Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-24-2010, 2:49 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default The better way to mount dual optics?

Some people mount a scope and a red dot sight on the same rifle so they can hit both long and short range shots.

http://madtrigger.net/madtrigger/ind...d=25&Itemid=25

Some people mount their red dot sight RIGHT ON TOP of their scopes.

http://www.lbcstudios.com/2010/03/everything-fde.html

My question is, do both these setups function the same? What are the pros and cons of each?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-24-2010, 2:53 PM
ChrisTKHarris's Avatar
ChrisTKHarris ChrisTKHarris is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,205
iTrader: 35 / 97%
Default

Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
__________________
Don't let the name fool you...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-24-2010, 2:56 PM
UserM4's Avatar
UserM4 UserM4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,687
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

There's a lot of different ways to mount a red dot along with a magnified optic. Here's a couple more.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...tail.bok?no=39



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=s...product_id=113



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=202&parents=69,162



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...ail.bok?no=383

Last edited by UserM4; 04-24-2010 at 3:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-24-2010, 2:56 PM
2Cute2Shoot's Avatar
2Cute2Shoot 2Cute2Shoot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,038
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTKHarris View Post
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
That looks like two turtles humping . There has got to be a better way!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:03 PM
ChrisTKHarris's Avatar
ChrisTKHarris ChrisTKHarris is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,205
iTrader: 35 / 97%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
That looks like two turtles humping . There has got to be a better way!
okay
__________________
Don't let the name fool you...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:19 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Thanks for the photos guys, really appreciate them.

BUT, I am really asking about the pros and cons of mounting the red dot on top of the scope VS. mounting the red dot offset at the 1 o'clock direction.

Does anybody have any EXPERIENCE with either of these setups as to be able to share some user feedback?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:23 PM
Cobrafreak's Avatar
Cobrafreak Cobrafreak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Carmichael CA
Posts: 1,335
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

I wouldn't want the red dot on top unless it didn't significantly cause the weapon to be any taller. A taller target is an easier target.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:27 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobrafreak View Post
I wouldn't want the red dot on top unless it didn't significantly cause the weapon to be any taller. A taller target is an easier target.
Okay, so that's one negative for mounting the two on top of each other, a bigger headshot target.

Would both setups be just as quick and accurate though?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:27 PM
Wolfhound9k's Avatar
Wolfhound9k Wolfhound9k is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 211
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

I haven't personally run this type of setup before because I don't shoot 3-gun competitions, but right off the bat you can tell that mounting the red dot on top of the scope will result in a greater sight over bore height to have to compensate for.
__________________
.

"With courage you will dare to take risks, have the strength to be compassionate and the wisdom to be humble. Courage is the foundation of integrity."
Keshavan Nair
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:31 PM
Cobrafreak's Avatar
Cobrafreak Cobrafreak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Carmichael CA
Posts: 1,335
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Another thing. If you mount the dot or laser on top and you knock your rig into a tree, rock, or drop it, both your aiming devices are going to be off in one blow. This would suck.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:32 PM
$P-Ritch$'s Avatar
$P-Ritch$ $P-Ritch$ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Palo Alto
Posts: 1,267
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

The only plus I've ever heard of having on off-set red dot as opposed to a top-mounted red dot is that you are able to maintain a consistent cheek weld. With a top-mounted dot you have to raise your head slightly from the stock to look through it. For the 1 o'clock mount you just rotate the rifle slightly to the left, but your head position remains the same.
__________________
RLTW

WTB: AMD 65 parts kit with original barrel

Interested in a Front Sight Diamond membership? PM me.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:40 PM
UserM4's Avatar
UserM4 UserM4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,687
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I think that if you're pulling the trigger at long range, your spotter should handle close range.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-24-2010, 3:42 PM
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 9,143
iTrader: 59 / 100%
Default

I would NOT do a red dot mounted on top of a scope. I have had built in irons on top of an old ACOG and currently have one built in on my Elcan. It is just awkward way of shooting, requires changing your position. It is much easier IMO to have it off set. The only change you have to make is canting your rifle a small amount. I personally really don't like it, but my friend in Afghanistan has an ACOG with the red dot on top and loves it, then again he isn't much of a gun person. I thought of doing an off set scope but in the end I decided it was just unnecessary weight and my optic is fine on 1x with both eyes open. I still like the idea of the JP style off set irons but again, seems like useless extra weight.

Red dot on top
Pros: Won't snag, won't take up rail space on handguard
Cons: Awkward, lose check weld to aim through

Red dot offset
Pros: No lose of cheek weld, just cant rifle to use, can be mounted anywhere on a rail
Cons: Can snag or make shooting around barriers difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-24-2010, 4:29 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
I would NOT do a red dot mounted on top of a scope. I have had built in irons on top of an old ACOG and currently have one built in on my Elcan. It is just awkward way of shooting, requires changing your position. It is much easier IMO to have it off set. The only change you have to make is canting your rifle a small amount. I personally really don't like it, but my friend in Afghanistan has an ACOG with the red dot on top and loves it, then again he isn't much of a gun person. I thought of doing an off set scope but in the end I decided it was just unnecessary weight and my optic is fine on 1x with both eyes open. I still like the idea of the JP style off set irons but again, seems like useless extra weight.

Red dot on top
Pros: Won't snag, won't take up rail space on handguard
Cons: Awkward, lose check weld to aim through

Red dot offset
Pros: No lose of cheek weld, just cant rifle to use, can be mounted anywhere on a rail
Cons: Can snag or make shooting around barriers difficult.
So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-24-2010, 4:40 PM
Jwood562 Jwood562 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,271
iTrader: 68 / 99%
Default

I do not think a con of a top mount red dot is that you expose more of your head for an enemy kill shot. Think about it a red dot is a cqb optic so you are already within a few yards so it is already shtf.

The con is you lose your cheekweld fir stability, that is all.

Pros are that no rail space is taken. They can be very tall is you use the aimpoint on top of the acog like shown above but the acog with a doctor optic is fantastic.

Now for offset mount.
I think the pros are better cheekweld and a little faster aquistion on target, but both depend on how you train.

I also think that a lot of offset mounts are made because there is no way to mount a red dot on top of their primary optic so offset mounts are created out of necessity for a red dot
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-24-2010, 5:07 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Interesting, what do most three gunners use?

And why does the military not go with the dual optic setup?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-24-2010, 5:10 PM
GM_77 GM_77 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: California
Posts: 594
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?
Maybe because it makes the rifle heavier and you really need one or the other most of the time so you ditch the one you don't need.

I see a lot of three gunners cant the optic to the side so they tilt the gun to shoot up close.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-24-2010, 6:09 PM
dieselpower dieselpower is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,471
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Thats a REPLICA fake Chi-com knock-off plastic C-more. A Plastic C-more would be a NO-GO on a tactical firearm...but the chi-com airsoft one is even more of a no-go...my god what is this guy thinking....
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-24-2010, 6:28 PM
slappomatt slappomatt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego Ca
Posts: 668
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
Interesting, what do most three gunners use?

And why does the military not go with the dual optic setup?
I personally don't get it. if you are close enough to your threat that a 4X acog wont work than you wont have time to readjust your cheek weld to a chin weld and try and balance your gun to get the red dot on target. The offset ones would be the only viable option but its more weight that most people want to carry around and its alot of money there. the acog and T1 cost more than the whole rifle. probably close to double the rifle cost.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-24-2010, 7:10 PM
UserM4's Avatar
UserM4 UserM4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,687
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

If you want a magnified optic and a red dot, a popular way to go is an Aimpoint or Eotech with a 3x or 4x magnifier on a pivot mount.
__________________
While we're here arguing about the latest high tech running shoes, there's some Kenyan out there running barefoot. Guess who's gonna win the marathon?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-24-2010, 7:11 PM
416stroker's Avatar
416stroker 416stroker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 742
iTrader: 10 / 92%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTKHarris View Post
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
I like this.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-24-2010, 7:40 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
Thats a REPLICA fake Chi-com knock-off plastic C-more. A Plastic C-more would be a NO-GO on a tactical firearm...but the chi-com airsoft one is even more of a no-go...my god what is this guy thinking....
What are you talking about?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-24-2010, 8:28 PM
dieselpower dieselpower is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 11,471
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
What are you talking about?
The first picture in the OP. The red dot optic mounted on the side is a replica C-more, not a true one. The power knob is wrong. Even a true C-more needs to be an aluminum one not a plastic one to be rugged enough for a duty firearm. I guess its ok for a range plinker bench work firearm. Then again, I see no reason to mount a RDS on a bench rifle.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-24-2010, 8:36 PM
dchang0's Avatar
dchang0 dchang0 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,772
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slappomatt View Post
I personally don't get it. if you are close enough to your threat that a 4X acog wont work than you wont have time to readjust your cheek weld to a chin weld and try and balance your gun to get the red dot on target. The offset ones would be the only viable option but its more weight that most people want to carry around and its alot of money there. the acog and T1 cost more than the whole rifle. probably close to double the rifle cost.
In 3-gun, the shooter would run most of a stage with the red dot without having to adjust cheekweld or cant. The long-range shots are usually taken at the end of the stage or at the beginning. Rarely do they set it up where a shooter is forced to switch back and forth, though there have been some particularly nasty stages where exactly that is required.

A fixed magnification ACOG does slow down the shooter for the close-range shots, which are usually the bulk of the stage. One has to practice a lot with BAC-capable ACOGs to get as fast on them as with a red dot at close range.

Trust me, I know. I run a fixed 3X ACOG for 3-gun and tactical classes. And it definitely slows me down on the close-range stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-24-2010, 8:47 PM
Juice5610's Avatar
Juice5610 Juice5610 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: 626
Posts: 1,559
iTrader: 17 / 95%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTKHarris View Post
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
You my good man win at the internet
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-25-2010, 12:43 AM
pacrimguru's Avatar
pacrimguru pacrimguru is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,595
iTrader: 192 / 100%
Default

this is my set up. i found out about this mount from fellow calgunner jicko. it's a matt burkett mount for jpoint and docter sights. what's good about this mount is that unlike the other ones out there, this one mounts the sight correctly directly over the bore. no offset issues at all. cheek weld is easy to obtain just by angling the rifle for a slight cant. there's more about this mount in a thread in the optics forum.

for my use, i don't see the value of adding something as heavy as a T-1 on a primarily magnified scope rifle. the smaller and ultra light jpoint / docter sights add a "just in case" red dot feature to your rifle without adding much weight to an already (relatively) heavy build.

sight mounts that place a red dot on top of another optic can be awkward to use. they eliminate any kind of cheek weld and force the shooter to adapt something like a chin weld or no weld at all.





Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-25-2010, 9:58 AM
Plisk's Avatar
Plisk Plisk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,007
iTrader: 33 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Cute2Shoot View Post
That looks like two turtles humping . There has got to be a better way!


What's better than turtles humping?
__________________
"If it wears out, replace it. If it breaks, upgrade." -Cranky Air Force Vet.

Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-25-2010, 10:36 AM
dlkk dlkk is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 180
iTrader: 39 / 100%
Default

http://www.warnescopemounts.com/ramp_mount.html

Just saw this the other night
__________________
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-25-2010, 12:15 PM
Jeffy Jeffy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 460
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davy View Post
So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?
Having two optics isn't as fast as just having one for the proper roll. In the military you are not alone don't have to carry the burden of having one rifle for all rolls. I have seen some pictures of TA31DOC's in the field but they are not common. With an ACOG with BAC, you should be able to use it as a 1x with some practice. It's not going to be as fast as a true 1x but then a 1x isn't going to have 4x either. Well, unless you go with something like a Elcan Spectre.

Also, keep in mind that for 3-gun, you have an idea of what ranges you'll be shooting at before hand. If you're shooting in the real world, you don't want to have to slow your reaction time, thinking about which optic to use. For a scoped rifle with more then 4x and no BAC, it's quicker to use a back-up optic then to have to remove the scope to flip up the irons to get back into the game.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-25-2010, 1:46 PM
2Cute2Shoot's Avatar
2Cute2Shoot 2Cute2Shoot is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,038
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plisk View Post


What's better than turtles humping?
That's a whole-nother thread
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-25-2010, 4:14 PM
davy davy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 338
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacrimguru View Post
this is my set up. i found out about this mount from fellow calgunner jicko. it's a matt burkett mount for jpoint and docter sights. what's good about this mount is that unlike the other ones out there, this one mounts the sight correctly directly over the bore. no offset issues at all. cheek weld is easy to obtain just by angling the rifle for a slight cant. there's more about this mount in a thread in the optics forum.

for my use, i don't see the value of adding something as heavy as a T-1 on a primarily magnified scope rifle. the smaller and ultra light jpoint / docter sights add a "just in case" red dot feature to your rifle without adding much weight to an already (relatively) heavy build.

sight mounts that place a red dot on top of another optic can be awkward to use. they eliminate any kind of cheek weld and force the shooter to adapt something like a chin weld or no weld at all.





That is a nice mount. I be it would be even sweeter (lighter) with an ACOG. How much does the mount weigh?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-25-2010, 6:20 PM
ChrisTKHarris's Avatar
ChrisTKHarris ChrisTKHarris is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,205
iTrader: 35 / 97%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 416stroker View Post
I like this.
Yeah it's pretty simple and keeps everything vertical which I think looks better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice5610 View Post
You my good man win at the internet
__________________
Don't let the name fool you...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-25-2010, 6:22 PM
anniepoks's Avatar
anniepoks anniepoks is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: @CAKPAMEHTO•
Posts: 3,267
iTrader: 128 / 100%
Default

[/QUOTE]

i like this best, simple.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Boy, you just aren't too bright are you?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-25-2010, 9:57 PM
L4D's Avatar
L4D L4D is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,032
iTrader: 144 / 100%
Default

Does the Larue offset mount for the T-1 only come in combo with a T-1?
__________________
RIP iTrader: Feedback Profile for L4D
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:41 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy