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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 05-18-2010, 9:03 AM
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Default "BCM is so fairly priced".... "Noveske is overpriced".... Common misconception!

Just did the math here:

$779 for BCM Standard 14.5" Middie w/ DD LITE 12" Handguard + $45 to permanently install FH + $139.95 for BCM BCG + $218 for front and rear Troy BUIS = $1,181.95

Noveske N4 Light = $1,295 (Already comes with all of those parts and has perm VORTEX FH)

1,295-1,181.95= $113.05 difference.... and the Noveske comes with their renowned hammer forged barrels and VLOT MUR upper!!




I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that BCM uppers are priced so much better than the competition and that Noveske's are overpriced..... Looks to me that you actually get more bang for your buck with Noveske. The math would be actually be even more in favor of Noveske if you got a BCM BFH with the MUR (which is a configuration they offer). Both are great uppers but I just wanted to throw this out there.

I will say that I am a little torn now. I really like the idea of having a 14.5in middie but the Noveske comes with the hammer forged barrel and VLTOR MUR upper!!

SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)

Last edited by TacticalChihuahua; 05-18-2010 at 9:15 AM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 9:09 AM
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http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=5&output=html

anyone know the difference between m249 steel (Noveske) and B-11595E (bcm?)
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Old 05-18-2010, 9:14 AM
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mine was more like: $439 for 16" middy upper w/FSB, free mid-length plastic handguards, $130 for bolt carrier assembly from riflegear.com, $110 for detachable carry handle.

total: $679

but i see your point, if you want the exact same setup as noveske with the 12" rail and flip sights, Noveske is a slightly better deal.
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Old 05-18-2010, 9:17 AM
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all things considered, a KAC SR-15 E3 upper is a great deal too.
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Old 05-18-2010, 9:24 AM
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What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)
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Old 05-18-2010, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)
I dont really know anything, but i personally prefer the mid-length with 1:7 twist for heavier grain loads and more muzzle velocity. also, i hear that middies are easier on the gas system than a carbine length.

I dont know about barrel forging, but the functional benefits of the MUR upper are nil.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pacrimguru View Post
all things considered, a KAC SR-15 E3 upper is a great deal too.
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)
Well, BCM offers a hammer forged barrel so if you want it, its there. As far as the MUR upper, its strictly a looks thing.

I say this with the caveat that its your weapon and your scratch so buy what you want, but I've never seen the point of having a 14" AR unless you live in a state that allows you to actually have a 14" AR. In reality you are making a choice between two 16" AR's, just one has better ballistics and a better chance of functioning reliably.

The reason that people rave about BCM being cheaper is that they are equal to colt quality wise, at a much cheaper price rifle for rifle. When you get into particular combinations or other manufacturers this may or may not be true.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper?? (I also would be most likely attatching a vortex on the BCM which would cost even more)
If you're a recreational shooter the benefits of any of those components are marginal at best, and it's more an issue of what you want and how much you want to spend.

In terms of functional benefits or lack thereof...

The 14.5" middy will arguably be a bit softer-shooting. It's not like .223 has a lot of recoil anyway, but one could argue that mid-length gas in a 14.5" will help with follow-on shots. In terms of reliability/wear and tear, I don't see this being an issue on a 14.5" carbine. That argument has more to do with over-gassed 16" carbines.

CHF is a nice-to-have feature but I wouldn't spend extra for it. A standard chrome-lined barrel from BCM will shoot better than most people can and will last 30-50k rounds if not more. If you can afford the ammo to shoot out that barrel, then the cost of replacing the barrel is not meaningful.

I would get a MUR if I were building a precision rifle with a magnified optic for long-distance shooting. Otherwise it makes no difference functionally.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by fullspeed1 View Post
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!
What more you want that's ready to drop on a lower and shoot. Front/rear flip ups, bcg, ch is all included. Mid-length KAC 16" upper shiet I'm on it for my next build.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
SO..... What I'm trying to ask is: In your opinion, do you guys think that the benefits of having a middie outweigh the benefits of having a hammer forged barrel and MUR upper??
I need more info: What are your group sizes at 100 yds...no sandbags, no bench rest...how do you shoot standing up??

-hanko
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fullspeed1 View Post
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!
sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrimguru View Post
sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.
I think the theme of this thread is, when comparing pricing for items, make sure to do an apples to apples comparison and also assess whether certain features are worthwhile to you or not. The KAC upper does sound pricey at first but when you look deeper, it comes loaded with a lot of accessories (even some rail panels not mentioned above) and a bunch of additional features. You just have to decide what that's worth to you.

And I think that was the OP's point -- compare pricing for similar configurations. Even then, there will be some differences and then you have to decide what those are worth to you.

Faldeez, what do you intend to do with this upper? That might help folks give you feedback/ideas. Generally speaking, I am pretty in line with what Omega was saying.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fullspeed1 View Post
Yup, $1450 for an upper assembly only? Phenomenal deal!
http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial...=13#googlebase

$1310 WITH the KAC sights, E3 bolt and a URX II rail, yeah, that actually is a good deal compared to the Noveske.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:42 PM
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I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed ). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially with the ammo ban coming up in 2011 that might make it harder to choose which type of ammo you can get your hands on for a good price. Also a little discouraging for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far

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Old 05-18-2010, 12:51 PM
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Damn you all, stop talking about awesome upper, I don't have the money and still need to get my 6.8 upper back from Randall and finish that build. :hint,hint:
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed ). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far
I have an H buffer for my mid length that I've shot just about every brand of ammo out of. I have not had issues with any of it. I am using cheap tula now for large quantity shooting while running a ratio 100/300 rounds of federal or pmc to save up the brass for reloading. $120 for a short day of shooting just brass won't work for me. Once I have about 2000 brass cases saved I will only be shooting the reloads
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falzdeez View Post
I would be using the rifle for the range, carbine courses, and possible home defense or shtf. I know someone is going to comment that a shotgun is better for HD, but I have my reasons (and i have a shotgun if needed ). I would be using an aimpoint with throw magnifier, VFG/AFG, and a light.... also probably use a bipod at times for the range.

A lot of people have been mentioning that CHF and MUR are nice features but not worth the extra money. My whole point to this thread is to say that you are not paying extra for them with the Noveske upper. In fact you are paying the same as you would for BCM upper without those two features!

My only gripe with the Noveske is that the BCM's midlength gas system looked like an attractive option that could tip the scale for me. I wanted you're guys opinions as to whether the mid length gas system is going to make that much of a difference in the performance of the rifle's follow ups.

But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think? Especially for a possible shtf rifle (wouldn't want to run accross some .223 and start having issues)...... And I have read reports of the bolt not holding open at the end of a magazine.

I'm just pretty confused right now on what direction to go and was hoping for some other people's opinions..... And I appreciate everyone's help so far
I think you said BCM was ~$100 cheaper, don't they have a configuration with a carbine length gas system? Would that be even cheaper from BCM?

Which flash hider does the BCM come with? It's probably fine (vs the Vortex)

Didn't quite catch the part about midlength gas on a 14.5 bbl, yeah, personally I'd probably stick with a carbine length gas system on a 14.5". On a 16" midlength gas for sure, no downsides I can see and all upside. (well except maybe for availability of replacement midlength gas tubes if SHTF! )

However, I would add that I prefer to be able to service my weapons, so I only have a 14.5" barrel with perm muzzle attachment on a system like the MRP where I can remove the barrel. I'd think even more carefully about this as you note this is potentially a SHTF build. If you're worried about potential malfs from "battlefield pickup" ammo, then perhaps you should worry about how you'd grind off a permanently attached flash hider if you need to service your weapon after SHTF.

Also note some small differences in the BCG from Bravo vs Noveske (see the Google Spreadsheets link someone posted above).

Just some more thoughts to further confuse you.
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:03 PM
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I have an H buffer for my mid length that I've shot just about every brand of ammo out of. I have not had issues with any of it. I am using cheap tula now for large quantity shooting while running a ratio 100/300 rounds of federal or pmc to save up the brass for reloading. $120 for a short day of shooting just brass won't work for me. Once I have about 2000 brass cases saved I will only be shooting the reloads
Is it a 16in barrel? the only time BCM mentions it is for their 14.5 middies
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:10 PM
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eskay now im really confused!

No, BCM carbine length is the same price. They use an A2 FH

Man, the kac sure does seem nice too..... ugh! I wish there was a gun gypsie with a crystal ball that could just tell me what my perfect gun would be because I sure don't have any idea
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:14 PM
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I don't know, I think they are both a little overpriced. That just makes people want them more.

Don't get me wrong. Both offer very high quality products and I like them. However, there is no denying a decent chunk of the sticker price on both brand's products is about paying for the name. They are not the only brands guilty of this and I certainly am not going to blame them for making a living. I am just saying, BCM is hardly "so fairly priced". There are other brands of equal or greater value/quality for less money. That does not mean I wouldn't buy their products. Heck, I even sell a couple of their products. Some people want to pay for name. Sometimes I myself want to pay for a name. Nothing wrong with that.

Given a choice between BCM and CMMG, I would go with CMMG.

Given a choice between Noveske and KAC (as mentioned above) I would go with KAC.

Still, it can get more complicated than that. Sometimes one has the setup you want right that minute while you would have to wait for something else. So you pay a little more in order not to have to wait. Nothing wrong with that either.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 05-18-2010 at 1:27 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:22 PM
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What are the other brands that are better quality for less money? Colt, BCM, DD, and LMT are easily the top dogs and Noveske is tipping at their heels. Bushmaster? Armalite? CMMG? Those guys don't even come close. Not saying they make bad stuff, it just isn't in the same league as those guys.

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I don't know, I think they are both overpriced

Don't get me wrong. Both very high quality uppers and rifles and I like them. However, there is no denying a decent chunk of the sticker price on both brand's products is about paying for the name. They are not the only brands guilty of this and I certainly am not going to blame them for making a living. I am just saying, BCM is hardly "BCM is so fairly priced". There are other brands of equal or greater value/quality for less money. That does not mean I wouldn't buy their products. Heck, I even sell a couple of their products.
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:26 PM
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josh you don't think noveske and kac are at par with DD, LMT, BCM and Colt? Why?
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Old 05-18-2010, 1:34 PM
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Josh,

I have to disogree.

KAC is definately on par if not better than Noveske (as Valkrye Tactical explains above). I would definately prefer an SR-15 or SR-16 upper to a Noveske, but they are not always easy to find and usually only available in a few configurations. Until recently KAC focused on complete rifles, and not uppers and they are still a minor part of their business. So Noveske has them beat on variety. I would also say LMT is pretty much neck and neck with Noveske, though they do offer some traditional mid-level stuff their high-end stuff is right on par. Just because a company offers some mid-level products does not devalue their high-end products.

As for BCM, their are a lot of companies right on par with them, many of which you listed and said were not. I do not see anything all that special about BCM. Sure they have DPMS and Bushmaster beat hands down. But not CMMG. CMMG is apples to apples the same with them with regards to the quality of their products, they just have a lousy marketing department so you can't tell what they have (their website is crap). They offer some entry-level stuff but they also offer some high-end stuff that surpasses anything I see on BCM's website (then again maybe they have stuff not listed as well). CMMG has jumped through hoops for me when and if anything goes wrong, while I wasn't impressed at all with BCM's service in comparisson. So it is all very subjective.

All that said...this is a lot like arguing whether Ferrari is better than Porsche. At some point it is simply a matter of opinion. Personally I would choose the Ferrari, but my stepfather would have (and did) gone for the Porsche every single time.
The same holds true with peoples choices in firearms, parts, and accessories.

The truth is we should count ourselves darn lucky we can splurge on any of these rifles. They are all pretty darn cool.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 05-18-2010 at 1:50 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 2:38 PM
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Josh,

I have to disogree.

KAC is definately on par if not better than Noveske (as Valkrye Tactical explains above). I would definately prefer an SR-15 or SR-16 upper to a Noveske, but they are not always easy to find and usually only available in a few configurations. Until recently KAC focused on complete rifles, and not uppers and they are still a minor part of their business. So Noveske has them beat on variety. I would also say LMT is pretty much neck and neck with Noveske, though they do offer some traditional mid-level stuff their high-end stuff is right on par. Just because a company offers some mid-level products does not devalue their high-end products.

As for BCM, their are a lot of companies right on par with them, many of which you listed and said were not. I do not see anything all that special about BCM. Sure they have DPMS and Bushmaster beat hands down. But not CMMG. CMMG is apples to apples the same with them with regards to the quality of their products, they just have a lousy marketing department so you can't tell what they have (their website is crap). They offer some entry-level stuff but they also offer some high-end stuff that surpasses anything I see on BCM's website (then again maybe they have stuff not listed as well). CMMG has jumped through hoops for me when and if anything goes wrong, while I wasn't impressed at all with BCM's service in comparisson. So it is all very subjective.

All that said...this is a lot like arguing whether Ferrari is better than Porsche. At some point it is simply a matter of opinion. Personally I would choose the Ferrari, but my stepfather would have (and did) gone for the Porsche every single time.
The same holds true with peoples choices in firearms, parts, and accessories.

The truth is we should count ourselves darn lucky we can splurge on any of these rifles. They are all pretty darn cool.
There are some objective criteria that one can examine in comparing these various manufacturers. The link posted earlier compiles a bunch of them:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=5&output=html

Each person can make their own determination on how much importance they place on each.

KAC is not listed on that spreadsheet, but is certainly considered a top tier company, not sure if anyone has similar data on their products.
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Old 05-18-2010, 2:48 PM
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sorry OP if this is off topic, but i have to school fullspeed1 on this.

you clearly have no idea what an SR-15 E3 is. the KAC E3 rounded lug has been engineered for unsurpassed longevity and reliability, the E3 bolt features 2 extractor springs, the barrel is hammer forged, features a gas system that shoots softer than your regular mid-length gas system, and is really light weight. it comes with a longer than standard mid-length free float rail that features 5 QD mounts and both front and rear back up iron sights - the front one being integral within the rail the the rear is a 200-600 adjustable sight. there really is no match when it comes to what you get.
Thank you, I have now been enlightened. Would this particular upper allow me to shoot like Chris Costa? Going back to the OP, The BCM upper options seem somewhat limitless. The specs, By comparison are all good, And for the prices you can't seem to go wrong.
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:13 PM
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Thank you, I have now been enlightened. Would this particular upper allow me to shoot like Chris Costa? Going back to the OP, The BCM upper options seem somewhat limitless. The specs, By comparison are all good, And for the prices you can't seem to go wrong.
Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:17 PM
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But it also seems as though a mid length gas system may not be the best route for a 14.5in barrel. This is quoted from BCM's website:
"These 14.5" mid length gas barreled upper receiver groups have been specifically tuned to be a very soft and fast shooting set up. They are a joy to shoot, but please feed it good ammo. With good milspec pressured ammo we have been running H buffers. We do not recommend using lower powered ammo. If using less than milspec pressured ammo, it may be best to run a standard carbine buffer."

A little discouraging don't you think?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Just run a regular carbine buffer. But if it makes you that anxious get a 14.5" carbine instead.

Here's the thing. They will all go "bang" when you pull the trigger. They will all put a round downrange more accurately than most people can. At a certain level of quality, all the arguing over which barrel or rail is "better" is a waste of time and you have to decide what works for YOU. All of the higher-end stuff is plenty good for what you're talking about.

When you go to a carbine class you'll see every configuration under the sun. So there is no "right" or "best" setup, only what's best for YOU. I see more failures from lack of lube and bad ammo than anything else. What does that tell you?
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:22 PM
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Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.
Damn, I thought I was the only one that this happened to!

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Old 05-18-2010, 3:22 PM
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If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences

Last edited by Noah3683; 05-18-2010 at 3:25 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:24 PM
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If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag/s&w for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences
You forgot KAC and Sabre
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:48 PM
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If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences
I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:52 PM
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I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.
While that is as true as it can get, I would rather have both. All the training wont do jack if you have a vital issue and no backup. I have seen nothing from stag that would put me in a situation where I wouldn't trust my life to it. Now would I take it to war? probably not. I believe it is more than capable, but would rather take my chances with a rifle that is tried and true with better qc.
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Old 05-18-2010, 3:55 PM
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You forgot KAC and Sabre
I was making a roundabout statement, but yes sabre and kac as well. although Sabre would fall as the last of my choices on that list. Great barrels, but it's starting to appear that they are letting quality slide a hair
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:01 PM
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Let's just say this -- I am not the type of guy who grows a ton of facial hair. But I ran a drill with a KAC upper, and suddenly a full, dense set of five o'clock shadow suddenly popped out on my face, like Homer Simpson after a shave. You'd be surprised at what might happen when you roll with KAC.
But would that dense 5 o'clock be made of Kevlar?
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:02 PM
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But would that dense 5 o'clock be made of Kevlar?
It makes you grow chuck norris hair.
Everyone knows that chuck norris hair is bulletproof...
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:06 PM
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If you want relentless reliability and top notch workmanship, just bite the bullet and get the best there is, Del-Ton.
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:10 PM
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If you want a combat rifle..... Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense. If you want a prom queen, get a noveske. No CMMG is not apples to apples with any of them. they are just above stag for quality. I wouldn't be against owning one, but there are better options for negligible $ differences
We are going to have to agree to disagree on CMMG. They have NEVER let me down, and the specs are right on par with BCM. Where as BCM has dropped the ball on me several times and I have been disappointed with what I received. Specs wise, they are great. Service and fallow through, they lose points with me - based on my own personal experiences. I am not knocking them. They have had a huge boom in demand and are doing their best to keep up. But they lose a lot of points in my book for that. If you have had better luck, and they earned you loyalty...then great, good for you. I was not so lucky. that said, I still carry a couple of their products in my store. They make great stuff.

I am not sure where you guys are getting the idea that they do a better job building or testing their stuff. My experience has been the exact opposite. On paper maybe...but in actual fact...I just haven't seen it. Again, maybe I just had a string of bad luck with them. But I was treated like a number when I had a problem - and nothing ticks me off more than attitude from somebody when they screw up. Screwing up is fine, so long as you fix it and don't give me a tude about it. CMMG has always gone WAY out of their way when issues come up to get it fixed, and always with a great attitude. They make me as a dealer, look good. Last thing I want to do is argue with a manufacturer or supplier about fixing a problem for my customer, especially when they are clearly to blame. BCM eventually fixed the few issues that came up, but it was no wear near as hassle free as getting CMMG to solve problems.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 05-19-2010 at 2:17 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Omega13device View Post
I realize this is probably a futile argument to make on calguns but gear is the wrong thing to be focused on. As they say, "it's the singer not the song". I would rather have a Stag, some good training and mastery of the fundamentals than a Colt and no training.
+1 on the importance of training. Sacramento natives and those close by might want to check out Stone Cobra Tatical for some great training that won't break the bank.
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Old 05-18-2010, 4:18 PM
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While that is as true as it can get, I would rather have both.
You think you get what I'm saying, but you don't.
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