have asked them for their recommenddation instead of you *****s.

And if you noticed I didn't ask about cost.....I asked about bullet weights. so perhaps y'all need to work on your reading comprehension instead of reading everything thru your "I know it all, god not another noob" filter.

Not sure where the venom is coming from, but most of us that are serious about Precision LR shooting roll their own ammo tailored to their rifle and shooting style. To answer your question directly, if all you're looking for is to get "trigger time" than ANY ball ammo will shoot about 2moa at 100yds. Most 7.62x51 Ball ammo is 146-150gr FMJBT. Some is Boxer primed and some is Berdan primed. Some corrosive and some not. You didn't provide any specifics on your rifle, optics, etc... Mid-range is 600yds, LR starts at 800yds.

For "us" 2moa is not accurate enough for our use and we have found it can become very frustrating to new shooters when they cannot hit their targets.

In regard to true match ammo; there are 168's and 175's are the most widely available with FGMM being the standard. 168's will work well to 800yds, 175's if you're going to 1Kyds. If you roll your own, then 155's are also available. SMK, AMAX, NCC, Berger, Lapua are the major bullet manufacturers of match bullets.

If you want to learn more then attend one of the CAPRC orientations.
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Last edited by buffybuster; 07-23-2010 at 8:24 AM..
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:22 AM
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Black Hills and Federal both offer match ammo in 168gr and 175gr. If you're limited to a 100yd range you should be fine with the 168gr. Be sure to save all of your once fired brass, later on down the road you will want to get into reloading. Having a good supply of brass will help off set costs when you get started.
Practice until you feel confident, then sign up for some matches at your local rod and gun club. Be humble and find a good mentor who can help take you to the next level.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:24 AM
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I don't know. It seems to me like Randall's first response should have answered your question pretty well.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:29 AM
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Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
Not sure where the venom is coming from, but most of us that are serious about Precision LR shooting roll their own ammo tailored to their rifle and shooting style. To answer your question directly, if all you're looking for is to get "trigger time" than ANY ball ammo will shoot about 2moa at 100yds. Most 7.62x51 Ball ammo is 146-150gr FMJBT. Some is Boxer primed and some is Berdan primed. Some corrosive and some not. You didn't provide any specifics on your rifle, optics, etc..

For "us" 2moa is not accurate enough for our use and we have found it can become very frustrating to new shooters when they cannot hit their targets.

In regard to true match ammo; there are 168's and 175's are the most widely available with FGMM being the standard. 168's will work well to 800yds, 175's if you're going to 1Kyds. If you roll your own, then 155's are also available. SMK, AMAX, NCC, Berger, Lapua are the major bullet manufacturers of match bullets.

If you want to learn more then attend one of the CAPRC orientations.
Thank you for a factual and informative response. That's all I needed to know. Rolling my own isn't an option for me at the moment which is why I asked. I dont plan to sit down on day one and be dingin' targets at 1K yds with the first shot, dont even have access to a 1k range right now anyway. So in the meantime I just wanted to get some trigger time to get a feel for the trigger and the action and so on....some of which I will be doing by dry fire also.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:32 AM
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I don't know. It seems to me like Randall's first response should have answered your question pretty well.
Except that most of his response was directed at aswering questions or inferning questions I didnt ask....and then everyone jumped on the band wagon with more smack talk that had nothing to do with the question I asked.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.
You should absolutely practice, but any practice you do with ball ammo is pretty much wasted and will just discourage you.
You need to practice with match grade ammo to get proper results.

Let's say you had a race car.
Would you go practice with crappy tires that don't allow you to push the car to it's limits and save the good tires for race day?
Of course not, all you would be learning was the limits of the tires, not of the car and the driver.
EFFECTIVE practice duplicates race conditions.

Shooting practice should be treated the same way.

If all you want to do is feel recoil, standard ammo will do that.

You can practice without ammo at home by simply dry firing.
Practice getting into position, getting a perfect cheekweld, using the rear bag, loading the bipod, breathing and breaking the shot.
Then run the bolt and do it again.
Dry firing is VERY effective practice, much more so than standard ball ammo.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-23-2010 at 8:48 AM..
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:33 AM
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I just recently switched from 168 SMK's to 175's, and shrunk my groups at 300+ yards. Still need to get out to 1000 yds though...
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:38 AM
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Except that most of his response was directed at aswering questions or inferning questions I didnt ask....
Most people asking the question you ask go on to say they want to use standard 147 or 150gr ammo to practice with and then will use good ammo later.
In fact, you said the same thing so you are like most people that the response was written to benefit.

Keep in mind that my responses are usually written for the benefit of the READER of a thread, not only for the OP.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:41 AM
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You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.
Sometimes you have to put up with a little smack-talk in order to get the really good advice that comes with it. Don't take it personal. The key is to figure out which few people on here can actually back their **** up, and then pay attention to them. There are only a few. If your desire to learn and improve is bigger than your ego, you will listen to them and smile at their sometimes-painful criticism, and even ask for another helping.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:41 AM
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I dont plan to sit down on day one and be dingin' targets at 1K yds with the first shot
Most first timers to our longrange clinic will take 4-6 shots to hit the 1000yd plate.
These are people that have usually not shot past 200-300yds before they show up at our clinic.

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=480
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-23-2010 at 8:45 AM..
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
You should absolutely practice, but any practice you do with ball ammo is pretty much wasted and will just discourage you.
You need to practice with match grade ammo to get proper results.

Let's say you had a race car.
Would you go practice with crappy tires that don't allow you to push the car to it's limits and save the good tires for race day?
Of course not, all you would be learning was the limits of the tires, not of the car and the driver.
EFFECTIVE practice duplicates race conditions.

Shooting practice should be treated the same way.

If all you want to do is feel recoil, standard ammo will do that.

You can practice without ammo at home by simply dry firing.
Practice getting into position, getting a perfect cheekweld, using the rear bag, loading the bipod, breathing and breaking the shot.
Then run the bolt and do it again.
Dry firing is VERY effective practice, much more so that standard ball ammo.

I used to race cars......but I didn't start racing cars the day after I finished driver's ed. I gained experience in a "daily driver" and by the time I was ready to hit the track driving was 2nd nature and only fine tuning of skills specific to race style driving was needed. I prefer a small steps approach to learning things.

I understand that better quality ammo produces better quality results esp at longer ranges, just like a properly set up race car handles better than a daily driver, but the base skills need to be acquired before you ever strap yourself into a race car.

I mean cut me some slack....Im picking up a new toy on Sat. and wanna play with it alittle till I have the time and place and funds for more serious and formal training which I intend to get. Dont take all the fun out of it.
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Old 07-23-2010, 8:59 AM
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Sometimes you have to put up with a little smack-talk in order to get the really good advice that comes with it. Don't take it personal. The key is to figure out which few people on here can actually back their **** up, and then pay attention to them. There are only a few. If your desire to learn and improve is bigger than your ego, you will listen to them and smile at their sometimes-painful criticism, and even ask for another helping.
People with eog issues don't ask questions. So when someone asks an honest question....dont answer them with ego. There is nothing to be learned or taught by that. The best teachers teach with patience and humility.
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Old 07-23-2010, 9:01 AM
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Black Hills and Federal both offer match ammo in 168gr and 175gr. If you're limited to a 100yd range you should be fine with the 168gr. Be sure to save all of your once fired brass, later on down the road you will want to get into reloading. Having a good supply of brass will help off set costs when you get started.
Practice until you feel confident, then sign up for some matches at your local rod and gun club. Be humble and find a good mentor who can help take you to the next level.
A wonderful post that is right on the money. Finding accuracy through hand-loading will become your passion.
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Old 07-23-2010, 9:02 AM
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And part of the reason I asked also is so that I can start keeping my eye out when good deals on match ammo come along, but I wanted to know what I should be looking out for.
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Old 07-23-2010, 9:06 AM
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If price is your concern you shouldnt worry much.

The cheapest .308 your going to find is the russian made stuff and the best you can find for it is around .30 a round.

You can get a case of 500 rounds of 168gr. Boat Tail Hollow Point Sierra Match King Federal Gold Metal Match for 600 dollars from gunbroker.com.

I have seen good results with the 175 SMK BTHP at the longer ranges and lots of people are using the 155gr. scenars with great results as well.

Be patient when looking for pricing though as most gun stores are well stocked in premium ammo at premium prices. I have seen BTHP from federal going for over 3 dollars a round for a box of 20.

Since you say that the majority of your shooting is going to be at the 100yard line you should seriously look into getting match grade ammo.

Like Randal said do dry fire pratices as it will help make you a more consistant shooter. The key here is getting a good repeatable shooting system down. Once you have a system that works and good ammo you can see how well your gun really shoots. At 100 yards your working with three things that will get you the results your shooting for. 1 you the shooter, 2 the gun your shooting, 3 the ammo. Not having these things mastered will not help you get what you want and you will not be able to track your progress as you will not have any idea of where to begin to address any problem that may arise down range.

I learned a long time ago that using a red dot laser pointer and a piece of black paper at the end of a hallway worked really well at teaching me to control things that could effect repeatable accuracy. Breathing control, cheek weld, sholdering the rifle, loading the bipod. These are all things that can be practiced without ever having firing a shot. A decent laser pointer cost me 50 dollars and I spent a couple hours a week at one end of the hallway learning control methods while aiming at a black piece of paper at the other end with a white sticker in the middle. I spent about a month doing that before I went to the range and it helped out a great deal.

Once you start shooting things you should learn to control are things such as flinching and calling the shot.
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Old 07-23-2010, 9:31 AM
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I generally buy most of my ammo online right now, and hopefully will be able to continue to do so if recently filed litigation comes thru in time.

With that in mind what would be considered a good price per round in today's market for match grade ammo?
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Old 07-23-2010, 9:36 AM
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With that in mind what would be considered a good price per round in today's market for match grade ammo?
$1.25

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...8gr-match-ammo
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:42 AM
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Duly noted. thank you sir!
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:47 AM
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I have an inexpensive used M70 Heavy Varmint, set the trigger myself, it is so so and put a good scope on it that I can move over to a custom rifle when my skills improve. This is my training wheels rifle. Scope cost 3X more than the rifle.

Factory Ammo

FGGM 168 works the best for it. It does not like FGMM 175's.

I bought one box of each to discover which worked best.

Now I use FGMM 168's as a control for my load development.

Handloaded Ammo

This works best but has an up front cost. I use Lapua brass, match primers etc.

My range only goes to 200, so I work on scope, wind, and physical factors of shooting one holes. I focus on repeatability of body and mind.

Get a Tac Ops cheek rest, data book and learn to keep good records.

Here is the cheapest FGMM 168 I have found,

http://www.mahsupplies.net/

Cheers
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:07 PM
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I have an inexpensive used M70 Heavy Varmint, set the trigger myself, it is so so and put a good scope on it that I can move over to a custom rifle when my skills improve. This is my training wheels rifle. Scope cost 3X more than the rifle.

Factory Ammo

FGGM 168 works the best for it. It does not like FGMM 175's.

I bought one box of each to discover which worked best.

Now I use FGMM 168's as a control for my load development.

Handloaded Ammo

This works best but has an up front cost. I use Lapua brass, match primers etc.

My range only goes to 200, so I work on scope, wind, and physical factors of shooting one holes. I focus on repeatability of body and mind.

Get a Tac Ops cheek rest, data book and learn to keep good records.

Here is the cheapest FGMM 168 I have found,

http://www.mahsupplies.net/

Cheers



man thats a good deal. 530.00 for a case of 500 rounds! gunna haf ta gitz me sum
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Old 07-23-2010, 4:58 PM
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You know.....sometimes you guys can be real elitest A-holes.

Sorry I asked. Why practice? New rifle and just wanna get a feel for it perhaps since I'm new to the .308 bolt rifle arena. Sorry I wasn't born with a rifle in my hand and ballistics table in programmed in my head like all you shooting gods.

And as of right now a 100yrd range is all I have access too, so I think standard ammo will work just fine at that range so I can get a feel for the rifle before I travel on to somewhere I can reach out further.

I was looking at the ITTS sniper course and they say you can bring 200rds of regular ball ammo and 100rds of match grade. Maybe I should have asked them for their recommenddation instead of you *****s.

And if you noticed I didn't ask about cost.....I asked about bullet weights. so perhaps y'all need to work on your reading comprehension instead of reading everything thru your "I know it all, god not another noob" filter.
First and fore most, Sorry you took my comments that way. AR-15 Barrels pretty much answered the question very early in the thread, I was just having some fun on calguns. In my mind it was at no ones expense and nor was it directed at anyone in paticular. Going back and re-reading my comments I could see how it may have been taken that way and I apologize fo such, in the future I'll either not post or just state it's not directed at any one. Again Sorry, my bad.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:34 PM
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man thats a good deal. 530.00 for a case of 500 rounds! gunna haf ta gitz me sum
You could get into reloading AND load 500 rounds of that same ammo for about the same price if you saved the brass you are shooting now.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=158086
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:10 PM
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You could get into reloading AND load 500 rounds of that same ammo for about the same price if you saved the brass you are shooting now.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=158086
Amen and halleluja.........

Thanks again Randall for all the information.
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