[sd1023x]

THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION (FBI) INTENDS TO NEGOTIATE A SOLE-SOURCE, FIXED-PRICE PROCUREMENT WITH ROCK RIVER ARMS, 1042 CLEVELAND ROAD, COLONA, IL 61241, UNDER RFQ 0221719. THIS NOTICE WILL BE DISTRIBUTED SOLELY THROUGH THE GENERAL SERVICES ADMINSITRATION'S (GSA) FEDERAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES (FBO) WEBSITE, WWW.FEDBIZOPPS.GOV. INTERESTED PARTIES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MONITORING THE FBO SITE TO ENSURE THEY HAVE THE MOST UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS ACQUISITION. ROCK RIVER ARMS WILL PROVIDE LAR40, COLT PATTERN .40 S&W CALIBER CARBINES. BASED ON THE MARKET RESEARCH AND FBI REQUIRMENTS, , USE OF A COLT PATTERN .40 S&W CALIBER CARBINE, WILL RESOLVE THE MAINTENANCE ISSUE, ENSURING A RELIABLE SOURCE OF PISTOL CALIBER CARBINES. FURTHER, THE ROCK RIVER ARMS LAR40 PISTOL CALIBER CARBINE WILL ALLOW THE FBI TO MAXIMIZE TRAINING, SINCE THE OPERATIN SYSTEM AND CONTROLS ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO THE COLT PATTERN 5.56 X 45 ADDITION, BY USE OF A COMMON WEAPON PLATFORM, THERE IS A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF PARTS INTERCHANGEABILITY BETWEEN EXISTIN FBI 5.56 X 45 MM LAR15 ROCK RIVER ARMS CARBINES AND THE LAR40, FURTHER ENHANCING THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS ACQUISITION. THE FBI REQUIRES AN INTEGRAL MAGAZINE WELL (AS OPPOSED TO A PINNED MAGAZINE WELL ADAPTOR) AND A CALIBER DEDICATED MAGAZINE, DEVELOPED SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS WEAPON SYSTEM AND CALIBER, WHICH ENSURES THE LEVEL OF RELIABILITY REQUIRED BY FBI SPECIAL AGENTS DURING HIGH RISK SITUATIONS. THE FBI REQUIRES THIS CARBINE TO BE MANUFACTURED IN .40 S&W CALIBER, WHICH WILL PROVIDE GREATER OPERATIONAL EFFECIENTCY, SINCE BOTH THE ISSUED SERVICE PISTOL AND THE PISTOL CALIBERCOLT PATTERN CARBINE WILL BE CHAMBERED FOR THE SAME AMMUNITION (I.E., .40 S&W CALIBER). ROCK RIVER ARMS IS THE ONLY MANUFACTURER KNOWN TO MEET THESE CRITICAL REQUIREMENTS. THIS NOTICE OF INTENT IS NOT A REQUEST FOR COMPETITVE QUOTATIONS, HOWEVER, INTERESTED PARTIES MAY IDENTIFY THEIR INTERESTS AND CAPABILITIE TO RESPOND TO THIS REQUIREMENT OR SUBMIT QUOTES TO THIS OFFICE BY 10:00 A.M. EDT, AUGUST 19, 2009, VIA FACSIMILE TO THE ATTENTION OF LAURIE L. WILLIAMS, CONTRACT SPECIALIST, AT (703) 632-6103. INFORMATION RECEIVED WILL SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF DETERMINING WHETHER TO CONDUCT A COMPETITIVE PROCUREMENT. THE AWARDEE SHALL BE REGISTERED IN THE CENTRAL CONTRACTOR'S REGISTRATION (CCR) DATABASE, AND ALSO THE ON-LINE REPRESENTATIONS AND CERTIFICATION (ORCA) AT HTTP://ORCA.BPN.GOV.

I wonder why they didn't go with a shorter barrel? http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html


https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...&cck=1&au=&ck=

[maxwellca21]

the skinny magazine sticking out of that fat mag well just killed it. i vote ugly.

[VegasND]

I don't understand a firearm that large firing a handgun cartridge.

I tend to feel that if you're going to carry something the size of a rifle it should fire a rifle-power cartridge.

[Henry Hill]

Originally Posted by VegasND

I don't understand a firearm that large firing a handgun cartridge.

I tend to feel that if you're going to carry something the size of a rifle it should fire a rifle-power cartridge.

I agree.

Wait is this their replacement for the MP5 they carry?

[FeuerFrei]

WTF...bringing a pistol caliber rifle to a gun fight?
Why would a 40 be better than a 223?
Procurement people must be smoking all the DEA's confiscated weed or something. Clearly nobody that has been in a firefight made this decision.
Bean counters made this call for sure.

[BroncoBob]

Well I would like to see them carry that in their FBI "CANT"

[B Strong]

Good on them.

I've always thought that the M16-9 was a better choice than the MP-5.

Wonder what Mag they're basing their design on.

[cal3gunner]

Originally Posted by VegasND

I don't understand a firearm that large firing a handgun cartridge.

I tend to feel that if you're going to carry something the size of a rifle it should fire a rifle-power cartridge.

I agree with that. 223 will punch right through body armor that 40 won't. Did the FBI forget that bad guys wear body armor too? 223 has much better ballistics and trajectory if they do have to make a long shot. Think of a crazy kid wearing body armor doing another Columbine, its easy to have a 100 yard shot on a lot of high school campuses.

223 also frags better when hitting hard objects which is better for clearing rooms because the 40 is going to go through more walls and has a higher chance of accidentally hitting someone.

So is the idea behind this that a FBI agent can shoot all the ammo in his rifle mags then reload his rifle mags with his pistol ammo....not very likely. If this is the scenario they are considering, they should train their agents more so they make the shots they take count. In reality, they probably want to do this because its easier for them to just buy 40 ammo and do their quals and training with it, instead of buying 223 which is more expensive.

What they need is a 12.5 inch barrel AR with a suppressor that fits over the flash hider and doesn't add that much to the overall length. This is something you can shoot indoors without hearing protection and won't blow your ear drums out. It will be more than effective on two legged targets even if wearing body armor, and is more than capable of making a precise shot at 100-150 yards if the shooter has been trained enough.

[aplinker]

What makes you think they didn't get them with shorter barrels.

There are good reasons not to choose a rifle round (like better suppression & less recoil).

I'm willing to bet .40S&W might be just fine against anything but level III+ (not IIIa) out of a carbine.

[Flogger23m]

Originally Posted by cal3gunner

I agree with that. 223 will punch right through body armor that 40 won't. Did the FBI forget that bad guys wear body armor too?

Are you sure everyone they shoot wears body armor?

Sometimes they might require a pistol caliber rather than a rifle one.

[sd1023x]

Originally Posted by aplinker

What makes you think they didn't get them with shorter barrels.

There are good reasons not to choose a rifle round (like better suppression & less recoil).

I'm willing to bet .40S&W might be just fine against anything but level III+ (not IIIa) out of a carbine.

Cuz RRA doesn't offer them in any other length so I'm not going to make any assumptions. Do you have any information to the contrary? But clearly there are no advantages to 16 in barrel to something just a few inches shorter and makes a world of difference. And if your going to carry a rifle/carbine with ar style 16incher, why bother with .40, go 5.56.

[aplinker]

Originally Posted by sd1023x

Cuz RRA doesn't offer them in any other length so I'm not going to make any assumptions. Do you have any information to the contrary? But clearly there are no advantages to 16 in barrel to something just a few inches shorter and makes a world of difference. And if your going to carry a rifle/carbine with ar style 16incher, why bother with .40, go 5.56.

My original post was supposed to be a ?, not a statement. I was asking. There was a recent discussion about another agency buying shotguns and it was later learned they were SBS', that's why I asked. RRA's lack of an SBR in that section doesn't mean it does not exist. Shortening a pistol cal rifle really is as easy as chop & crown as there's no gas system.

From a procedural POV there are advantages to a 16" barrel - there are hoops for LE, as well.

Without knowing a bit more about whom these are going to it's difficult to ascertain whether easy (16") is more important than functionality (shorter, with suppressor).

[Plisk]

I want it in a .45

[sd1023x]

Oh yeah, HK has discontinued all metal receiver guns. That might have something to do with it. No more 10mm support, great gun.

[paladin4415]

What makes you think the FBI has any idea what they're doing? Pistol caliber AR's have often suffered from mag issues.

[Scratch705]

maybe they got them to aid in training? since the FBI already has RRA guns in 5.56. maybe this is to get agents up to speed on AR handling skills without the need to fire expensive 5.56 ammo?

FURTHER, THE ROCK RIVER ARMS LAR40 PISTOL CALIBER CARBINE WILL ALLOW THE FBI TO MAXIMIZE TRAINING, SINCE THE OPERATIN SYSTEM AND CONTROLS ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL TO THE COLT PATTERN 5.56 X 45 ADDITION, BY USE OF A COMMON WEAPON PLATFORM, THERE IS A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF PARTS INTERCHANGEABILITY BETWEEN EXISTIN FBI 5.56 X 45 MM LAR15 ROCK RIVER ARMS CARBINES AND THE LAR40, FURTHER ENHANCING THE COST EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS ACQUISITION

it states it right in the article

[aplinker]

I'm pretty sure that's a statement of "less additional training," rather than, "these are for training."

Originally Posted by Scratch705

maybe they got them to aid in training? since the FBI already has RRA guns in 5.56. maybe this is to get agents up to speed on AR handling skills without the need to fire expensive 5.56 ammo?

it states it right in the article

[killshot44]

.40 Caliber makes a lot of sense for many reasons. Mostly used at short range, able to shoot thru small obstructions.........

But, yeah, why in a AR platform?

[sd1023x]

Originally Posted by killshot44

.40 Caliber makes a lot of sense for many reasons. Mostly used at short range, able to shoot thru small obstructions.........

But, yeah, why in a AR platform?

No more 10mm support?

[pacrimguru]

Originally Posted by aplinker

What makes you think they didn't get them with shorter barrels.

There are good reasons not to choose a rifle round (like better suppression & less recoil).

I'm willing to bet .40S&W might be just fine against anything but level III+ (not IIIa) out of a carbine.

+1 to the above.

wow, there are a lot of uniformed people chiming in. among many other reasons, pistol calibers are also preferred at times because of problems of over penetration with rifle calibers.

when in close quarters action, like in an apartment unit for example, agents don't want a round that can penetrate through one end of the building to the other and end up across the street. sure a pistol round might go through a room or two, but a rifle round would go much further.

[gunsmithcats]

Yes, but .223 has been proven over and over to penetrate less drywall than say 9mm or .45.
Someones been smoking crack.

[aplinker]

Originally Posted by gunsmithcats

Yes, but .223 has been proven over and over to penetrate less drywall than say 9mm or .45.
Someones been smoking crack.

yup, its over-penetration is a myth.

[Richie Caketown]

Originally Posted by Plisk

I want it in a .45

thats what the Super V is for

[VegasND]

Okay, several posters have justified a rifle in the same .40 caliber as their pistol. I'd still like to know why it isn't something smaller; there are newer designs for SMGs that could be chambered for this round, be fired from the shoulder, and yet be smaller in size than the AR platform.

I'd like to hear a good rationalization for the mating of this combination.

[nrakid88]

Jeez... in .40? Might as well go 10mm! That way, the FEDs can plow through BP vests, and then RRA will offer 10mm rifles to the public, since the R&D will be financed by the feds.

PLEASE!

[Ding126]

I'm sure this .40 cal AR is in addition to and not the sole weapon being issued..Also would it be practical for the rifle to shoot the same ammo as their pistols?

You would think with the 40 cal & 10mm MP5's thats all they would need. I would take an MP5 over an AR platform anytime, anyday.

[NeoWeird]

Just off the top of my head, but several of the worst and most publicly covered FBI blunders involved shootouts between agents and one or more people in a vehicle. I'm thinking the idea was to get something with the intent to have it penetrate. The .40 was probably chosen since the FBI had a couple bum cases with 10mm and probably want to disassociate with it, .45s relative trouble in the AR platform, and ammunition commonality between it and their side arms. The AR was probably choosen because, as noted, H&K is dropping support of their Mp series and they already train with AR series weapons.

That aside, I'd take a 5.56 into a room clearing scenario ANY day over any other caliber currently on the market, and I'd take a 10mm carbine over any other pistol caliber carbine on the market. Then again, I have the luxury to not have to worry about collaterial damage as much as the FBI does.

[WW2Buff]

I agree with all poster saying stay with the 5.56 but also the few posters saying they're not phasing out the 5.56 but just using these in appropriate situations. -Ben

[KrizB]

Originally Posted by NeoWeird

Just off the top of my head, but several of the worst and most publicly covered FBI blunders involved shootouts between agents and one or more people in a vehicle. I'm thinking the idea was to get something with the intent to have it penetrate. The .40 was probably chosen since the FBI had a couple bum cases with 10mm and probably want to disassociate with it, .45s relative trouble in the AR platform, and ammunition commonality between it and their side arms. The AR was probably choosen because, as noted, H&K is dropping support of their Mp series and they already train with AR series weapons.

A few years ago there was an fatal friendly fire incident during a bank robbery shootout.
IIRC, one FBI Agent fired his M4 and a bullet went through both doors of the undercover Agents car and tagged him in the armpit, just above the vest.

Of course it's been a while since I read about it, so details are probably different now.

[bakokid]

next u will be tellin me their snipers are using goose guns.lol
this is like carrying a 25lb 223 with a 30" barrel. handgun cartriges are for compact light firearms

[yellowfin]

I just look forward to buying it cheap when they get tired of it. It'll do great for me and the wifey if we decide to pick up some used G22's that are floating around for just a squeak over $300 these days. Cha-ching! Judging just by that picture, it looks like they'll simply use Uzi mags like Colt 9mm AR's do. That's the simplest route they could go.

[Westcost]

Originally Posted by maxwellca21

the skinny magazine sticking out of that fat mag well just killed it. i vote ugly.

Me too....

[Acorn556]

there goes availability of 40S&W.

[BNuge]

Its possible based on that article that they intend to use it mostly for training purposes.

[DREADNOUGHT78]

I like it! This will be awesome with my Glock22! Only have to bring one ammo can the the range!

[lehn20]

Funny Business Incorporated!!
Politics and money made this deal. Wait till they have another shootout where several agents die and they will reconsider. Just like when they went from wheelguns to semi.
Sad people has to die from other peoples retarded thinking.
Then again, the FBI has been a joke for a long time.....................

[bakokid]

Originally Posted by lehn20

Funny Business Incorporated!!
Politics and money made this deal. Wait till they have another shootout where several agents die and they will reconsider. Just like when they went from wheelguns to semi.
Sad people has to die from other peoples retarded thinking.
Then again, the FBI has been a joke for a long time.....................

amen brotha

[Saym14]

YOUR tax dollars at work.

[Patrick Aherne]

Originally Posted by pacrimguru

+1 to the above.

wow, there are a lot of uniformed people chiming in. among many other reasons, pistol calibers are also preferred at times because of problems of over penetration with rifle calibers.

when in close quarters action, like in an apartment unit for example, agents don't want a round that can penetrate through one end of the building to the other and end up across the street. sure a pistol round might go through a room or two, but a rifle round would go much further.

No. .40 will penetrate far more than 5.56 mm in common residential construction. Your post is completely wrong and bad information.

[DRM6000]

i wonder if .40 works in 9mm mags? if it does, i could just swap the .40 upper with the 9mm one and have another caliber. i could have a 9mm carbine to match the 9mm pistols and a .40 combo as well.