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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-16-2010, 9:59 PM
dragonfly22588 dragonfly22588 is offline
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Default Kel Tec Su-16 vs. AR-15

What are the pros and cons of each one? Which one is considered more accuarte?
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:01 PM
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:06 PM
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:06 PM
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They are worlds apart to me... If you want a true go to war gun that's really sturdy and LONG proven, AR is the choice bar far. I haven't really like the SU16s at all. A little flimsy and just meh to me... Kel-Tech is great at doing things different, so if that's what you want, there you go.

Last edited by aermotor; 02-16-2010 at 10:08 PM..
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:22 PM
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Oh, my... now you've gone and done it...

Kel-Tecs are lightweight, easy to handle, accurate, and accept AR mags. They have developed a reputation for problems, although my SU-16A (fitted with "B" model sights) has had none of the reported issues. It's not a battle implement, but it's fun to shoot and my daughters (and many other new shooters introduced to it) like it due to the light weight.

The AR is a battle implement, pure and simple. They come in every guise from KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) to "mall ninja" versions with everything imaginable hung on them. They vary in size from pistol, carbine, and rifle lengths all the way up to precision target versions. Endless supply of spare parts, modifications and so forth.

I have both rifles... I've had an AR go KB on me, but not the SU. No doubt the usual haters/fanboys will weigh in on that subject. Doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned. Both are good rifles meant for different missions.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:27 PM
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So, I'm not going to war with any of these rifles and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to test them by rolling them around in dirt and dust. I'd like to know how they perform in terms of accuracy and reliability. Any good websites for the Su-16?
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:32 PM
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If you live in CA the SU allows you to use removable mags, where the AR won't unless you dump the pistol grip. The AR is a better gun, but IMHO given the hassles in CA, the SU is the winner.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:32 PM
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http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewfo...ays=0&start=50
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=105
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:44 PM
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I thought about getting a Kel-Tec since I'm not too worried about having a "battle" rifle, but in the end I decided to go with a homebuilt AR. SU-16's are REALLY hard to find (especially the B and CA models). Even online they're tough to find in stock, plus add in transfer costs and $$$$!!! Those that I have seen in state are right around $600 bucks!!! I thought the price was too high for what it was. I paid quite a bit more for my AR (all told) but it will be a much superior product in the end with far more room to grow as a shooting platform.

I wouldn't mind having an SU-16 in the future. They're lightweight, and most people who have actually fired them or own them like them. I just couldn't justify the purchase at what they're going for these days.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonfly22588 View Post
So, I'm not going to war with any of these rifles and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to test them by rolling them around in dirt and dust. I'd like to know how they perform in terms of accuracy and reliability. Any good websites for the Su-16?
When I said "go to war" I'm not necessarily meaning that literally... The point is it will outlast and has a track record which can't be touched.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:02 PM
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  #12  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:16 PM
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I own a Kel-Tec SU-16, and as an owner/shooter, I will testify to its usefullness and quality. Its a solid rifle, built well for what it is--- a shooter that looks alot like a battle rifle. I have fired hundreds of rounds with nary an issue, not even an FTF regardless of ammo choice. (I did have a few problems with a Brownell's mag, though-- the edge of the bullet case was hitting the mag edge as the rifle was trying to extract it from the mag, causing it to jam..... not the fault of the rifle.) Kel-Tec has outstanding customer service and they stand behind their products. I love it the damn thing, it treats me well and its suprisingly accurate out to about 100 yards (never really tested it beyond that). Even the little plastic Kel-Tec 10-rounders feed well and never give any grief. (Can't say the same for Brownell's). I think every gun safe should contain a Kel-Tec rifle, they really are worth every penny of what you pay for one.

Now, all that said, comparing the Kel-Tec rifle to a well-built AR-15 is simply an unfair comparison.
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2010, 11:21 PM
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little folder rocks, ar 15 is fun .su16 put it in your backpack, and roll. ar point at it and its hit. su guess, pray, and then you are glad you had the opportunity.
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Old 02-17-2010, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miguel View Post
little folder rocks, ar 15 is fun .su16 put it in your backpack, and roll. ar point at it and its hit. su guess, pray, and then you are glad you had the opportunity.
I dont know about that, I have an su 16b and its really accurate, ive actually seen arguments on here out of the box su 16s are more accurate then many of the ar platforms.
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2010, 7:10 AM
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I dont know about that, I have an su 16b and its really accurate, ive actually seen arguments on here out of the box su 16s are more accurate then many of the ar platforms.
Dream on.
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2010, 8:13 AM
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The SU is a light, small, simple carbine sized semi auto rifle that shoots 223. It is basically the modern equivalent, IMO, of the M1 carbine in size and weight and portability. Plus, it folds and in its stock configuration, it is CA legal. If you want a simple $450-$650 (used/new) rifle for plinking or to take to the range for a fun day of 100-200 or so yard shooting, with out having to think about anything much, the SU is the rifle for you.

If you are looking for more than the above, the AR might be a better choice for you, keeping in mind you will be spending more $ to get one.

That's really the simplest way to break down the differences between the two platforms.
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2010, 8:17 AM
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The only cool thing about the SU16 is its ability to fold. You can stash it in a backpack. It's ideal for hiking. Built well enough to shoot 223.

Yes the AR15 is superior in build quality (generally speaking), the ability to be customized, toughness... however these rifles were built for different reasons.

The AR15 was built for war, the SU16 was built for the more casual shooter that likes a collapsible, super lightweight rifle that can easily be stowed away.

I say one needs both.
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Old 02-17-2010, 8:20 AM
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  #19  
Old 02-17-2010, 8:27 AM
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Just get both!

Dub
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  #20  
Old 02-17-2010, 8:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikTheRed View Post
I own a Kel-Tec SU-16, and as an owner/shooter, I will testify to its usefullness and quality. Its a solid rifle, built well for what it is--- a shooter that looks alot like a battle rifle. I have fired hundreds of rounds with nary an issue, not even an FTF regardless of ammo choice. (I did have a few problems with a Brownell's mag, though-- the edge of the bullet case was hitting the mag edge as the rifle was trying to extract it from the mag, causing it to jam..... not the fault of the rifle.) Kel-Tec has outstanding customer service and they stand behind their products. I love it the damn thing, it treats me well and its suprisingly accurate out to about 100 yards (never really tested it beyond that). Even the little plastic Kel-Tec 10-rounders feed well and never give any grief. (Can't say the same for Brownell's). I think every gun safe should contain a Kel-Tec rifle, they really are worth every penny of what you pay for one.

Now, all that said, comparing the Kel-Tec rifle to a well-built AR-15 is simply an unfair comparison.
I don't agree it's an unfair comparison. Apples to oranges more like.

I agree about the Kel Tec. I have both an AR and an SU. You are comparing apples to oranges. I can kill a rabbit with either one at 150yds. SU is more portable and less expensive. It's designed to be a SURVIVAL rifle. Don't use it as a club.

AR is designed to be a BATTLE rifle and requires more attention to maint. than an SU.

Accuracy is about 1.5 MOA for both rifles, about the same.

Don't let the SU fool you, it is a tough little rifle.

Decide what you want to do with it and buy accordingly.
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  #21  
Old 02-17-2010, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by The Director View Post
Dream on.
Dream on?? I have both, I concur. My SU is in the same ballpark as my AR accuracy wise. They both shoot about a 1.5MOA.

An SU16 will shoot better than 98 percent of those who own them.
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Old 02-17-2010, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by miguel View Post
little folder rocks, ar 15 is fun .su16 put it in your backpack, and roll. ar point at it and its hit. su guess, pray, and then you are glad you had the opportunity.
I take it you've never owned an SU. Too bad! They'll kill anything an AR will under 400yds. They're built to 5.56 NATO specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iknownot View Post
The SU is a light, small, simple carbine sized semi auto rifle that shoots 223. It is basically the modern equivalent, IMO, of the M1 carbine in size and weight and portability. Plus, it folds and in its stock configuration, it is CA legal. If you want a simple $450-$650 (used/new) rifle for plinking or to take to the range for a fun day of 100-200 or so yard shooting, with out having to think about anything much, the SU is the rifle for you.

If you are looking for more than the above, the AR might be a better choice for you, keeping in mind you will be spending more $ to get one.

That's really the simplest way to break down the differences between the two platforms.
The simplest way to break them down is that one is a COMBAT weapon and one is a SURVIVAL weapon.

I like my AR and I like my SU pretty equally. But think about what you said:

"100-200 or so yard shooting, with out having to think about anything much, the SU is the rifle for you."

Not many people will need more than that. A low maintenance firearm that is lethal out to 200 yds. (Actually 350-400 yds).

Don't mean to sound like a ranter, I just get tired of people knocking around the SU and it's usually the ones who have never shot or owned one.

Last edited by Dragunov; 02-17-2010 at 8:47 AM..
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Old 02-17-2010, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
Dream on?? I have both, I concur. My SU is in the same ballpark as my AR accuracy wise. They both shoot about a 1.5MOA.

An SU16 will shoot better than 98 percent of those who own them.
SU is a nice rilfe for convenience or "Survival" if you call it. Other than that, it still has a long way to catch up with AR-15 in term of precision. 1.5 MOA is just an average. A good AR-15 can shoot sub MOA.

I wish that the Kel-Tec can improve the SU design to be more modular, like an option that you can swap the barrel for something better.
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Old 02-17-2010, 8:52 AM
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Originally Posted by The Director View Post
Dream on.
I have to attest to that. I have plenty of AR's, one SU. My SU shoots better groups then a few of my AR's. At 100 yards, with my reloads I can get ~1.5" center-to-center with the SU. Some of my other AR's gets 2" best, on benches and plenty of sandbags. Yes, two of my AR's shoots sub-MOA, but those are for 600+ yard shooting...its not even fair to compare those to the SU.

I would say, Buy a SU if it was before the Obama crazy. But with the price gouging and all, you can get a AR for a few more hundred over the SU. So today, I would tell you to get an AR.

The only thing about AR and SU is the amount of time spent on changing mags. I've been to local matches where guys actually take out their AR's to shoot for the fastest time.....uh....yeah....BB takes almost as long as shooting the mag...not really, but spending time to get a tool to change mags just takes the fun out of it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 8:56 AM
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I dont know about that, I have an su 16b and its really accurate, ive actually seen arguments on here out of the box su 16s are more accurate then many of the ar platforms.
As a happy "B" owner myself, and an AR owner too I can tell you that an SU WILL NOT shoot better than an AR out of the box.

Gas tube weapons are not as accurate as direct impingement weapons.

However.... Dress the SU properly.
Do a trigger job on it.
Lap it.
Practice shooting it.
And it will shoot as well as half the ARs out there. Keep in mind it's not MEANT to be a tack driver.
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Old 02-17-2010, 9:07 AM
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The things that works against the SU the most are the following:

1) It has horrible stock sights. The rear sight on the thing is useless beyond 200 yards. Why KT won't put a decent set of dual aperture sights (like an AR has) on it, is beyond me.

2) It's cost. It's lower cost is a plus, if you are just looking for a plug and play rifle. Once you start thinking about changing anything around on the SU, you are looking to spend way more money than the rifle is worth. Even just changing the rear sights to something decent is often 1/5 the cost of the whole rifle.

If you want a rifle, as is, the SU is a good choice. If you are looking to switch things around, the SU doesn't have many options or you'll have to spend more money than it's worth, IMO.

The SU is what it is. If the "is" is what you are looking for, it's a good choice and a fun little rifle. If not, you are better off getting something else, IMO.
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Old 02-17-2010, 9:12 AM
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Ok lemme jump in this! LOL how about su16 vs mini 14? Need you guys input so I can decide which to get.
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Old 02-17-2010, 9:16 AM
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Ok lemme jump in this! LOL how about su16 vs mini 14? Need you guys input so I can decide which to get.
Mini-14 is Ka-Put! I own three, two 14's and one 30....all shot barn size group at 100 yards! Saw another guy a few years I sold mines...he was shoooting a mini-30, he had 18" group at 100 yards..thats center-to-center. He was pissed off. It was on bench and sandbags too.

I heard the new Mini's shoot better but I havent seen any new ones yet so I cant say...but if they do shoot good, I dont mind getting one because I like the looks of them.
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Old 02-17-2010, 9:44 AM
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Based on what I've seen shooting both, I prefer the SU over the Mini. They both kind of serve the same purpose with regards to being a simple utilitarian rifle so it really comes down to personal preference, but i personally think the SU is the better choice because it is lighter and more handy and as or more accurate.

Try to shoot both and see which you like better.

Last edited by Iknownot; 02-17-2010 at 9:59 AM..
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Old 02-17-2010, 9:49 AM
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Thanx for the input guys.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:19 AM
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I own them both. If the rifle will be for a SHTF scenario, decide what you are going to do.
If you are going to "Shelter in place" and defend your castle, then the AR is probably the better choice.

If you think that you may be "bugging out", then you will need something light, portable, and concealable in a backpack, as you will moving around in the open past population centers, law enforcement barricades/checkpoints, etc. The SU16 gets the nod here.
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:07 PM
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I own both, go with the AR, you will be happier in the long run.
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:29 PM
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I liked my SU-16CA a lot. However, I wanted more accurate rifle, so I sold it, and bought Bushmaster Predator Upper. Now, I own two ARs: a Predator (w/ Monarch 5-20x44 -> long range), and CA-legal Carbon 15 (w/ Aimpoint CompM4 -> short range) w/ cut-off a.k.a. dremeled magwell, and I am very happy

SU Pros:

* Decently accurate out to 50-100 yrds. (sub. 2.5 MOA @ 100)
* Light
* Worked perfectly
* Detachable mags
* Easy to maintain & clean

SU Cons:

* Not too many after market parts
* Hard to customize
* Ergonomics

SU Overall grade: B- (and, I would never buy a Mini)

Last edited by Hyper; 02-17-2010 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mif_slim View Post
Mini-14 is Ka-Put! I own three, two 14's and one 30....all shot barn size group at 100 yards! Saw another guy a few years I sold mines...he was shoooting a mini-30, he had 18" group at 100 yards..thats center-to-center. He was pissed off. It was on bench and sandbags too.

I heard the new Mini's shoot better but I havent seen any new ones yet so I cant say...but if they do shoot good, I dont mind getting one because I like the looks of them.
Meh, I can hit a dinner plate at 100 yards every time with mine, can't ask for much more really. It's NOT a precision rifle.
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:34 PM
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I've never owned an SU-16, but I've fired one many times.

It's FLIMSY. That's what I don't like about it. No matter how lightweight, I still want my guns to feel SOLID. The SU-16 doesn't, in fact it has a bit of flex in places. As far as I'm concerned, if it feels flimsy, it is, and as such durability, reliability, and safety suffer.

JMHO
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Old 02-17-2010, 3:36 PM
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I owned a Mini-14 once. Sold it because it was horribly inaccurate.
I owned a Kel-Tec SU-16CA once, too. Sold it because it could not get through a single magazine without some kind of jam.

I went "black" in 1999, and I WON'T be going back! Thanks, BRD!
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Old 02-17-2010, 4:15 PM
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^above post should not be representative of newer Keltecs
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Old 02-17-2010, 4:20 PM
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I have owned a su-16a and I still have a couple of ARs. While the kel-tec was fun it isn't in the same league as an AR. If I kept the chamber of the kel-tec relatively clean it ran good. If I didn't once in a while I would get a stuck shell. Both of my ARs are more accurate and have better triggers. Also the receiver of the kel-tec would flex if you were to bear down on sand bags or if you used a sling to hold it firm. It seemed that with this flexing the point of impact would change. I got rid of the sling and didn't bear down on the rifle anymore so that solved the problem. Also when I got the kel-tec it was $450 new out the door so the price seemed right. When I hear people paying $600 plus out the door it seems a bit much. You can buy a stripped lower and a basic ar kit for not a whole lot more. Mark
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  #39  
Old 02-17-2010, 5:07 PM
contrarius contrarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railroader View Post
... when I got the kel-tec it was $450 new out the door so the price seemed right. When I hear people paying $600 plus out the door it seems a bit much. You can buy a stripped lower and a basic ar kit for not a whole lot more. Mark
Exactly. Plus, they're hard to even find. AR's are all over. Get a lower and have the rest shipped to your door. Simple.
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  #40  
Old 02-17-2010, 5:41 PM
bwolcott bwolcott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
Dream on.

I am not saying it is or isnt but ive seen that argument, but I will say its a pretty accurate rifle and I own an ar as well! Here is a pic of my su 16 with about 700 total spent on it I bought the gun used for 450$

Last edited by bwolcott; 02-17-2010 at 5:48 PM..
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