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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 04-03-2006, 7:22 PM
Mr. Ed Mr. Ed is offline
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Default Any success with Model1Sales

I'm interested in picking up an upper from Model1Sales.com.

Has anybody used them? Good or bad? Turn around time quick or slow? Suggestions???
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  #2  
Old 04-03-2006, 8:05 PM
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Their reputation is piss-poor. Buy cheap, buy twice.
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  #3  
Old 04-03-2006, 9:44 PM
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Product and performance top rate. I built my own A2 20" from them, and have helped several friends build up Model 1 kits.

all parts accounted for and present.

Fast shipping, everything you might want in stock every time, and prices cannot be beat. They use Shaw barrels, which are good. The Shaw barrels they use on the match grade stuff they make are very nice too.

No complaints. Prices cannot be beat anywhere. All parts US made, and Mil-Spec.

Might be different if the mil spec issue did not exist. Since good O'l Uncle Sam stepped in and set specs on every single part, you are safe to buy from compliant vendors.
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  #4  
Old 04-03-2006, 9:49 PM
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I bought an M4forgery kit from them and overall I was pretty happy with it.

Overall, I would give it an 8 out of 10. My only problem was that a couple of the springs were bent and I had to replace them. I had one spring (for the mag catch and didn't have to use) that was so bent I couldn't stick it in the hole for the spring.

Besides my bent springs, everything went together okay and the upper matched the color on my lower (Lauer) pretty well.

From everything I've read, a lot of people bad mouth Model 1 Sales but much of that is hearsay (my brother's cousins barber's kit...).
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  #5  
Old 04-03-2006, 9:55 PM
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Awesome first class kits. Very very nice!
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  #6  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:03 PM
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I've built 2 - 6.8spc uppers using Model1Sales barrels and both shoot great. They shipped both in a timely manner and, as posted above, their prices could not be beat!
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:16 PM
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Built two and both have worked great! Also I was missing a small part in one kit and the shipped it fast and free to me. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:54 PM
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Thanks...1 bad vs 6 good...I guess that's good.
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  #9  
Old 04-03-2006, 11:46 PM
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Got mine, assembled it, had a spring left over and now I need to dis-assemble it to put it in (disconnector spring, had crappy directions). Needless to say, I haven't fired it yet. Fit and finish seem nice, service was relatively good, pricing was great.

John
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2006, 12:02 AM
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I have 2 problems with them.

1) The website doesn't allow you to pick your shipping or even know how much shipping will be. They are supposed to email you back the shipping rate after you order. They didn't even do this. So I didn't know what the final price was until I got my order!
2) Ordered black furniture but got dark Grey A2 butt stock. Not Black. My friend has just got his kit and he has the same problem.

Overall the product and the quick delivery was excellent.
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  #11  
Old 04-04-2006, 7:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbillly
I have 2 problems with them.

1) The website doesn't allow you to pick your shipping or even know how much shipping will be. They are supposed to email you back the shipping rate after you order. They didn't even do this. So I didn't know what the final price was until I got my order!
2) Ordered black furniture but got dark Grey A2 butt stock. Not Black. My friend has just got his kit and he has the same problem.

Overall the product and the quick delivery was excellent.

I agree on your statement about product & delivery, though I reserve to adjust that comment since I haven't fired mine yet.

You're right, no notification on the shipping costs. I'll look mine up and post it here if I remember.

Black..... that's just a shade of Grey isn't it?

John
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2006, 8:29 AM
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Quote:
2) Ordered black furniture but got dark Grey A2 butt stock. Not Black. My friend has just got his kit and he has the same problem.
All A2 buttstocks are like that no matter where you order them from. You just need to oil them down real good and they will clean up.
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  #13  
Old 04-04-2006, 11:20 AM
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Why would anyone order from a bottom-feeder like Model1Sales when they can get Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Armalite, or other similar higher-grade vendor. And there are boutique houses that have top-notch reputations and that will build your custom upper for you to your specs (Global Tactical/Denny's Guns, CMMG, BravoCompanyUSA, Ameetec Arms,

M1S has been around for awhile. Their reputation is not stellar. For dudes that wanna slap a cheap rifle together and hope it works and desparately need to save $20 it may be OK. In fact I am sure they have _some_ or even many good parts, sometimes. But it varies. They were, for example, shipping buffers awhile back that really didn't look milspec (black plug filled w/shot).
Their bolts I saw didn't look great either. And only recently have they been offering chrome-lined barrels - one person inquired if such barrels from M1A were made from 4140 or 4150 steel and they didn't know.
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  #14  
Old 04-04-2006, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbillly
2) Ordered black furniture but got dark Grey A2 butt stock. Not Black. My friend has just got his kit and he has the same problem.
CLP + a paper towel will do wonders on that. I wiped it down, let it soak in, and let it dry - repeated the whole thing twice. My stocks from CWS came in dark grey and are now nice and black.
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  #15  
Old 04-04-2006, 4:55 PM
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What sort of material is the buttstock made out of? It feels strange.
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  #16  
Old 04-04-2006, 5:05 PM
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Quote:
For dudes that wanna slap a cheap rifle together and hope it works and desparately need to save $20 it may be OK.
People like me are the ones that buy from Model 1 because we dont have the money to spend on a full Bushmaster set-up. You don't save $20 bucks, you save hundreds. $470 for an XM177 kit from Model 1 vs. $700-800 for a Bushy set up, over $500 just for an upper!!! I've never seen anyone who has had a fitment, or function problem with Model 1, and I beleive the quality is almost the same.
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2006, 8:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhondaz50
People like me are the ones that buy from Model 1 because we dont have the money to spend on a full Bushmaster set-up. You don't save $20 bucks, you save hundreds. $470 for an XM177 kit from Model 1 vs. $700-800 for a Bushy set up, over $500 just for an upper!!! I've never seen anyone who has had a fitment, or function problem with Model 1, and I beleive the quality is almost the same.
That's because you guys are new to the whole black rifle scene.......MODEL 1 doesn't have a great rep or are known for their top notch quality.

Kinda like comparing a S&W to a ROSSI......gee they're almost the same.

But welcome to the World of Black Rifles...........live and learn!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2006, 9:25 PM
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I would agree that a name brand upper such as Colt and Bushmaster are of SLIGHTLY better quality (in my opinion) but if you want a cheaper build I haven't had problems with any of them. I have used Model 1, Bushmaster, and Colt for reference.
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  #19  
Old 04-06-2006, 9:14 AM
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Colt and Bushmaster owners would be surprised to know how many of their parts were made on the EXACT SAME MACHINES as the parts going to Model 1 Sales.

Mil contracts are Mil contracts. Every part in a Model 1 sales kit is Mil Spec. All US made by the way.

Some parts are different. Barrels are from Shaw. Shaw is not a bad barrel maker. The blanks may even come from the same factory as Bushmasters Barrel makers? I don't know. But I bet the naysayers don't know either.

I have a Colt, and cannot see any performance benefit over the M1S stuff.

If you don't like it, okay. Post personal experience only. If you can come on here and quip that you had a bad M1S rifle, say it.

To say their quality is not as good as A, B, or C without first hand experience is not cool.

You can save Hundreds of dollars buying a kit from M1S. If that is what you want to do, do it.

Would I build my Varmit match grade kit from M1S and expect the same accuracy as Armalite? Probably not. If on a budget and building a 16 inch CAR or 20 inch Govt A2, sure. When going Mil spec, They are a great value.

They also have given me perfect customer service, and fast shipping. They are nice on the phone, and have everything in stock. It is true the shipping amount seems to elude them on the website, but place your order over the phone and the problem is solved.

I think that the group is getting away from the idea here too. Not everyone on this board can build a $1,000 bushmaster. They want a California compliant "Black rifle" at a reasonable cost. Let them do it. Do not slam their choice of supplier, based on hearsay from 10 years ago.

As I said, I have a Colt that I've owned forever. I have not been buying uppers for the last 10 years. If M1S had issues, they seem to be gone. At least from my FIRSTHAND buying experience. I guess I'm glad that I missed the bad M1S years if they did in fact ever exist.

Darin
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  #20  
Old 04-06-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince50
Mil contracts are Mil contracts. Every part in a Model 1 sales kit is Mil Spec.
Milspec is one of the most incorrectly over-touted characteristics.

None of the parts in a M1S rifle - or for that matter, a commercial Colt or Bushmaster - are milspec. They haven't had the testing and/or documentation thereof that true milspec requires. They come off some of the same lines, sure. But that's where it ends.

Receivers (upper/lower) may come out of the same forging/machine house. However, upper/lower receivers are the least likely to be troublesome.

DPMS is a reasonably favored vendor (by some), touted as milspec, and many people here have complained about poor fit/function of some of their items.

[In all fairness, complete rifles may have more testing than parts - where the customer does the "testing by R&R".]


I won't buy 'small parts' from M1S, Sherluk, J&T, ASA, gunshow, etc. - esp springs. These are the things likely to make your AR not go bang. Having 7 ARs, and moving stuff around, I've gone thru some parts. The savings just aren't worth it. My Sherluk hammer/triggers springs were not good at all.

Quote:
Some parts are different. Barrels are from Shaw. Shaw is not a bad barrel maker. The blanks may even come from the same factory as Bushmasters Barrel makers? I don't know. But I bet the naysayers don't know either.
Well I know Bushmaster at least uses 4150 steel and chrome-lines their bbls.
(However, they do not coat (park) under the front sight base, which really should be done! Colt & even boutique houses do.) Most of the bottom feeders only offer 4140 nonchromed bbls. Many of the chromed bbls sold by smaller vendors are still 4140, not 4150.

None of these bottom feeder guys offer MPI (magnetic particle inspection) on barrels or bolts. Only the biggies and the small boutique vendors/assembly houses (CMMG, Ameetec, etc) do.

Two M1S uppers I've seen had rough chambers. That's an extraction issue right there. Shaw may make the barrels, but M1S is likely in charge of final reaming/polishing. One M1S bolt carrier was not chromed on inside.

Quote:
I have a Colt, and cannot see any performance benefit over the M1S stuff.
I'm happy for you. However, the several Colt uppers I have are much smoother in operation - along with my Armalite AR10 - during charging than their Bushmaster (or other) cousins. Some of this is due to the bolt carrier, and the rest due to fitment of bolt vs lugs on barrel extension.

Quote:
If you don't like it, okay. Post personal experience only. If you can come on here and quip that you had a bad M1S rifle, say it.
I can discuss possibilities and from what I've heard other knowledgable kit builders say about M1S. I've debugged several M1S rifles on the net and got them working. Lotsa guys built M1S ARs during the late 90s when there was less choice in AR stuff - it was either "ABC" (Armalite Bushmaster Colt") or Olympic, M1S/Sherluk - and there were lots of problems.

The M1S uppers I have handled did not have fit/finish of a company that is proud of its name, and the bolt carrier and bolt finishes looked crude, and they were not smooth during charging.


Quote:
To say their quality is not as good as A, B, or C without first hand experience is not cool.
I am uncool and have firsthand experience.

When a company ships a 4140 unlined barrel and a black plug full of BBs/shot for a buffer, that scratches them off my list because I am uncool. When I don't like unlined bolt carriers I am uncool. When I see rough chambers I am uncool.

Quote:
You can save Hundreds of dollars buying a kit from M1S. If that is what you want to do, do it.
The savings are so little it's not worth the trouble. The price comparisons above are a bit misleading - you're comparing MSRP of Bushy, etc. with regular M1S 'bottom feeder' prices. I've bought Bushy uppers, new, for $395 (though that was a couple of years ago) - sometimes you have to go thru a discount vendor instead of factory direct (MSRP).

A hundred bucks or so ain't a lot of money when it comes to having an operational rifle.

Over the last 10+ years, the AR rifles I've helped debug at local ranges are usually 'parts guns' from bottom-tier vendors, that have non-chrome-lined barrels. Invariably (if it's not a simple lube or magazine problem or incorrect assembly) these have been Oly Arms or M1S or M&A or Sherluk.


Quote:
I think that the group is getting away from the idea here too. Not everyone on this board can build a $1,000 bushmaster.
Who says Bushmasters cost $1000? I've seen the Cali legal ones on sale for $779. [We won't count DROS fees/tax either.]

Quote:
They want a California compliant "Black rifle" at a reasonable cost. Let them do it. Do not slam their choice of supplier, based on hearsay from 10 years ago.
Damn, a few more guys will be emailing me "why doesn't my rifle work" questions.
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Last edited by bwiese; 04-06-2006 at 12:01 PM..
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  #21  
Old 04-06-2006, 1:50 PM
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Put their 20" A2 upper on top of my stag lower. The finish is a spot on match. Their bolt catch was too tight. They told me to drill it out, I did, it broke. I had to haggle a little to get another one but they did finally do it. Working great. 500rnds through it with no problems.
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  #22  
Old 04-07-2006, 4:18 PM
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Bill,

let's agree to disagree here, but I would like to point out a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese
Milspec is one of the most incorrectly over-touted characteristics.

None of the parts in a M1S rifle - or for that matter, a commercial Colt or Bushmaster - are milspec. They haven't had the testing and/or documentation thereof that true milspec requires. They come off some of the same lines, sure. But that's where it ends.
You are thinking of Certified Milspec. Most of the parts made by all the manufacturers are built to Milspec. When they (Armalite, DPMS, Sabre, Colt, ect...) are filling a military contract, they have to randomly choose parts for Magnaflux, be able to certify material sources, and comply with ISO requirements. When not filling the military contracts, the parts are still made to the same specs, but without the costly paper trail required by uncle Sam. Are the parts exactly the same? You Betcha!

Now as for fitment, maybe some of the suppliers take parts with "extra machining marks, or blems, and use them for less expensive rifle kits. I don't know, and you may be right. I am posting my experience, and have not seen these issues.


Quote:
I won't buy 'small parts' from M1S, Sherluk, J&T, ASA, gunshow, etc. - esp springs. These are the things likely to make your AR not go bang. Having 7 ARs, and moving stuff around, I've gone thru some parts. The savings just aren't worth it. My Sherluk hammer/triggers springs were not good at all.
Sherluck ? I don't know who that is. The included springs in my kit are of good quality so far, and do make the rilfe go bang. If I have to upgrade the 2 most important springs someday, I'd still be big money ahead.

Quote:
None of these bottom feeder guys offer MPI (magnetic particle inspection) on barrels or bolts. Only the biggies and the small boutique vendors/assembly houses (CMMG, Ameetec, etc) do.
Is this somthing you have to request from "The Biggies" ? I've never seen it as an option in the catalogs from Colt, or Armalite? Is it included? If not what is the cost? If included, why don't we get a copy of the cert?

Quote:
Two M1S uppers I've seen had rough chambers. That's an extraction issue right there. Shaw may make the barrels, but M1S is likely in charge of final reaming/polishing. One M1S bolt carrier was not chromed on inside.
That is really bad, and poor customer service if M1S did nothing to correct it. Were they contacted about the problem? Did they respond? How long ago was this?

Quote:
I'm happy for you. However, the several Colt uppers I have are much smoother in operation - along with my Armalite AR10 - during charging than their Bushmaster (or other) cousins. Some of this is due to the bolt carrier, and the rest due to fitment of bolt vs lugs on barrel extension.
Yes you are right, the M1S, was not quite as smooth at first as my Colt. I bought my Colt used however, and cannot attest to the fact that it did not need to "work in". My M1S is now very smooth after just 200 rounds or so.

Quote:
I can discuss possibilities and from what I've heard other knowledgable kit builders say about M1S. I've debugged several M1S rifles on the net and got them working. Lotsa guys built M1S ARs during the late 90s when there was less choice in AR stuff - it was either "ABC" (Armalite Bushmaster Colt") or Olympic, M1S/Sherluk - and there were lots of problems.
If the major problems are fom the 90's, I feel maybe we should focus on what has happened lately. Shooters in general need more suppliers. In todays political/economic marketplace, I would hope we can support manufacturers willing to supply firearms and accessories. Especially at reasonable prices and with domestic product. (I cannot tell if M1S is in fact a manufacturer).

Quote:
Who says Bushmasters cost $1000? I've seen the Cali legal ones on sale for $779. [We won't count DROS fees/tax either.]
Even if we use your pricing, my M1S Govt model A2 20" cost me $595. $140 of that $595, was the receiver. The rest included the 10 round mag manufactured by Armalite, (Or by Armalite's vendor). That is $184 worth of savings. And the rifle performs flawlessly. (For now). With a 100% money back guarantee, and my apparent good luck, I got a good deal.

Quote:
Damn, a few more guys will be emailing me "why doesn't my rifle work" questions.
And when they do, I know that you will be there to help them. That is the beauty of the Net.

I am not here to argue. I am not affiliated with M1S. I do manufacture parts for the firearms industry, but am not bound by ISO, or Military certification. (Thankfully)

I do not have your experince with the AR as a platform. I do not know what you do for a living. If you are in the business of relying on your weapon for your life, perhaps your distrust of low price vendors is in order.

I hope all who can afford to buy off list lowers, do so. I then hope they all build them into compliant rifles and enjoy them.

I would hate it if someone were bashing my company for somthing that happened in the past, that I had not been given the chance to correct.

We all need to realize the power the internet has on the flow of dollars to a company. WE need to over estimate the power we have to direct business. You seem dead set on portraying a negative image of M1S. Lucky for them I have great experiences with them to date. I am simply here to make sure that people know it.

Thanks for your time and understanding. I look forward to your rebuttal.

Darin
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  #23  
Old 04-08-2006, 7:38 PM
Mr. Ed Mr. Ed is offline
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Default What about Del-ton?

There seems to be a lot of passionate debate about Model1Sales. What's the consensus about Del-ton? Good products, bad products?

Thanks. I want to order something soon.
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese
...Damn, a few more guys will be emailing me "why doesn't my rifle work" questions.
well I guess that's just the burden you bear for being Mr. AR.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2006, 11:47 PM
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Recieved my kit from Model 1 Sales on Friday, assembled it today and had absolutely zero problems, parts are nice, went bang on first shot and had no problems on rapid fire. great fit & finish; overall very happy!

20" stainless bull barrel, aluminum freefloat handguard, Versa-Pod, flat-top upper. With a 10 round Armalite mag and freight it was alot less than anybody else and after assembly and shooting, seems to be a very good value.
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2006, 8:07 AM
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While I am happy that several people have got good stuff from M1.....that's great.....

I would never tell someone to drill out any parts that they bought from me to make them fit....

U've made the point that after 200 rds it's working great.......but u have some AR experience already so u can rely on ur experience to make up any short falls on quality.........

ALL PARTS are not the same........I just hate it when a guy buys his first rifle uses so so parts and can't make work.

As a consumer.......spend ur money where u want.
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  #27  
Old 04-11-2006, 4:27 AM
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i have used model1sales and i'm pleased with the performance and fit of the upper i'm currently using. i will use them again if i ever need to. nice and friendly guys on the phone. i can tell you later where i'm using the upper i bought from them.
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Old 04-11-2006, 6:51 AM
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purchased a lightweight barrel a2 for my wife and it was a PITA to zero. I also have purchased a Lower parts kit, and the hammer skimms over the "disconnector?" making a metal to metal contact sound. Visual inspection verifies the rubbing from poor quality parts. Would I buy again...? Im not sure, Im relatively happy with the Lightwieght 16in barrel now. I woud say do it right from the start. Dont get frustrated early on in the building process from milspec skewed parts. They work fine though, but the price difference over a delton or others is small now.
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Old 04-11-2006, 9:46 AM
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Received my M1S and so far have been pleased even though it is not fully assembled yet due to detent pins being somewhere in my kitchen after doing not a very good job trying to install them. I did get a total price from them as I sent in a Postal money order. $491 including shipping for a standard 20" A2 w/chrome lined barrel. What kind of oil should be used on the stock? What is CLP? By the way, the original triangular M-16 handguard I was given looks GREAT on the rifle.
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:06 AM
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By the way, I emailed Model1, 1 1/2 weeks ago with my gray stock question. They replied today to use oil. Not a very swift response...
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schottded
[SIZE="2"]What is CLP?
break free CLP, a C leaner, L ubricant and P reservative, all in one. get it at sporting goods stores. not the best cleaner, but a great lube and preservative.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glen avon
break free CLP, a C leaner, L ubricant and P reservative, all in one. get it at sporting goods stores. not the best cleaner, but a great lube and preservative.
I think I have everything BUT Break Free. Can Hoppes, or Tri-lube be used or?
Thanks!! Joe
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:38 PM
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6172crew 6172crew is offline
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All GI "A2" stocks are grey not black. The A1 stock will be grey to match your triangle handgaurds.
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Old 04-11-2006, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schottded
I think I have everything BUT Break Free. Can Hoppes, or Tri-lube be used or?
Thanks!! Joe
yes, any oil.
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Old 04-11-2006, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6172crew
All GI "A2" stocks are grey not black. The A1 stock will be grey to match your triangle handgaurds.
My triangle handguards are black. My buddy in Arizona has an original 1960's M16-A1 and it is all black. I've shot them in the military and cannot remember a gray buttstock. Hopefully it's just that it needs oil.
Joe
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Old 04-11-2006, 1:38 PM
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Joe, the ones you and I carried in service had cammy paint, mixed with mudd, sweat, clp, etc. ......They were grey if they were A2s, and blacl if A1s

The oil will turn it black
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Old 04-11-2006, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schottded
My triangle handguards are black. My buddy in Arizona has an original 1960's M16-A1 and it is all black. I've shot them in the military and cannot remember a gray buttstock. Hopefully it's just that it needs oil.
Joe
A2 buttstocks are grey. A1 are black. if you want a buttstock to match your triange HGs, you need an A1 buttstock.
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Old 04-11-2006, 1:48 PM
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Sorry Joe, I just saw that I typed grey for A1, its A2 is grey and A1 blacl like Glen said .
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Old 04-11-2006, 4:03 PM
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Ok got it. I guess I'll have to look for an A1 buttstock. Will it fit an A2 rifle?
By the way, the A1 I used in the service was way before the gov't had ideas of camo.I was never issued any camo uniforms either...Dang!
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Old 04-12-2006, 8:31 AM
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Thanks!! I'm gonna look for one. I'll let you know what I come up with...
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