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  #1  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:40 AM
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Default Ace tube for AR15 pistol legal?

I was at Castro Valley Bullseye today and wanted to ppt my RRA ar15 pistol lower, however they told me that they wouldn't ppt on ar15 pistol (considing they do sell mac10) which I totally understand, but I had an ace tube attached to my ar15 pistol lower, and they told me that I was inpossion of an AOW... is it true that? considering that it doesn't have buttstock nor do I have parts for it.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:45 AM
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It is untrue. An extention tube is an extremely important part of the actions and is not a buttstock, the ATF has backed this up several times. 99% of AR pistols utilize an extention tube. AOW has nothing to do with it
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:49 AM
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yeah I just wanted to make sure that I stand correct with the laws, thanks for the help.
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Old 06-05-2010, 2:37 PM
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You could be in possession of an AOW if you have a forward vertical grip (I believe). Could that be possibly why they told you that?
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Old 06-05-2010, 3:01 PM
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Ya.... that was a double shot of FUD.
An AR pistol improperly configured related to the buffer tube/buttstock would be an SBR, not an AOW.

A Glock with a VFG mounted to the rail would be an AOW.
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Old 06-05-2010, 3:09 PM
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If your Ace buffer tube is one to which a stock could be readily attached, and if you had the required stock parts in your possession or control, you would be in constructive possession of a SBR, not an AOW. Since you don't have the stock parts in your possession, that would seem not to be the case.

Sounds like someone at Bullseye CV doesn't know the difference between a SBR and an AOW, nor what constitutes either.

It still seems to me to be a good idea to use AR pistol buffer tubes on AR pistols. No provision for ready attachment of a stock makes for a simpler picture. Some of the AR pistols I see pictures of give me the heebie-jeebies (standard carbine buffer tubes with paracord wrapped around them, as an example).
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Old 06-05-2010, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalGuns View Post
I was at Castro Valley Bullseye today and wanted to ppt my RRA ar15 pistol lower, however they told me that they wouldn't ppt on ar15 pistol (considing they do sell mac10) which I totally understand, but I had an ace tube attached to my ar15 pistol lower, and they told me that I was inpossion of an AOW... is it true that? considering that it doesn't have buttstock nor do I have parts for it.
I have a few Ace products - exactly which Ace tube is mounted?
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Old 06-05-2010, 8:23 PM
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WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE CALGUNER who started this thread BUT,

I was there and witnessed the whole conversation at Castro Valley Bullseye and the person at the counter NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT AOW... He simply explained that the extension tube is made to accept a buttstock and since there are buttstocks inside the premises, the ATF can come down pretty harshly on the shop for a Constructive possesion of a SBR which is a NFA regulated item.

The "person" who explained this to the customer, is a very well known and well experienced person in the bayarea, who has a lot of experience with Black Rifles, AK's, and Rifle Pistols! Im sure that if I mention his name most of you know and respect this person and will understand that he knows his sh*t when it comes to these kind of things!

The customer was told to put a tube that cannot accept a buttstock and that should fix the problem. However, the customer just wouldn't take the advice of a experienced person and kept insisting that he knows better. It came to a point that he was even told that if he takes his lower to Irvington Arms, they would turn the lower to the ATF and most likely he would be arrested for a possesion of a constructive device.

It's not worth the risk...

Furthermore, the "mac10 clone" doesn't have any way to accept a buttstock which makes it a fully legal off the list pistol in California and doesn't come close to the "FEDERAL NFA LAW"!

Last edited by abusalim81; 06-05-2010 at 9:21 PM..
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  #9  
Old 06-05-2010, 8:29 PM
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Still not buying it.

Constructive possession is constructive possession.
Regardless of what tube he has installed on his pistol, the fact that there are ANY AR buttstocks in the store means that anyone could spend the 90 seconds needed to make the swap with little more effort than to simply slip an A4 buttstock over his ACE tube.

And again, the charge would not be AOW... it would be SBR, so this "very well known and well experienced person in the bayarea, who has more experience with rifle pistols and ATF than most people" was wrong on at least one point.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #10  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Still not buying it.

Constructive possession is constructive possession.
Regardless of what tube he has installed on his pistol, the fact that there are ANY AR buttstocks in the store means that anyone could spend the 90 seconds needed to make the swap with little more effort than to simply slip an A4 buttstock over his ACE tube.

And again, the charge would not be AOW... it would be SBR, so this "very well known and well experienced person in the bayarea, who has more experience with rifle pistols and ATF than most people" was wrong on at least one point.
Why don't you call Irvington Arms in Fremont who were featured in the news all around Bay Area since they were one of the 1st gun shops in BAY AREA to deal with these kind of firearms and ask to see what they say! You won't like the answer...

"And again, the charge would not be AOW... it would be SBR, so this "very well known and well experienced person in the bayarea, who has more experience with rifle pistols and ATF than most people" was wrong on at least one point." AGAIN HE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT AOW, HE SAID SBR!

Last edited by abusalim81; 06-05-2010 at 9:32 PM..
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:06 PM
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Agree on the SBR, but to put maybe a finer point on it.

As I understand it the theory of constructive possession also involves control and more than mere physical possession, isn't it? If the seller showed up with the "handgun OK" tube on his AR handgun and there were other AR tubes in the store inventory capable of of accepting a buttstock (I think) he'd be OK because the AR pistol is under his control and the others (rifle buffers) are not. The store would be OK because the AR pistol is not under their control. But, even with the OK tube attached, if the AR pistol were turned over to the store for sale, the store would then have constructive possession (control) of the AR handgun AND rifle buffers.

Not sure on this, just sort of walking through it ....

Last edited by dfletcher; 06-05-2010 at 10:47 PM..
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:13 PM
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The worker also explained that the owner of Bullseye doesn't feel comfortable with AK and AR pistols YET but was looking into it in the near future... But even then he should not have a regular AR rifle tube on the registered AR pistol because it's too much of a risk for both sides, the shop & the customer!

The customer could have made it so much easier just by installing a different tube onto the lower!

There are a lot of gun stores out there who would not jeoperdize their business for a $10 PPT transaction... Thats just the way it is!

Last edited by abusalim81; 06-05-2010 at 9:25 PM..
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  #13  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abusalim81 View Post
AGAIN HE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT AOW, HE SAID SBR!
OP claimed AOW, not SBR.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 06-05-2010, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalGuns View Post
I was at Castro Valley Bullseye today and wanted to ppt my RRA ar15 pistol lower, however they told me that they wouldn't ppt on ar15 pistol (considing they do sell mac10) which I totally understand, but I had an ace tube attached to my ar15 pistol lower, and they told me that I was inpossion of an AOW... is it true that? considering that it doesn't have buttstock nor do I have parts for it.
IDK if you got your transfer done yet or not but PM DaChan he is a FFL here in the Bay Area. Good guy!
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Old 06-05-2010, 9:28 PM
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lets see this ace tube
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
OP claimed AOW, not SBR.
I was there and heard exactly what was said and the OP said the customer would be in possesion of device and intent for construction of a SBR.

Last edited by abusalim81; 06-05-2010 at 9:39 PM..
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Old 06-05-2010, 9:50 PM
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Wow way to twist what I said.

I told you about constructive possession as you had an entry stock buffer tube installed.

I told you it could/would be an SBR. If they wanted to press constructive possession and that I didn't want it in the shop.

You called Irvington and they told you something similar(or so you led me to believe).


Hey your such the expert. Put your *** on the line and call up the Dublin ATF field office and have them look it over.

I love the way you bring this up. Anyone on calguns who knows me,knows I will walk the legal line more than most
that said it's not your *** on the line when it's In my possession.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2010, 9:54 PM
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Now we're apparently hearing both sides of the story.

Edit - and this is a perfectly reasonable point of view on the part of Bullseye CV

Quote:
Originally Posted by abusalim81 View Post
He simply explained that the extension tube is made to accept a buttstock and since there are buttstocks inside the premises, the ATF can come down pretty harshly on the shop for a Constructive possesion of a SBR which is a NFA regulated item.
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Last edited by Grumpyoldretiredcop; 06-05-2010 at 9:59 PM..
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
OP claimed AOW, not SBR.
Who cares about what amounts to a semantics issue? You're losing the big picture. It's a very bad idea to have an AR pistol with a standard buffer tube; too easy to put a stock on it even without worrying about constructive. That's why all real pistol buffer tubes negate the possibility of installing a stock. Thanks for the plug "z", but Bullseye was perfectly within their rights to refuse accepting this item.
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Old 06-06-2010, 1:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cseabass View Post
Wow way to twist what I said.

I told you about constructive possession as you had an entry stock buffer tube installed.

I told you it could/would be an SBR. If they wanted to press constructive possession and that I didn't want it in the shop.

You called Irvington and they told you something similar(or so you led me to believe).


Hey your such the expert. Put your *** on the line and call up the Dublin ATF field office and have them look it over.

I love the way you bring this up. Anyone on calguns who knows me,knows I will walk the legal line more than most
that said it's not your *** on the line when it's In my possession.
I totally understand where you are coming from, but I was trying to educate myself on the whole idea of the ace tube, parhaps I miss understood your ideas of constructive possession/aow/sbr, from what I heard that ace tube was perfectly fine to have on ar pistol as long as I don't have any parts to making it to a buttstock, I'll change the configuration on my ar pistol and remove the ace tube, and again I wanted to apologize to all the staff at CV Bullseye.
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  #21  
Old 06-06-2010, 1:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 247Nino View Post
lets see this ace tube

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Old 06-06-2010, 1:26 AM
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http://www.jsesurplus.com/acepistolbuffertubekit.aspx
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  #23  
Old 06-06-2010, 12:26 PM
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The top tube would be fine. The bottom tube could be used to anchor a stock. Therfore could qualify as constructive possession.
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  #24  
Old 06-06-2010, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cseabass View Post
The top tube would be fine. The bottom tube could be used to anchor a stock. Therfore could qualify as constructive possession.
And GTG with a sling mount pinned/welded into the rear of the tube?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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