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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:38 AM
ap3572001 ap3572001 is offline
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Default Handgun registration

Please explain handgun registration..... Is there a National registration? Or what was bought in CA stays in Ca? For example. I buy a pistol in CA go Nevada, sell the pistol to a shop in Nevada, then they sell it to someone. Who's name is it in? Or I sell it on Gunbroker to a guy in Vermont, ship it to their FFL. The FFL transfers it to buyer. Is the gun now in the new buyers name? Nationwide? And still in my name in CA? Or someone moves here form Wisconsin with a couple fo pistols. Lives here. Are they in His name ONLY in Wisconsin? It may sound like a dumb question. But I woulk like to know how it works.

What does that mean when people say that the gun is not in anyones name??? They mean in CA? Or in USA?
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2010, 8:12 AM
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No, there is no national registration.

Handguns sold through FFLs must use the Federal 4473 but (a) in most of the country, going through an FFL is not required for in-state sales, and (b) BATF is legislatively forbidden from creating a searchable database from the 4473 information.

A gun that never saw an FFL is 'not in anyone's name', that is, the .gov has no record of it. FFLs came into existence in 1968. A handgun sold through a CA-licensed firearms dealer will have gone through DROS reporting, pretty much in its current form since 1922 (absent the computer part!).

A gun that went through an FFL once, for its original purchase, and subsequently was legally transferred without an FFL, or a gun which was stolen, might be traceable to the original purchaser, but no further.

If you buy a handgun in CA, and subsequently legally sell it through an FFL to a resident of another state, CA will still have the records it collected through the DROS - so far as CA knows, you still have it. Whether the person in the other state will have it registered to him in that state is up to that state's laws.
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
If you buy a handgun in CA, and subsequently legally sell it through an FFL to a resident of another state, CA will still have the records it collected through the DROS - so far as CA knows, you still have it. Whether the person in the other state will have it registered to him in that state is up to that state's laws.
Also, after you sell/transfer it to a FFL in another state, you can submit a Notice of No Longer in Possession to CA DOJ BOF, so that CA knows you no longer have it.
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Last edited by Quiet; 02-07-2010 at 10:17 AM..
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  #4  
Old 02-07-2010, 5:36 PM
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You can't cross state lines to sell the pistol. You can only sell the gun in the state you reside. Otherwise you have to have an FFL in CA send it to a FFL in NV. This dumb federal law is aimed at gun traffickers.

Any handgun transferred in CA (except inter fam) has to go through a FFL or you commit a felony 12072(d) violation. Rifles sold outside of an FFL is a misdo 12072(d); rifles over 50 years old are exempt from FFL requirement.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
You can't cross state lines to sell the pistol. You can only sell the gun in the state you reside. Otherwise you have to have an FFL in CA send it to a FFL in NV. This dumb federal law is aimed at gun traffickers.
Bzzzzzt, WRONG!

THERE IS (generally; exception for AWs) NO REQUIREMENT FOR A CA RESIDENT TO SHIP A GUN FROM A CA FFL. CA RESIDENTS CAN ALSO TRANSPORT THEIR GUNS TO OTHER STATES FOR SALES THRU FFLs IN OTHER STATES.

You can easily be in another state and sell a firearm to another party, as long as it goes thru an FFL. [Certain states' laws might require more, but this is generally true in at least 46-47 states.] You can also, while in CA and/or being a CA resident, ship a gun to a non-CA FFL.

The only exception is CA-defined reg'd assault weapons. These can't be shipped from CA directly to an FFL in another state, and must use services of a CA FFL also holding a DOJ AW permit. However, this restriction does not apply if the reg'd AW is driven/carried/flown with by its owner to a non-CA destination. At that point the gun's AW status is irrelevant (it's just YAG, yet-another-gun) and can be sold to/thru an FFL there.
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:14 PM
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I spoke with ATF about this issue last year. They said if I cross state lines with the intent to sell a handgun to a resident in another state I have violated federal law? I know there is no CA law that would be in violation, but based on the ATF agents statements I thought there was a federal law on point.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
I spoke with ATF about this issue last year. They said if I cross state lines with the intent to sell a handgun to a resident in another state I have violated federal law? I know there is no CA law that would be in violation, but based on the ATF agents statements I thought there was a federal law on point.
Either...
1. you misunderstood ATF agent;
2. ATF agent misunderstood you;
3. ATF agent as equally confused as you (high likelihood given what I saw at SHOT Show!)
4. ATF agent assumed no FFL was involved at all, that it was a face to face transaction (in which case he's correct)

You can fully intend to sell/complete the sale of a gun in another state. It just has to run thru an FFL in that state, and be a legal gun, etc. Again, no originating FFL is required (except in the case of shipping an AW from CA).
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Last edited by bwiese; 02-07-2010 at 6:36 PM..
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:20 PM
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I will call back and try to reach the same agent and ask for a specific section and see what they come up with. I was very clear with my question and he was very clear with his answer. tks
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
I will call back and try to reach the same agent and ask for a specific section and see what they come up with. tks
Why?

This is like asking an IRS phone operator for tax advice, or (better analogy) asking your plumber for medical advice.

Be aware that ATF, like CA DOJ, often supplies incorrect info on the phone. The people on the phone are clerks and should be regarded as such.

If the ATF disagrees with my statements above, they are wrong and I am right.

There is no citeable law/regulation prohibiting such actions. As long as there's an FFL at the destination, it's OK. Otherwise millions of Auction Arms and GunBroker sellers would be in jail, including me. And no Reno or Vegas pawn shop or gunship would be able to hold an FFL, since I'm sure they get quite a few guns from Californians who need gas money coming back to CA after losing it at the tables.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:34 PM
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After reading your last post I think we may be in agreement. My point was you can't cross state lines to sell a pistol to another resident in a private party sale.
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2010, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
After reading your last post I think we may be in agreement. My point was you can't cross state lines to sell a pistol to another resident in a private party sale.
Indeed, absolutely correct. It just has to go thru an FFL.

Again, there is no originating FFL requirement - really just a destination FFL requirement.
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
After reading your last post I think we may be in agreement. My point was you can't cross state lines to sell a pistol to another resident in a private party sale.
It's just odd that you even brought up the subject, since nobody in this thread ever mentioned selling a firearm to a resident of another State in a private party sale. The OP only mentioned selling the gun to a gunshop in another State and shipping the gun to an FFL in another State.
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Old 02-08-2010, 9:10 AM
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As I am soon to leave this state, what steps, if any do I take with the handgun that I own?
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:34 AM
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As I am soon to leave this state, what steps, if any do I take with the handgun that I own?
Generally none. If it's NY, NJ, MA, MD you very well may have to start some paperwork - check those states'/locales' laws & regulations. I can't/won't speak for behavior in those areas, as I don't like 'foreigners' outside CA speaking up about CA gun law details of which they have no idea (Grey Peterson and ilbob are notable exceptions....)

But if you move to a free state, the only requirement I can think of is that your gun be well-oiled
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:55 AM
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FYI, here is ATF's FAQ on the subject that confirms what bwiese is saying about the FFL requirement applying to the purchaser's state:

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

Quote:
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
And this one says that you (a nonlicensee) can ship a firearm to an FFL in another state:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

Quote:
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
As I am soon to leave this state, what steps, if any do I take with the handgun that I own?
Take me with you!
I was just about to ask that very same thing.
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Old 02-08-2010, 3:12 PM
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I'm moving to Virginia, which looks very free. No registration is required there. I didn't know if there was an "unregistration" issue.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:40 AM
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I was thinking about Oregon or Utah, based on job market, gun laws, and 2nd amendment rights. Trying to talk to a Californian about rights is like talking to a brick. I just get tired of it most of the time. To see so many people too much in a hurry or lives to worry about "rights". I'm becoming some sort of conspiracy theorist to them.
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