[Gray Peterson]

UPDATED COMBINED DONATION FUND COUNT: $11,614

WE GOT IT! We got $11,614 total (5420 Gunpal/CalGuns, 4831 OFEF, 1365 mailed donations), and the machine costs 11,292.94. We got it done, folks, great thanks to all who donated!

Please see this FAQ posting about tour dates in California, and about when the machine will be available:

Let me restate what's already been stated before:

Sheriff Palmer's machine is being bought by the Oregon Firearms Educational Foundation. CrossMatch, the company which sells the LiveScan machine, has told OFEF that it takes 30 to 45 days to create, configure, and then send out someone from their home office to train the officers of the department how to use the machine. Since Grant County has never had a LiveScan machine before, this will be an education for them.

Sheriff Palmer, besides taking non-resident apps in Canyon City, OR, has also been traveling to Vancouver, WA/Portland, OR and Puyallup (WA) and taking applications there and using the ink fingerprint method. Why is he doing this before the LiveScan machine? There are a few reasons.

1) Sheriff Palmer traveling to the Portland Metro area and Tacoma/Seattle metro area and taking a lot of applications is getting the attention of the County Commissioners, who criticized him for the possibility of not getting enough of a return on carry licenses. The large hauls he's brought into the county treasury is starting to change their tune.

2) Portland and Tacoma/Seattle areas has family members there that can help him with the application processing. I was proud to help the Sheriff in taking application questions at the Washington Arms Collector's Show in Puyallup. He will not have such help from his family in California due to the distances, but Palmer himself will be at the Calfornia shows. Think of his shows up there as a "Beta test" of how it works. He may need to teach any of his helpers in California how to take the applications and so on, because it is anticipated that Palmer's table will be taking MANY times more applications at a 2 day gun show at ANY of the California shows than the ones in Puyallup (WA). A LiveScan machine would quicken the pace and allow him to take applications quicker, and make easier to train others on taking prints than ink fingerprinting, given the likely massive California gun show volume.

3) We will be announcing in this thread, along with possibly creating a new one, his dates in California. Given that it takes 30-45 days to get the machine in working order and being able to use it, I would not plan on anything before June 15th. Sorry folks, trying to learn fingerprinting systems at a gun show is not a good idea, especially when it comes to high volume of processing at a gun show rather than just sitting in the sheriff's office used a few times a day.

UPDATE: Sheriff Palmer announced in this thread that he will accept a training certificate from the Maryland Police Training Commission, which is a FREE online course as it goes over aspects of handgun safety.

Maryland Online Training Course

Also, you can download the FILLABLE PDF Grant County Sheriff CHL Application as well.

Alert from Oregon Firearms Federation

Finally we have a bit of news we're happy and eager to report.

You know that we make every effort to keep our requests for donations to a responsible level. Yes, we need funds to operate, but the weekly pitches that you get from other groups are not our style. But, we are asking that you consider making a donation of whatever amount you can afford to help an Oregon Sheriff who is a true friend to gun owners.

Since the legislature has been incapable of expanding our CHL program to visitors from other states (you may recall our efforts to do that last year were shot down by Representative Judy Stiegler,) Sheriff Glenn Palmer of Grant County has decided he wants to make it as easy as possible for non-residents to apply for Oregon CHL's. He hopes to actually travel to gun shows in adjoining states and take applications there.

Palmer has been a strong advocate of gun rights, but he has a small budget and he needs some help. The sheriff would like to purchase a digital fingerprint device so he can take applicants' prints with less chance of them being rejected as unreadable.

OFF is sending him $1000.00 towards the purchase. Anything you can do to help would be appreciated. You can send him a donation directly.

In an e-mail to us yesterday the sheriff said "If they want to send it to me at 205 South Humboldt Street Canyon City, Or. 97820 with a note for fingerprint machine I will put it into our monthly turn over with a line to a specific account that is and will be used for the upgrade on the equipment....what ever you can come up with would be wonderful too!!!!"

Or if you prefer to donate by credit card, you can make a donation to the Oregon Firearms Educational Foundation and we will forward it to him. Be sure to note that your donation is for Sheriff Palmer. You can do that safely on line here. Use the drop down menu to indicate your donation is for the Foundation and any field to note it's for the Sheriff. Thanks for helping.

For myself, I've spoken to Sheriff Palmer multiple times over the last two months over multiple different issues. He is a true believer in the 2nd amendment, the right to carry, and the right to armed self defense. Where other counties in Oregon flat out refuse to issue licenses, require business reasons, and so on, Sheriff Palmer has said flat out that "Self Defense" is an "other legitimate demonstrated need". When I say "He is Oregon's most pro-gun and pro-self defense sheriff", I am not saying so lightly.

Grant County is a county of about 8500 people. Given that law enforcement and county budgets in general is getting squeezed, Sheriff Palmer cannot afford the proper LiveScan equipment, as his department been having issues with ink fingerprinting and doesn't want to give OSP a reason to reject the applications based on ink smudges and so on, as their reject rate is going higher as an encouragement to upgrade. Remote LiveScan equipment is pretty expensive, but the best way to get the licenses processed quickly and without requiring the return trip.

Any help you folks can send Sheriff Palmer on getting the remote LiveScan equipment, so he can get down to the gun shows in the various parts of California and process your non-resident applications, would be greatly appreciated.

For Non-Tax Deductable Donations via CalGuns Inc/GunPal:



For Tax Deductible Donations Via Oregon Firearms Education Foundation (Make sure under type of donation use "Oregon Firearms Education Foundation" and make sure you put in "Grant County Fingerprinting" in the tribute):



If you want to snail mail a check or money order it directly to Sheriff Glenn Palmer, you can send it to:

Glenn Palmer
Grant County Sheriff's Office
205 S. Humboldt
Canyon City, OR 97820

Make sure it is paid to the order of the Grant County Sheriff's Office, and make sure to include in the memo "Fingerprinting Machine" so that it can be used for that purpose.

[hoffmang]

If Sheriff Palmer can get a portable live scan device, I'm pretty confident that CGF can assist Sheriff Palmer with his travel expenses to outfit California gunowners with OR licenses to carry...

-Gene

[Gray Peterson]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

If Sheriff Palmer can get a portable live scan device, I'm pretty confident that CGF can assist Sheriff Palmer with his travel expenses to outfit California gunowners with OR licenses to carry...

-Gene

I'm sure he'd greatly appreciate that. The fact that any chief law enforcement officer is willing to go to another state and process a carry license application instead of making them come all the way to his locality is quite unprecedented.

[Gray Peterson]

Sheriff Palmer can already take Non-Resident CHL apps at this present time from Californians, and will issue to a Californian as long as they are legally eligible for an Oregon CHL, but with the current caveat that they must come to Canyon City, Oregon. The purpose of the fund raising for the remote LiveScan equipment is so that he can come down to California (and other contiguous) states gun shows and allow them to apply to him directly at the shows. To my knowledge, no other sheriff has done anything like this before, in any state.

[wildhawker]

Calguns will assist the Sheriff in gun show logistics and volunteer support; we're pretty good at that.

[nick]

How much is this equipment?

[7x57]

What about having a dinner or some other event as a fundraiser for his gear? If the cost/benefit is right, have him come down and speak at it.

ETA: and if he does come down, we really ought to make sure he's made welcome--to the extent that can be done without appearance of impropriety, which come to think of it might not permit anything.

7x57

[Cokebottle]

Originally Posted by 7x57

ETA: and if he does come down, we really ought to make sure he's made welcome--to the extent that can be done without appearance of impropriety, which come to think of it might not permit anything.

Meet and greet and a dinner where he buys his own meal.

The warm hands and smiling faces will be a very nice welcome.

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by Gray Peterson

Alert from Oregon Firearms Federation



For myself, I've spoken to Sheriff Palmer multiple times over the last two months over multiple different issues. He is a true believer in the 2nd amendment, the right to carry, and the right to armed self defense. Where other counties in Oregon flat out refuse to issue licenses, require business reasons, and so on, Sheriff Palmer has said flat out that "Self Defense" is an "other legitimate demonstrated need". When I say "He is Oregon's most pro-gun and pro-self defense sheriff", I am not saying so lightly.

Grant County is a county of about 8500 people. Given that law enforcement and county budgets in general is getting squeezed, Sheriff Palmer cannot afford the proper LiveScan equipment, as his department been having issues with ink fingerprinting and doesn't want to give OSP a reason to reject the applications based on ink smudges and so on, as their reject rate is going higher as an encouragement to upgrade. Remote LiveScan equipment is pretty expensive, but the best way to get the licenses processed quickly and without requiring the return trip.

Any help you folks can send Sheriff Palmer on getting the remote LiveScan equipment, so he can get down to the gun shows in the various parts of California and process your non-resident applications, would be greatly appreciated.

This sounds like a county that might be receptive to the "reserve officer" program or whatever it was going to be called to allow CCW under the peace officer exemption. Reserve applications would be an influx of $ that would also help provide funds for the livescan equipment.

[hoffmang]

Originally Posted by djbooya

This sounds like a county that might be receptive to the "reserve officer" program or whatever it was going to be called to allow CCW under the peace officer exemption. Reserve applications would be an influx of $ that would also help provide funds for the livescan equipment.

I don't think the reserve office concept is all that good of an idea at this time. It is exceedingly nebulous on certain legalities, and it comes so shortly before carry licensing is about to be liberalized nationwide that I'm not sure the rewards offset the risks.

In fact, I expect we'll have 49 state reciprocity in the next 18 months from Congress (you can carry in any state except carrying in your own requires your state's license.)

-Gene

[djbooya]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

I don't think the reserve office concept is all that good of an idea at this time. It is exceedingly nebulous on certain legalities, and it comes so shortly before carry licensing is about to be liberalized nationwide that I'm not sure the rewards offset the risks.

Sounds reasonable.

In fact, I expect we'll have 49 state reciprocity in the next 18 months from Congress (you can carry in any state except carrying in your own requires your state's license.)

-Gene

I don't know where I've been, but this is the first I've heard about this one. How do you forsee this helping us in CA? Would it be the combination of the reciprocity and the work already being done on getting shall issue statewide?

[CaliforniaCarry]

Originally Posted by djbooya

I don't know where I've been, but this is the first I've heard about this one. How do you forsee this helping us in CA? Would it be the combination of the reciprocity and the work already being done on getting shall issue statewide?

Think about how many gun more gun owners will be politically "activated" when they realize that any citizen from the 49 other states can get a permit and carry in CA, when CA's own citizens can't. If nothing else, it serves to make CA's permitting system seem ridiculous to the whole nation.

[Gray Peterson]

Originally Posted by djbooya

I don't know where I've been, but this is the first I've heard about this one. How do you forsee this helping us in CA? Would it be the combination of the reciprocity and the work already being done on getting shall issue statewide?

I wont directly answer on someone else' behalf but I can offer my own observation. Gene is correct that we are within 18 months of getting reciprocity. The Thune Amendment to the defense authorization bill was 58-39 (there was a filibuster against it, and two Republican senators Voinovich and Lugar voted to sustain the filibuster). With Scott Brown (R-MA) stripping away one more anti-gun vote, we're 1 vote shy.

After McDonald, and after a positive Court of Appeals ruling in Palmer, we'll likely see Congress doing everything possible to please gun owners, as they will try to save their own skin. If they don't, we'll get it after the 2010 elections 5 months post McDonald. If that doesn't get the job done, then the Palmer case will end up in front of SCOTUS (unless DC just gives up, but many of us think that they're too stupid and that not appealing will be bad politics locally for a majority anti-gun electorate) in 2011, and it will essentially seal the deal. Reciprocity will pretty much be assured because no state will want to deal with the massive flood in applications to them after they must change their law or have it struck down.

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by Gray Peterson

Alert from Oregon Firearms Federation

He is a true believer in the 2nd amendment, the right to carry, and the right to armed self defense.

Any help you folks can send Sheriff Palmer on getting the remote LiveScan equipment, so he can get down to the gun shows in the various parts of California and process your non-resident applications, would be greatly appreciated.

I'll give $100. Is his dept hiring Ca. laterals?

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by Liberty1

I'll give $100. Is his dept hiring Ca. laterals?

Hmmm a 7 person dept?

Sheriff: Glenn E. Palmer
Undersheriff: Todd McKinley
Civil Deputy: Sally DeFord
Road Deputies: James Burgett and Charles McKenna
Reserve Deputies: Scott Moore and Joe Coehlo

Sounds like a nice dept. but openings are slim I bet...

[Gray Peterson]

Folks,

Regardless of whether or not Sheriff Palmer does the reserve deputy thing (which I have serious doubts that he would considering the Oregon statutes involving the practice, the potential liabilities of a potential Colafrencesco situation, and so on), he will still need a LiveScan machine in order to do either thing. Do you want to help him do this?

So let's bring the topic back to the topic at hand, in that Sheriff Palmer is 100 percent willing to issue OR CHL's to contiguous state residents solely for self defense, and willing to come to gun shows in California to make this happen. Getting a machine that will not have "smudging" errors that ink fingerprinting does is the fastest way to make this happen.

[hill billy]

Originally Posted by nick

How much is this equipment?

My question as well.

[Gray Peterson]

Originally Posted by hill billy

My question as well.

Around 12K is what's being looked at. Do you know anything that fits the requirements that's cheaper? PM me so I can send it off to the sheriff.

[ZombieTactics]

Originally Posted by CaliforniaCarry

Think about how many gun more gun owners will be politically "activated" when they realize that any citizen from the 49 other states can get a permit and carry in CA, when CA's own citizens can't. If nothing else, it serves to make CA's permitting system seem ridiculous to the whole nation.

You would think that such a state of affairs would bring about multiple lawsuits, as it would certainly be California denying a "benefit" (maybe a right or priviledge) to its own residents which it is obligated by law to provide to non-residents

[wildhawker]

We can raise $12k in *days*. Maybe he should plan on joining us at an upcoming Calguns booth.

[7x57]

Originally Posted by wildhawker

We can raise $12k in *days*. Maybe he should plan on joining us at an upcoming Calguns booth.

At the Cow Palace in the heart of enemy territory.

And Costa Mesa too, but the symbolism isn't quite as sweet.

7x57

[wildhawker]

Originally Posted by 7x57

At the Cow Palace in the heart of enemy territory.

And Costa Mesa too, but the symbolism isn't quite as sweet.

7x57

You are reading my mind.

[hill billy]

Originally Posted by Gray Peterson

Around 12K is what's being looked at. Do you know anything that fits the requirements that's cheaper? PM me so I can send it off to the sheriff.

No, I don't. Just wondering what the goal is. I'd sure like to help him out.

[Glock22Fan]

I applaud this initiative. However, my experience is that Livescan is not perfect. My prints were taken by LVMPD by Livescan at their Fingerprint bureau and were rejected by the state and by FBI. I submitted another Livescan set and they were rejected again. Apparently, my fingertips are so worn (looking after horses and other work around my home?) that they just didn't take. Fortunately, Nevada was able to issue my CCW on the basis that name checks etc. after two attempts at a fingerprint check revealed no disqualifications.

I did ask LVMPD if that meant that I needn't wear gloves when committing crimes, but just got a strained smile from them.

I find it amusing that the CSI shows show single partial fingerprints on some pretty shaky substrates being identified all the time, but my ten-set on Livescan wasn't enough.

BTW, those who know, does that Congress reciprocity bill allow a California resident to carry in 49 states based on a non-resident permit issued by, say, Utah or Nevada? Does it apply in those states (2 IIRC) that do not currently issue CCW's and do not allow it.

[bwiese]

Looks like there's quite a bit of used Identix products on E-Bay at rational prices. (Identix TouchPrint seems to be one of the devices.) Unsure of what specifically is required of the device - connectivity etc.

[Gray Peterson]

Oregon LiveScan Specs

[Purple K]

2010 is proving to be very promising for gun owners.

[wildhawker]

Originally Posted by Purple K

2010 is proving to be very promising for gun owners.

[microwaveguy]

Originally Posted by 7x57

At the Cow Palace in the heart of enemy territory.

And Costa Mesa too, but the symbolism isn't quite as sweet.

7x57

I would try to be one of the first 100 in line


The other thought is there another facility that the sheriff can park for a few hours and borrow / rent equipment and process applicants or is there something i don't know and he needs his own machine ?

[wildhawker]

My local UPS Store has a LiveScan and regularly do FBI/DOJ scans for customers.

[Purple K]

For this to be truly successful we'll have to publicise the Oregon CHL requirements for documents required. Applicants would need to bring proof of shooting compitency with them to the location of the Live Scan operation. Oregon requires proof of successfully completing a basic pistol course. They don't specify what course, just something pistol related taught by an NRA instructor. We have five weeks until the COW Palace show to get the word out and make this happen.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by wildhawker

My local UPS Store has a LiveScan and regularly do FBI/DOJ scans for customers.

Will they rent the equipment out for a day or two?

[wildhawker]

I doubt it's "portable", but if we offer a substantial turnout it might be possible to negotiate. I'll put some feelers out.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by wildhawker

I doubt it's "portable", but if we offer a substantial turnout it might be possible to negotiate. I'll put some feelers out.

Doesn't it just plug in? I can't imagine it is terribly heavy. Does it require a network connection?

[dantodd]

Cross Match sells their portable ID500 with software for $7200. He'd have to supply a laptop.
That's the Florida contract price direct from MFG. I'm sure a municipal agency could do equally well, if not directly then through a distributor.

[Sgt Raven]

Originally Posted by Purple K

For this to be truly successful we'll have to publicise the Oregon CHL requirements for documents required. Applicants would need to bring proof of shooting compitency with them to the location of the Live Scan operation. Oregon requires proof of successfully completing a basic pistol course. They don't specify what course, just something pistol related taught by an NRA instructor. We have five weeks until the COW Palace show to get the word out and make this happen.

If the Sheriff came to the Cow Palace Gun Show there is a guy who gives a CCW class at the show, for those who need the certificate.

[Gray Peterson]

Here is the Oregon Revised Statutes on this issue:

(f) Demonstrates competence with a handgun by any one of the following:
(A) Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the State Department of Fish and Wildlife or a similar agency of another state if handgun safety was a component of the course;
(B) Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course if handgun safety was a component of the course;
(C) Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by law enforcement, community college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or a law enforcement agency if handgun safety was a component of the course;
(D) Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, reserve law enforcement officers or any other law enforcement officers if handgun safety was a component of the course;
(E) Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a handgun through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
(F) Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state, unless the license has been revoked; or
(G) Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a firearms instructor certified by a law enforcement agency or the National Rifle Association if handgun safety was a component of the course;

[pitchbaby]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

I don't think the reserve office concept is all that good of an idea at this time. It is exceedingly nebulous on certain legalities, and it comes so shortly before carry licensing is about to be liberalized nationwide that I'm not sure the rewards offset the risks.

In fact, I expect we'll have 49 state reciprocity in the next 18 months from Congress (you can carry in any state except carrying in your own requires your state's license.)

-Gene

I usually agree hook line and sinker with Gene. However, the way I understand the legislation that almost passed and will likely soon pass, I thought you had to have a permit from your home state for this mandated "reciprocity" to apply to you. What good is that for Californians and New Yorkers? Just because non-residents would be able to carry here with such legislation does not mean that our state legislature will follow suit and allow our state citizens the same rights.

Personally, I don't feel the "reserve" officer idea will effect my personal right to carry either way, but it still seems more valid than ever of an idea to level the playing field where the state legislature's REFUSE to listen to the people, or just straight up common sense!

Having gotten that out of my system, I think I can get a donation out to the good sheriff. Where do I send the check? Also, I am forwarding this thread to the CCW instructor I used in Reno, NV. During the class, she encourages her students to get an Oregon permit since it is so close to Nevada and California.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by Purple K

For this to be truly successful we'll have to publicise the Oregon CHL requirements for documents required. Applicants would need to bring proof of shooting compitency with them to the location of the Live Scan operation. Oregon requires proof of successfully completing a basic pistol course. They don't specify what course, just something pistol related taught by an NRA instructor. We have five weeks until the COW Palace show to get the word out and make this happen.

I suspect you could do all the paperwork and live scan at the show and forward your competency documentation later and he'll send the CCW in the mail. They'd probably have to wait on the background check etc. anyway.

[pitchbaby]

It would take about 10 days for the background results to get back. That is plenty of time to get a class together if you have NRA instructors on board with this plan.