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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-12-2010, 8:40 AM
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Default DROS Delay by DOJ - Looking for advice

Ok, so 14 years ago, I suffered a lapse of good jugement and incurred a misdemeanor battery charge under CA 242PC. Sparing the details, I paid my pound of flesh to society and got on with my life. Never, have I previously before or after had any blemish on record. I am a college educated professional and have given many years of public service to the community. I am now self-employed.

Last year, I went back to court and had my record expunged and the judge stated my firearms ownership rights were restored. (I was never previously advised by the court they were revoked).

14 years later I decide to purchase a 1911 .45. I went to pick it up yesterday after the 10 day wait, and the FFL informed me the DOJ placed a hold on the paperwork. I called DOJ and they stated they have requested the court docs to determine ownership eligibility.

FFL states that if denied, I will have to surrender all firearms owned by me. Does that include wifey's? Is this for real?

Q: What are my chances with DOJ and should I prepare for the worst?

Last edited by Seahawk; 05-12-2010 at 10:42 AM..
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seahawk View Post
FFL informed me the DOJ placed a hold on the paperwork. I called DOJ and they stated they have requested the court docs to determine ownership eligibility.
I have had this situation happen (different circumstances and charge, but same process), and it's pretty simple... well kinda. The DOJ will request the docs and if the conviction has been expunged and they granted your rights to have firearms you are golden. This may take a while, but depending on the DOJ person and the courts it shouldn't take too long. ((mine took like a week or two I wana say))


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Originally Posted by Seahawk View Post
FFL states that if denied, I will have to surrender all firearms owned by me. Does that include wifey's? Is this for real?
Sit and rotate is what I would tell the FFL. If for whatever reason you aren't allowed to have firearms, the wife can still have then you just won't be able to have "access" to them (ie if they're in a safe you can't know the combo)

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Originally Posted by Seahawk View Post
Q: What are my chances with DOJ and should I prepare for the worst?
If everything is as you stated it, I wouldn't really worry about it, you should be fine.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:05 AM
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Everything is as stated. Thanks for the insight.
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Last edited by Seahawk; 05-12-2010 at 10:28 AM.. Reason: text
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt_Communist View Post

Sit and rotate is what I would tell the FFL. If for whatever reason you aren't allowed to have firearms, the wife can still have then you just won't be able to have "access" to them (ie if they're in a safe you can't know the combo)

You can tell the FFL anything you want, I suppose, but he is required to provide this packet to those buyers who are denied: Prohibited Persons Notice Form and Power of Attorney for Firearms Relinquishment, Sale or Disposal (Penal Code Section 12021, subd. (d)(2))

.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:55 PM
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Thank you, Halifax. I guess I will have to see how it plays out with DOJ. Telling the FFL to sit and twirl is not an option. I'll put that in my list of want's but dont's.
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Old 05-12-2010, 1:01 PM
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If the judge said firearm ownership rights restored than your firearm ownership rights are restored. CA DOJ is going to check court records and make sure before issuing their approval. Congrats on the 1911-
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Old 05-12-2010, 1:04 PM
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I just ran through this with a friend of mine. The golden ticket is a document in your docket that will say something along the lines of "P.C. 1203.4 granted." That's your expungement. Likely DOJ just doesn't have the expungement in their system. What needs to happen is the DOJ needs to figure out which court everything went through and call them and have them go out to the back 40 and pull out your file and fax the whole thing to them. They need to find the "1203.4 granted" part and update their system with it, then your DROS will be approved and you can go pick up the gun.

It may be possible that they don't find this in your file. If this is the case, I'd suggest you go down to the court and have them give you a photocopy of your whole file. They'll want a few bucks for this. Go home and go through it all and see if you can find the expungement. If it's there, great, get a certified copy of that piece of paper from the same court (this may run like $25, still all it is is a photocopy but this time the extra $25 also gets it an extra rubber stamp) and fax it to the DOJ, they'll verify it by calling that court up again and making them go find that document. If for some reason that document isn't actually in your file, I'd imagine you'd probably have to go back to a judge and re-do the expungement, and get copies of it, and send that to the DOJ.

It wouldn't hurt to make a very nice, polite call to the DOJ about once or twice a week to check on how it's going. In the end, you'll be alright and you'll be able to get the gun. Don't worry about it too much.
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Old 05-12-2010, 1:14 PM
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Thanks much for the responses. I'm a bit edgey about this as it will be my first Dan Wesson Commander and I WANT IT!!!
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Old 05-12-2010, 5:04 PM
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This may be personal, if it is I understand.

Question #1. Was the "victim" a male or female?If it was a female, they may be looking for evidence of a domestic relationship per the federal lautenberg amendment. Before I get flamed by people saying pc242 is not domestic violence, read this http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?...tates_v._Hayes.

The SCOTUS ruled that it does not matter what the state calls a conviction or charge, the relationship is the qualifier. Get ready for another round of denials and witch hunts of LEOs and GIs who slipped through some cracks, due to a plea and a DV being called a reg misdemeanor battery, to lessen the stigma, or a state not even having a charge of DV but only battery.

Question #2. Is there an old restraining order still hanging around? I saw an issue where the restraining order was lifted, but an old copy from 1997 was still in the guys file at the court house.
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Old 05-12-2010, 5:14 PM
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1203.4 has zero bearing on this particular matter and does not restore the ability to own/possess firearms in California.

What PROBABLY happened is the BCI/CII record shows the charge, and maybe some court action, but no disposition (conviction, dismissal, etc.). It may not even show the level of the offense.

The 242 is listed in PC 12021(c), which leads to a 10 year possession ban upon conviction. 14 years later it should be a non-issue, but CalDOJ likely has an incomplete record of disposition and needs to make sure the 10 years has passed. It could also be that the FBI record is not updated with a disposition. Since CalDOJ also conducts a NICS check, this may be the cause of the delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierratangofoxtrotunion View Post
I just ran through this with a friend of mine. The golden ticket is a document in your docket that will say something along the lines of "P.C. 1203.4 granted." That's your expungement. Likely DOJ just doesn't have the expungement in their system. What needs to happen is the DOJ needs to figure out which court everything went through and call them and have them go out to the back 40 and pull out your file and fax the whole thing to them. They need to find the "1203.4 granted" part and update their system with it, then your DROS will be approved and you can go pick up the gun.

It may be possible that they don't find this in your file. If this is the case, I'd suggest you go down to the court and have them give you a photocopy of your whole file. They'll want a few bucks for this. Go home and go through it all and see if you can find the expungement. If it's there, great, get a certified copy of that piece of paper from the same court (this may run like $25, still all it is is a photocopy but this time the extra $25 also gets it an extra rubber stamp) and fax it to the DOJ, they'll verify it by calling that court up again and making them go find that document. If for some reason that document isn't actually in your file, I'd imagine you'd probably have to go back to a judge and re-do the expungement, and get copies of it, and send that to the DOJ.

It wouldn't hurt to make a very nice, polite call to the DOJ about once or twice a week to check on how it's going. In the end, you'll be alright and you'll be able to get the gun. Don't worry about it too much.
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Old 05-12-2010, 9:20 PM
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There is a possibility that has not yet been mentioned.

Does anybody think there might possibly be some slothful, or dishonest court
employee here in California? I have it on really good word from one of our
firearms attorneys here in the OC that certain courthouses, in their haste to
implement "modernization" have simply destroyed millions of pages of files
recently. Sure, they were all _supposed_ to be digitized first.

But who would be looking for a 14 year old slip of paper with a few magic
words on it? Can't we save a few minutes and just toss this crap into
the shredder?

During the digitization process, files are vanishing. Crimes committed,
tried, and convicted in the past are simply evaporating. So are official
discharges and the like.

Good luck.
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Old 05-12-2010, 9:31 PM
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1203.4 does not restore gun rights. That's 17b.
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Old 05-12-2010, 9:39 PM
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hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by command_liner View Post
There is a possibility that has not yet been mentioned.

Does anybody think there might possibly be some slothful, or dishonest court
employee here in California? I have it on really good word from one of our
firearms attorneys here in the OC that certain courthouses, in their haste to
implement "modernization" have simply destroyed millions of pages of files
recently. Sure, they were all _supposed_ to be digitized first.

But who would be looking for a 14 year old slip of paper with a few magic
words on it? Can't we save a few minutes and just toss this crap into
the shredder?

During the digitization process, files are vanishing. Crimes committed,
tried, and convicted in the past are simply evaporating. So are official
discharges and the like.

Good luck.
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Old 05-12-2010, 9:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
1203.4 does not restore gun rights. That's 17b.
A 17b allows a wobbler charge to be lowered from a Felony into Misdemeanor. As already mentioned, the 242 was a Misdemeanor, but it is specifically listed under 12021 as requiring a 10 year period between conviction and ownership.

Quote:
(c) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (a) or paragraph (2) of
this subdivision, any person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor
violation of Section 71, 76, 136.1, 136.5, or 140, subdivision (d) of
Section 148, Section 171b, 171c, 171d, 186.28, 240, 241, 242 ... and who, within 10
years of the conviction, owns, purchases, receives, or has in his or
her possession or under his or her custody or control, any firearm
is guilty of a public offense, which shall be punishable by
imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state
prison, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine.
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Old 05-12-2010, 9:51 PM
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i had a section 242 conviction in '95, myself.
i'll have to come back when my pfec comes through but (expungement) aside, 10 years has elapsed.
i'm expunging a different rap right now and i read in more places than one that expunging a case has no bearing on probation.
i've got a certified copy of this other court docket that has got a stipulation that so long as it's for work then guns are a go, so maybe doj has got to requisition that paperwork like you said is happening with your section 242 (pc) case because it's a fine line that the judge drew in this case.
i'm not expecting a miracle, gun- or probation-wise by expunging it.
thanks for bringing-up the doj-court docket requisition issue; i will be ready now in case there's a mixup.
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Old 05-13-2010, 1:09 AM
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I don't think there is a way to automatically record all expungements with DOJ and knowing the state they would assume it is just one more penalty for you to pay and they are not going to make work for themselves if they don't have to. Especially if they can't collect money for it by law. You have already heard some good advice about what you can do with the court records if it comes to that and copying the file. Have a little patience and once you get the first one through the system it will be as easy for you as it is for anyone. Good luck and if your wife does not have her gun card have her go get it.
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Old 05-13-2010, 3:41 AM
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Huh, I thought firearms restriction was only for a felony.
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Old 05-13-2010, 6:05 AM
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Thanks for all the input. I guess it all comes down to DOJ's efforts and interpretations. I am prepared to do my homework. Going to records today. I'll let you all know what happens with another post in the near future.
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Old 05-13-2010, 7:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77bawls View Post
Huh, I thought firearms restriction was only for a felony.


You need to catch-up: Here is the short list. More being added all the time.
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Old 05-13-2010, 9:19 AM
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so possession of armor piercing ammo is a misdemeanor. i thought it was legal.
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Old 05-13-2010, 9:24 AM
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Depends on the type of ammo. AP handgun ammo = illegal. AP rifle ammo = legal.

PC12320:

12320. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state
knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to
penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense and upon
conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison, or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or
by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both
such fine and imprisonment.

The kicker, of course, comes in determining what counts as "handgun" ammo.

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so possession of armor piercing ammo is a misdemeanor. i thought it was legal.
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Old 05-13-2010, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierratangofoxtrotunion View Post
I just ran through this with a friend of mine. The golden ticket is a document in your docket that will say something along the lines of "P.C. 1203.4 granted." That's your expungement. Likely DOJ just doesn't have the expungement in their system. What needs to happen is the DOJ needs to figure out which court everything went through and call them and have them go out to the back 40 and pull out your file and fax the whole thing to them. They need to find the "1203.4 granted" part and update their system with it, then your DROS will be approved and you can go pick up the gun.

It may be possible that they don't find this in your file. If this is the case, I'd suggest you go down to the court and have them give you a photocopy of your whole file. They'll want a few bucks for this. Go home and go through it all and see if you can find the expungement. If it's there, great, get a certified copy of that piece of paper from the same court (this may run like $25, still all it is is a photocopy but this time the extra $25 also gets it an extra rubber stamp) and fax it to the DOJ, they'll verify it by calling that court up again and making them go find that document. If for some reason that document isn't actually in your file, I'd imagine you'd probably have to go back to a judge and re-do the expungement, and get copies of it, and send that to the DOJ.

It wouldn't hurt to make a very nice, polite call to the DOJ about once or twice a week to check on how it's going. In the end, you'll be alright and you'll be able to get the gun. Don't worry about it too much.
This is the correct stament above, also if the 1203.4 is granted it takes a little bit of time to work its way in the courts. Also time on youre side helps ten years after the the sentencing date. A friend of mine just had this same thing happen to him. After a few hoops he was good to go...
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:15 AM
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i would go to the court and get copy's of the records just in case,and don't let the ffl manipulate you into selling your guns prematurely or cheaply,your loss would be his gain so just wait and post a out come later.

and no i am not ffl bashing,just i have seen it happen when people get nervous.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:33 PM
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Except presence or absence of a granted 1203.4 on record has nothing at all to do with the ability to own/possess firearms in California.

I swear, it's like a runaway FUD train today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmasold View Post
This is the correct stament above, also if the 1203.4 is granted it takes a little bit of time to work its way in the courts. Also time on youre side helps ten years after the the sentencing date. A friend of mine just had this same thing happen to him. After a few hoops he was good to go...
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