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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-19-2010, 3:11 PM
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Default Richard Clarke - Pro-2A people equal domestic terrorists?

I was listening to a show on NPR today that had Richard Clarke being interviewed. (Clarke was the Bush Jr.'s counter-terrorism expert).

At the end of the show, the interviewer mentioned the big pro-2A gun rally in Virginia today (with many of the attendees apparently exercising their UOC rights). Although she mentioned that today is the anniversary of the start of the Revolutionary War, she focused on this rally taking place on the same day as the Oklahoma City bombing anniversary. She asked Clarke if this was ominous, and he then launched into a semi-tirade on how people who are vocal about their 2A/RKBA rights are basically fanatics who will eventually lead to another Oklahoma City-type bombing.

For someone well-versed in American government, and who is not dependent on sheeple to stay in his job, I was severely disappointed how misguided this guy is. It's a shame because the rest of the interview was quite fascinating (talked about North Korea's cyber probes on our networks as well as Israel knocking out Syria's networks before they hit the nuclear plant a year or so ago).

http://public.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/n...fa_01.mp3?dl=1 (begins about 41:00 into the interview). You can also listen to the interview stream (rather than downloading it) here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126097038
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:21 PM
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I like Richard Clarke a lot, principally his foresight concerning Bin Laden and the Bush administration's record prior to 9/11, but he's way off base on this one.
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:40 PM
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To me, Clark is has-been. I don't care what he has to say.
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:45 PM
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What time is it talked about? Dont have time to listen to whole thing.

EDIT: Wow, what a tool. A demonstration about RKBA = Hamas, Hezbollah, et all?
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Legasat View Post
To me, Clark is has-been. I don't care what he has to say.
Well, unfortunately he isn't to the thousands of people who will buy his book and listen to his interviews.

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Originally Posted by Werewolf1021 View Post
What time is it talked about? Dont have time to listen to whole thing.
Beginning about 41 minutes into the interview.
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:49 PM
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Default "remnants of the KKK!"

";remnants of the John Birch Society!"

"There will be another Oklahoma City."

Wow, he sure lumped us together.
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Old 04-19-2010, 3:56 PM
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... he then launched into a semi-tirade on how people who are vocal about their 2A/RKBA rights are basically fanatics who will eventually lead to another Oklahoma City-type bombing.
I think that this is a fairly poor representation of what's in the interview (yes, I listened to it). What he said sounded completely reasonable to me and didn't specifically reference the DC rally today (the interviewer did, but it really sounded like he had no idea about them). What he was referencing were right wing nut jobs like the Hutaree Militia etc. I encourage people to listen for themselves though, because the cyber terrorism stuff is pretty interesting.
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Old 04-19-2010, 4:03 PM
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I think that this is a fairly poor representation of what's in the interview (yes, I listened to it). What he said sounded completely reasonable to me and didn't specifically reference the DC rally today (the interviewer did, but it really sounded like he had no idea about them). What he was referencing were right wing nut jobs like the Hutaree Militia etc. I encourage people to listen for themselves though, because the cyber terrorism stuff is pretty interesting.
"What do you think of a pro-gun march being held on the anniversary of the Oklahoma city bombing?"

"Well, Terry, I think it is deeply disturbing."

He made the allusion to the marchers to the KKK et all.

And even if he didnt intend to do that, most people who hear the radio interview once will probably come off with that impression. Poor choice of words.
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Old 04-19-2010, 4:09 PM
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Maybe we should all be more attuned to an effort to change who and what terrorist is, and means, as a slow method of changing minds, and re-educating the masses. This is not the first time we have heard this from those in government, and Federal law enforcement. In fact it seems to be popping up with some regularity.
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Old 04-19-2010, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by M198 View Post
I think that this is a fairly poor representation of what's in the interview (yes, I listened to it). What he said sounded completely reasonable to me and didn't specifically reference the DC rally today (the interviewer did, but it really sounded like he had no idea about them). What he was referencing were right wing nut jobs like the Hutaree Militia etc. I encourage people to listen for themselves though, because the cyber terrorism stuff is pretty interesting.
I listened to it again. My issue was that the interviewer talked about the gun rights rally, and then Clarke launched into his proclamation that right-wing extremists are a serious threat. You are right...he doesn't ever reference the rally himself other than the implication of "these people." I wonder if this was a full conversation or it was edited to suit the interviewer's personal biases (she's always struck me as liberal, but I've never heard her be outright anti-2A).
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Old 04-19-2010, 4:20 PM
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"What do you think of a pro-gun march being held on the anniversary of the Oklahoma city bombing?"

"Well, Terry, I think it is deeply disturbing. On one hand, most of us who own guns, Millions of Americans do, most of who own guns are perfectly normal human beings who have those guns for legitimate reasons. But there is a small percentage of people who own guns that I find very scary, and they are the ideological remnants of the KKK...The ideological remnants of the John Birch society. Throughout our history we've had right wing people who say they don't like the US Government, they want to take down the US government. The think violence against the US government is OK."
Fixed that for you. Seems to me he's talking about "a small percentage of people" like the Hutaree militia who advocate violence. To each their own I guess.
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Old 04-19-2010, 4:30 PM
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Fixed that for you. Seems to me he's talking about "a small percentage of people" like the Hutaree militia who advocate violence. To each their own I guess.
You didnt read the rest of my post.
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Old 04-19-2010, 5:09 PM
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To me, Clark is has-been. I don't care what he has to say.
Dosn't mean that he isn't a good source of information.
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Old 04-19-2010, 9:07 PM
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Clarke is a guy out of power who is trying to peddle books. He was able to wash his sheets pretty well post 9/11, but he bore more than a small amount of responsibility for some of the more gross failures. Os should have.

That aside, comments that even so much as intimate that gun owners who are vocal about infringement on their rights as citizens are some kind or another of terrorist is nothing more than propaganda for the leftist mill.

NPR... hello??? What audience do they speak to, paid for by your tax dollars I might add.
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Old 04-19-2010, 9:29 PM
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Dosn't mean that he isn't a good source of information.
And even a better source of "opinion". And you know what opinions are like...

His days are long over. He might be useful as an insider for history, but not what is happening today. His plug got pulled 7 years ago. He no longer "in the loop".
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Old 04-19-2010, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
"What do you think of a pro-gun march being held on the anniversary of the Oklahoma city bombing?"

"Well, Terry, I think it is deeply disturbing. On one hand, most of us who own guns, Millions of Americans do, most of who own guns are perfectly normal human beings who have those guns for legitimate reasons. But there is a small percentage of people who own guns that I find very scary, and they are the ideological remnants of the KKK...The ideological remnants of the John Birch society. Throughout our history we've had right wing people who say they don't like the US Government, they want to take down the US government. They think violence against the US government is OK."
Am I missing something? His actual words not taken out of context seem accurate to me.
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Old 04-19-2010, 9:54 PM
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I'll never forget the way Clarke timed his testimony before the 9/11 Commission to coincide with the release of his Bush-bashing book, Against All Enemies.

At the time, I had never witnessed a more shameless act of political cynicism. I wouldn't trust that man any farther than I could throw him.
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Old 04-20-2010, 7:24 AM
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He knows there will be another Oklahoma City because THEY will do it and blame it on gunowners. OKC was a done by the FEDs to demonize gunowners and grab control.

It is the oldest trick in the book.
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Old 04-20-2010, 7:28 AM
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He knows there will be another Oklahoma City because THEY will do it and blame it on gunowners. OKC was a done by the FEDs to demonize gunowners and grab control.

It is the oldest trick in the book.
Oh brother..
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Old 04-20-2010, 7:57 AM
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You underestimate the level of evil that exists in those that are in control. Google Operation Northwoods, Operation Ajax, Reichstag fire, Phantoms in the Gulf of Tonkin, Guy Fawkes as a start.

It is called a False Flag Attack. You attack yourself dressed up as the enemy to provoke the populace to support a war you want to initiate. The sheep fall for it hook, line, and sinker.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
Although she mentioned that today is the anniversary of the start of the Revolutionary War, she focused on this rally taking place on the same day as the Oklahoma City bombing anniversary.
Unfortunately, the Oklahoma bombing anniversary will forever co-opt that date, and should probably be avoided for exactly that reason. Continuing to use it simply makes the movement look bad to everyone else. Exact same thing as the UOC meetings.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:55 AM
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You underestimate the level of evil that exists in those that are in control. Google Operation Northwoods, Operation Ajax, Reichstag fire, Phantoms in the Gulf of Tonkin, Guy Fawkes as a start.

It is called a False Flag Attack. You attack yourself dressed up as the enemy to provoke the populace to support a war you want to initiate. The sheep fall for it hook, line, and sinker.
::stepping away slowly while nodding politely::
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:11 AM
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"Seems to me he's talking about "a small percentage of people" like the Hutaree militia who advocate violence. To each their own I guess."

The Hutaree militia was a group of low IQ rednecks provoked to plan a make believe attack by a government agent. This is what is known as an agent provocateur. They infiltrate a group and THEY SUGGEST a crime. The dummies don't even know what hit them. It is a PR campaign for more Police State Laws.

Again. Not everything is what it seems. Don't be simple minded. The government agent begged and begged Randy Weaver to cut the shotgun barrel down below legal length. He gave in and the rest is history at Ruby Ridge.

Last edited by rc601962; 04-20-2010 at 11:22 AM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:15 AM
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Can somebody name for me all of the right-wing extremist terrorist attacks that have occurred in this country? I mean, there must be quite a few to have such concerns, right?
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rc601962 View Post
He knows there will be another Oklahoma City because THEY will do it and blame it on gunowners. OKC was a done by the FEDs to demonize gunowners and grab control.

It is the oldest trick in the book.
and people wonder why 'they' like to lump us all together as crazies who want to overthrow the government?
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:51 AM
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Can somebody name for me all of the right-wing extremist terrorist attacks that have occurred in this country? I mean, there must be quite a few to have such concerns, right?
let's see...

the attacks on abortion clinics.
the recent killing of an abortion doctor.
Recent death threats and vandalism against sitting congressthings because of how they voted.
Oaklahoma City
the holocaust museum shooting
the guy who just flew a plane into an IRS building

that's just off the top of my head so far. pretty much every single one has demonstrated some sort of extreme views at the conservative/libertarian end of the spectrum.

that's not to say there haven't been liberal acts of terrorism - but by and large these days liberals are too retarded to carry anything like that out. For the most part they'd rather be seen making a statement then actually make a statement.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:28 PM
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I do not want to overthrow the government. I would be happy to simply wake up the people. When you expose their tactics, they lose their power. Violence is dumb. It just plays into their hands.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinixstar View Post
let's see...
1. the attacks on abortion clinics.
2. the recent killing of an abortion doctor.
3. Recent death threats and vandalism against sitting congressthings because of how they voted.
4. Oaklahoma City
5. the holocaust museum shooting
6. the guy who just flew a plane into an IRS building.
I added the numbers above for ease of reference below.
1. Attacks on abortion clinics are definitely terrorist acts. I wonder why you attribute those to "right wing extremists" though, as usually these types are simply extremely anti-abortion, with no other particular political bent.
2. Granted ... score one.
3. The only verified threats - and shots fired - were against a conservative Republican ... no score there.
4. How was this a "right wing" act as opposed to someone simply anti-government?
5. The guy was a neo-NAZI ... you know National SOCIALIST? ... not "right wing" at all.
6. Joseph Stack's rambling manifesto was anti-capitalist, anti-business, pro communist, and anti-IRS ... how does that equate to "right wing"?
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rc601962 View Post
"Seems to me he's talking about "a small percentage of people" like the Hutaree militia who advocate violence. To each their own I guess."

The Hutaree militia was a group of low IQ rednecks provoked to plan a make believe attack by a government agent. This is what is known as an agent provocateur. They infiltrate a group and THEY SUGGEST a crime. The dummies don't even know what hit them. It is a PR campaign for more Police State Laws.

Again. Not everything is what it seems. Don't be simple minded. The government agent begged and begged Randy Weaver to cut the shotgun barrel down below legal length. He gave in and the rest is history at Ruby Ridge.
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Old 04-20-2010, 1:01 PM
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1) because just as the left gets the mantle of 'anti-gun' hung around it's neck - the "conservative right" will forever have the mantle of 'anti-abortion' around it's neck. Extremely anti-abortion tends to coincide with hardcore christian, which tends to coincide with hardcore conservative. When you can show me a fringe progressive liberal gun owner who's so steeped in Christian faith they actually took up guns and killed a doctor - let me know.


3) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040805476.html
I mean, let's be realistic - who do you really think is *that* angry about democratic policies right now? Liberals are so mad at themselves that they're doing this? Or perhaps this is all some big plot just to make the tea party look bad? I'll admit some of the coverage is a bit of a strech - but i don't see how any reasonable person cannot concede that the level of fervor on the right has hit what is quite possibly an all-time-high mark. It just so happens that the contents of all that high-pitched fervor mirror EXACTLY what all these people are talking about. So now either the extreme progressive liberals and the Tea party really secretly share the same beliefs... or....


4) I could concede the point, however if the shoe were on the other foot - and we were talking about liberals, i have no doubt the standard fare would be 'he's a liberal and he hates the government, how is that not a liberal attack on the government- ie Leftist terrorism'? same standard applies here. He was a hardcore righty. Registered republican early on, and self-identified libertarian later on. He also just happened to hate the government (but isn't that exactly what we're discussing here?)

5) You do realize that national socialism - and the 'socialism' everybody likes to paint liberals with are two VASTLY different things right? (in fact if you look at history the socialist party of Germany were the only ones to actually stand up and try to stop hitler's rise to power within the Reich, but hey - that's just ya know, recorded history)
I will however concede that this guy does probably fall much more in the 'general crazy' category though.

6) Where in the hell do you get anti-capitalist, anti-business, pro communist? If you read it he's talking about extremely strict free market capitalism : if the market dictates a company fails - it should fail with no interference from the government. That's a pretty conservative route to take... Anti-Business? Again, where exactly did you see that? Anti-IRS? sure. Anti-IRS in the same way the Taxed Enough Already party is Anti-IRS. Feeling intruded upon and bullied by a tax system that appears to be (by design) rigged to screw you, being run by politicians who are out for their own self-interest and the interest of the government. (god where on earth have I heard statements like this before?)

Did you bother to read his manifesto or did you just get the cliff notes? I admittedly breezed past some of the middle (it's more long winded than this post) - but how anyone in the world can read that and get Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Business, Pro-Communist out of it is absolutely beyond me.

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Old 04-20-2010, 1:09 PM
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3) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040805476.html
I mean, let's be realistic - who do you really think is *that* angry about democratic policies right now? Liberals are so mad at themselves that they're doing this? Or perhaps this is all some big plot just to make the tea party look bad? I'll admit some of the coverage is a bit of a strech - but i don't see how any reasonable person cannot concede that the level of fervor on the right has hit what is quite possibly an all-time-high mark. It just so happens that the contents of all that high-pitched fervor mirror EXACTLY what all these people are talking about. So now either the extreme progressive liberals and the Tea party really secretly share the same beliefs... or....
And didn't the secret service leak that death threats were up 400% against Obama back in the very beginning of this administration?
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Old 04-20-2010, 1:27 PM
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It's probably also worth posting this link.



Even if you don't like the source, you can use it as a jump off to do your own research.
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Old 04-20-2010, 3:20 PM
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::stepping away slowly while nodding politely::
Wikipedia's Page for Operation Northwoods

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."

The documents for this are available, this isn't made up.
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Old 04-20-2010, 8:15 PM
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Trevilli, the so-called conservatives won't believe this because they enjoy the "make believe" version of America they learned in school that includes chopping down cherry trees and cowboys.

They can not handle the truth. So, they laugh at it.
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Old 04-20-2010, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rc601962 View Post
Trevilli, the so-called conservatives won't believe this because they enjoy the "make believe" version of America they learned in school that includes chopping down cherry trees and cowboys.

They can not handle the truth. So, they laugh at it.
I agree, it's very difficult to get your head around the idea that your government would kill you to further it's own goals. It's not something that is pleasant to think about, but you have to read the documents for yourself with an open mind. Just because something seems fantastic, horrible or both does not make it untrue.
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Old 04-20-2010, 8:26 PM
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Oh brother..

Out of my head.... ROFLMAO
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Old 04-20-2010, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinixstar View Post
let's see...

the attacks on abortion clinics.
the recent killing of an abortion doctor.
Recent death threats and vandalism against sitting congressthings because of how they voted.
Oaklahoma City
the holocaust museum shooting
the guy who just flew a plane into an IRS building

that's just off the top of my head so far. pretty much every single one has demonstrated some sort of extreme views at the conservative/libertarian end of the spectrum.

that's not to say there haven't been liberal acts of terrorism - but by and large these days liberals are too retarded to carry anything like that out. For the most part they'd rather be seen making a statement then actually make a statement.
You forgot to add Ft. Hood
The Beltway Sniper
Not to mention just about any of the school shootings
Ruby Ridge
Waco

Everyone seems to forget the reason he picked the date to bomb the Murrow Building in OKC was to protest what happened in Waco. I lost a friend in the OKC bombing. So its a bit of a sore subject with me. Not to mention Clinton was the one that really went on the whole TEA party could be considered terrorists and do something similar to OKC. These days anyone that does not agree with the government will be labeled a terrorist.
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Old 04-20-2010, 9:05 PM
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For someone well-versed in American government, and who is not dependent on sheeple to stay in his job, I was severely disappointed how misguided this guy is. It's a shame because the rest of the interview was quite fascinating (talked about North Korea's cyber probes on our networks as well as Israel knocking out Syria's networks before they hit the nuclear plant a year or so ago).
I need to listen to the whole thing because I just heard a small segment while driving on the car part of my commute and that part was intriguing. I understand why he feels some of them are a bit extreme (I feel the same way personally as I see little use in open carry other than swords) but I think they are as useful as was Sam Adams who was also a hot-headed extremist who went out of his way to provoke the British troops to create incidents for propaganda. We don't have to all think and act alike--democracy is an averaging process at best--the key is that we value the same rights and freedoms. And in that, I support those open carry folks.
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Old 04-20-2010, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by trevilli View Post
I agree, it's very difficult to get your head around the idea that your government would kill you to further it's own goals. It's not something that is pleasant to think about, but you have to read the documents for yourself with an open mind. Just because something seems fantastic, horrible or both does not make it untrue.
Guys, its of no use to try to wake up Left - Right Zombies. They will believe what ever fox news/cnn/msnbc tell them. They will always cling to the belief that the Gov would never harm its own citizens.
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Old 04-21-2010, 8:24 AM
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I used to think like some of these well meaning so-called conservatives.

Then, I woke up. It is like the scene in the Matrix where Neo where he takes the red pill.

The fake left and the fake right are the same. They are meant to blind you to the fact that you are a free roam slave. You are not free like you think you are. Understanding this is the first step.
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